Damn guys, I go camping for 3 days and up to 17 pages of intellectual arguments/discussion. I hardly expected A page of yammering.

^so your saying, if megs had never grabbed that gun in TFTH while he was begging for his life Prime would have still killed him on the spot and not brought him in for justice?

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. Hot Rod just got in the way. Megatron was an imminent threat of the absolute worst kind. He threatened both Earth and Cybertron with extinction (untold billions of lives threatened in The Ultimate Doom alone). Megatron could not be bargained with or reasoned with...all that aaaaaaaaannnd: Megatron DID infiltrate Autobot City and he and his troops killed off apparently almost every Autobot from Season 1 and would have killed more AND destroyed Autobot City AND would have went on to conquer the Earth and enslave the human race and then eventually destroyed it outright.

 

Optimus Prime, IMO, based on what I saw in TFTM, was going to kill Megatron--and every Decepticon luckless enough to cross his path--at the first opportunity

Precisely, and it was the same with Demolisher. Optimus was out for "blood", so to speak. No prisoners, no quarter asked or given. Find the Decepticons where they're hold up and terminate with extreme prejudice. That was the mission. End the war once and for all.

 

One of the things that makes this a little hard to call, in my opinion, is the fact that it felt to me that Prime was completely aware of (or at least suspected) the fact that Megatron was stalling and trying to put him on in some way. I think that he was waiting for Megatron to do something stupid before he was justified in maiming/mortally wounding/killing him, IE: if Megatron had actually been SINCERE in his surrender, Prime would have accepted it.

 

Though it is entirely possible that this is the same case in the M. Bay continuity, that all these killings are indeed morally justified terminations of dangerous criminals, it doesn't change the fact that we haven't been shown evidence for the two Cons that this discussion surrounds.

 

In the TFTM story, we witnessed the Decepticons (that were shortly thereafter shot to pieces by his Primeness himself), pillaging and murdering the Autobots of Autobot city before their termination took place.

In the Bay film we have only the assertion that "as a legal military action it was therefore justified" and the further assertion that all Decepticons= evil to go on.

 

So again I go back to the CONCLUSION that what we're really quibbling over is not the fact that Decepticons were killed, so much as they were killed for no reason that was apparent on screen; shown, stated, even hinted, or otherwise. Even a stated "It's time we stopped trying to negotiate with the Decepticons; their disregard for human life is too dangerous" would have looked better than the apparent randomness of the termination that took place.

^so your saying, if megs had never grabbed that gun in TFTH while he was begging for his life Prime would have still killed him on the spot and not brought him in for justice?

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. Hot Rod just got in the way. Megatron was an imminent threat of the absolute worst kind. He threatened both Earth and Cybertron with extinction (untold billions of lives threatened in The Ultimate Doom alone). Megatron could not be bargained with or reasoned with...all that aaaaaaaaannnd: Megatron DID infiltrate Autobot City and he and his troops killed off apparently almost every Autobot from Season 1 and would have killed more AND destroyed Autobot City AND would have went on to conquer the Earth and enslave the human race and then eventually destroyed it outright.

 

Optimus Prime, IMO, based on what I saw in TFTM, was going to kill Megatron--and every Decepticon luckless enough to cross his path--at the first opportunity

Precisely, and it was the same with Demolisher. Optimus was out for "blood", so to speak. No prisoners, no quarter asked or given. Find the Decepticons where they're hold up and terminate with extreme prejudice. That was the mission. End the war once and for all.

 

One of the things that makes this a little hard to call, in my opinion, is the fact that it felt to me that Prime was completely aware of (or at least suspected) the fact that Megatron was stalling and trying to put him on in some way. I think that he was waiting for Megatron to do something stupid before he was justified in maiming/mortally wounding/killing him, IE: if Megatron had actually been SINCERE in his surrender, Prime would have accepted it.

 

Though it is entirely possible that this is the same case in the M. Bay continuity, that all these killings are indeed morally justified terminations of dangerous criminals, it doesn't change the fact that we haven't been shown evidence for the two Cons that this discussion surrounds.

 

In the TFTM story, we witnessed the Decepticons (that were shortly thereafter shot to pieces by his Primeness himself), pillaging and murdering the Autobots of Autobot city before their termination took place.

In the Bay film we have only the assertion that "as a legal military action it was therefore justified" and the further assertion that all Decepticons= evil to go on.

 

So again I go back to the CONCLUSION that what we're really quibbling over is not the fact that Decepticons were killed, so much as they were killed for no reason that was apparent on screen; shown, stated, even hinted, or otherwise. Even a stated "It's time we stopped trying to negotiate with the Decepticons; their disregard for human life is too dangerous" would have looked better than the apparent randomness of the termination that took place.

 

I'm certain Prime saw Megs inching towards the gun, but I think Megs' fate was sealed. Prime was going to give Megs what-for, so to speak. Hot Rod just advanced the plot and killed off the more joyous period of TF history that was seasons 1 and 2. Prime tried the gloves-on approach with Megs. Over the past few millenia, it hadn't worked.

 

You're right in that TFTM provides sufficient exposition to support the theory that Prime was going to send Megatron on a one-wa trip to Boot Hill, while ROTF was so poorly written that the audience is having to do their work for them. We really should not have to rely on the backstory the comics provide as concerns the parameters of the joint Autobot/human task force. With that said, just going by what we saw in the film:

 

Demolishor notes that his cover has been blown, transforms to his base mode and careens through the mean streets of Shanghai, causing X-amounts of property damage, and I'm--willing to bet--a considerable loss of human life. Reason enough to ash him right then and there--which is what happened.

 

Sideways notes that both Demolishors and his OWN cover have been blown, and he takes off in vehicle mode, haphazardly careening through the mean streets of Shanghai, causing X-amounts of property damage, and who knows who or how many he actually injured or killed while in the act of taking flight. And they both RAN. They sealed their own fates, by action and allegiance. Besides, Sideways was with Demolishor, who was clearly with The Fallen, who was clearly going to 'harvest' our sun. The Autobots could not have known this at the time, but...they were CORRECT in assuming that the 'Cons they found were up to no good.

 

Sideways is an interesting case, with regards to his FUNCTION. He may be a coward, but the information he delivers is potentially crippling to the Autobot/human cause.

 

Demolishor was defiant to the end, too powerful, too committed to the cause, too dangerous AND mortally wounded to be imprisoned.

 

Exposition would have been great. Since it was beyond the writing team however, the above scenario is sufficient to tide me through. My lord, I'm still trying to get past the image of John Turturro's thonged ASS, like, right in my face. There's a reason right there for obliterating the enemy with prejudice of the most extreme kind right there.

^so your saying, if megs had never grabbed that gun in TFTH while he was begging for his life Prime would have still killed him on the spot and not brought him in for justice?

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. Hot Rod just got in the way. Megatron was an imminent threat of the absolute worst kind. He threatened both Earth and Cybertron with extinction (untold billions of lives threatened in The Ultimate Doom alone). Megatron could not be bargained with or reasoned with...all that aaaaaaaaannnd: Megatron DID infiltrate Autobot City and he and his troops killed off apparently almost every Autobot from Season 1 and would have killed more AND destroyed Autobot City AND would have went on to conquer the Earth and enslave the human race and then eventually destroyed it outright.

 

Optimus Prime, IMO, based on what I saw in TFTM, was going to kill Megatron--and every Decepticon luckless enough to cross his path--at the first opportunity

Precisely, and it was the same with Demolisher. Optimus was out for "blood", so to speak. No prisoners, no quarter asked or given. Find the Decepticons where they're hold up and terminate with extreme prejudice. That was the mission. End the war once and for all.

 

One of the things that makes this a little hard to call, in my opinion, is the fact that it felt to me that Prime was completely aware of (or at least suspected) the fact that Megatron was stalling and trying to put him on in some way. I think that he was waiting for Megatron to do something stupid before he was justified in maiming/mortally wounding/killing him, IE: if Megatron had actually been SINCERE in his surrender, Prime would have accepted it.

 

Though it is entirely possible that this is the same case in the M. Bay continuity, that all these killings are indeed morally justified terminations of dangerous criminals, it doesn't change the fact that we haven't been shown evidence for the two Cons that this discussion surrounds.

 

In the TFTM story, we witnessed the Decepticons (that were shortly thereafter shot to pieces by his Primeness himself), pillaging and murdering the Autobots of Autobot city before their termination took place.

In the Bay film we have only the assertion that "as a legal military action it was therefore justified" and the further assertion that all Decepticons= evil to go on.

 

So again I go back to the CONCLUSION that what we're really quibbling over is not the fact that Decepticons were killed, so much as they were killed for no reason that was apparent on screen; shown, stated, even hinted, or otherwise. Even a stated "It's time we stopped trying to negotiate with the Decepticons; their disregard for human life is too dangerous" would have looked better than the apparent randomness of the termination that took place.

 

 

 

Agreed...... :agree

Exposition would have been great. Since it was beyond the writing team however, the above scenario is sufficient to tide me through. My lord, I'm still trying to get past the image of John Turturro's thonged ASS, like, right in my face. There's a reason right there for obliterating the enemy with prejudice of the most extreme kind right there.

 

I agree there is a lot of evidence that can point to the deaths as being completely justified, and if you're willing to have a group discussion on it, (or think really hard on your own) you can find it. And if I read your statement correctly, then we also agree that the real crime here was a lack of exposition (and Turtrurro's butt :eek ) and I don't think anyone can really defend the movie for that.

 

I'm gonna use a little analogy: Let's say the film is like Michael Bay leading you on a tour of a warzone. As he's pointing at something he thought made a "cool action scene" (corvette cuts an audi in half! sweet!) you notice that he avoids and steps over something on the ground. On closer inspection you notice that it is "the unexploded landmine of unstated exposition". Now the good news is that you noticed it, so you don't feel as bad as if you'd stepped on it ( :awsum ) but let's face it; HE DIDN'T WARN YOU IT WAS THERE. So can you hold that against him? Heck yeah! And I will continue to do so until the third movie comes out and satisfies ALL my expectations for it (I was gonna settle for 'some' with ROTF, but I didn't get ANY!'), or Michael Bay apologizes to the fan community and remakes ROTF as a better film. (I think the Turturro scene more than justifies destroying every copy of the existing film. Am I kidding as I often am? Maybe, maybe not :) )

 

I'm certain Prime saw Megs inching towards the gun, but I think Megs' fate was sealed. Prime was going to give Megs what-for, so to speak. Hot Rod just advanced the plot and killed off the more joyous period of TF history that was seasons 1 and 2. Prime tried the gloves-on approach with Megs. Over the past few millenia, it hadn't worked.

I think this is one of those situations that is gonna come down to each individual's perception of the situation, cuz we'll never actually know what would have happened if Hot Rod hadn't shown up, as that wasn't part of the story that got told. :shrug

Did anyone see the last episode of TFAnimated. In that Prime had a perfect chance to destroy Megs but did not. He chose to take him into custody instead. I think that that is exactly what would have happened is HotRod had not steeped in and Megs had no weapon available.

So again I go back to the CONCLUSION that what we're really quibbling over is not the fact that Decepticons were killed, so much as they were killed for no reason that was apparent on screen; shown, stated, even hinted, or otherwise. Even a stated "It's time we stopped trying to negotiate with the Decepticons; their disregard for human life is too dangerous" would have looked better than the apparent randomness of the termination that took place.

Didn't the first TF movie give enough context? With the whole Autobot-Decepticon war explained, the Decepticons' intentions explained, and the Decepticons' brutality demonstrated?

You can say that these two in particular Decepticons weren't involved in that. But this is a war and we know what side they're on. The Autobots can't know every individual Decepticon personally. I don't find it to be a stretch what-so-ever for the audience to assume these guys got what they deserved.

You make a good point; if you saw the first film you could theoretically fill in all the plot holes on your own, but should you really have to?

 

I guess my argument (opinion?) is that, even in a film series, you have to take into account the fact that people are going to watch the sequel who did not watch the previous installment.

Every story, even if part of a series, must have just enough exposition in it that it can stand alone if it has to.

 

I think a good example of this is the 'Alvin Maker' book series that I've been reading, by Orson Scott Card. Each book has it's own theme and story, and some entries are better than others, but if by chance you happened to read just one, then you can still get the feel for the overarching story as well. Yes, reading all the entries (and in order :P )makes the experience richer and a bit clearer than coming in in the middle, but if you absolutely had to, you could.

 

For that reason I'm disinclined to give Bay a pass, just because he has the arrogance to think that everyone and their uncle saw the first one; it's just really questionable filmmaking, ya know?

 

Or, ehn, that's what I think. I could be wrong. :shrug

Did anyone see the last episode of TFAnimated. In that Prime had a perfect chance to destroy Megs but did not. He chose to take him into custody instead. I think that that is exactly what would have happened is HotRod had not steeped in and Megs had no weapon available.

No. That's not what would have happened. First off, Animated Optimus and G1 Optimus are two completely different characters with different motivations. TFA Optimus was a young, relatively inexperienced commander of a work crew who was thrust into protecting the All Spark. He hadn't been fighting the Decepticons, much less Megatron, for all that long. During his time on Earth, he had been acting more like a police officer than a soldier. G1 Optimus had been fighting Megatron for millions of years, They were personal enemies, mortal enemies with a lot of history and bad "blood" between them. In the 86 movie, it was made very clear that this was going to be a fight to the finish with no quarter asked or given. As Optimus himself said, "One shall stand, one shall fall." That was a battle to the death. G1 Optimus was not going to arrest Megatron, he was intending to kill him once and for all. Optimus in RotF is the same way. He is out to put an end to the war once and for all by hunting down every Decepticon on Earth where they hide and terminating them with extreme prejudice; no quarter asked or given.

^ I respect your oppinion but a lot of what you are saying is assumption. But then most of what we are all saying is assumption.

 

I wonder if there is a way to find out the original intention of the writers from the 86 movie to see what they would say about it?

No. That's not what would have happened. First off, Animated Optimus and G1 Optimus are two completely different characters with different motivations. TFA Optimus was a young, relatively inexperienced commander of a work crew who was thrust into protecting the All Spark. He hadn't been fighting the Decepticons, much less Megatron, for all that long. During his time on Earth, he had been acting more like a police officer than a soldier. G1 Optimus had been fighting Megatron for millions of years, They were personal enemies, mortal enemies with a lot of history and bad "blood" between them. In the 86 movie, it was made very clear that this was going to be a fight to the finish with no quarter asked or given. As Optimus himself said, "One shall stand, one shall fall." That was a battle to the death. G1 Optimus was not going to arrest Megatron, he was intending to kill him once and for all. Optimus in RotF is the same way. He is out to put an end to the war once and for all by hunting down every Decepticon on Earth where they hide and terminating them with extreme prejudice; no quarter asked or given.

There's still a large gap though between executing a guy like Megatron - civil war instigator, possible war criminal, party effectively responsible for the near-complete draining of Cybertron's resources and various other acts - and a guy like Sideways, whose chief crime was fleeing an armed, incoming enemy and not even fighting back when attacked.

 

I understand that in the post-9/11 era, executing a helpless foe seems perfectly acceptable in light of what said foe might do if they remain alive... but why not aim for a something a little higher-minded, a little less grey-area? Again - it wouldn't have killed Bay et al to (god forbid) depict Sideways as at least returning fire or otherwise acting in a way more easily interpreted as evil than 'well, he's a courier and he might have sensitive information.'

 

We can discuss the motivating factors involved all day, but it still remains that Sideswipe bisected a character that was, for all intents and purposes, an on-screen pacifist. And then he does a victory dance!

 

Classy. Real classy.