So much of the movie is left up to individual interpretation, however, that it just becomes bad, bad filmmaking. It's like the movie itself relied on stupidity to get to the next plot point because they either did not or could not dream up an intelligent scenario for pretty much anything.

 

I would imagine that, despite Jetfire's eventual defection, that he would have been--at the very least--tried for his crimes prior to his defection. And he should have been. He was a Decepticon seeker. It's a pretty elite group, and I don't imagine that you become a Seeker by not doing some very despicable things to beings all across the galaxy.

 

Wheelie was a little different in that he was forced into duty. But even with that, he's still responsible for whatever crimes he has committed, because he did commit them. There's always another alternative to slavery (such as Wheelie endured). Jetfire chose to literally kill himself (granted, Scorponok ultimately mortally wounded him) to 'do the right thing.' Given that, it does say quite a bit about the Autobot's pragmatism (putting it mildly) that both Decepticons articulated their change of allegiance to humans, as JOP stated. The Autobots engender no small amount of fear in their enemies. What have the Autobots themselves done to do so?

 

Which is where I come back to Sideswipe. I can choose to perceive the Shanghai chase scene in any fashion I choose, and even with that level of freedom...Sideways may or may not have injured/killed a human. It's certainly possible, given the nature of Sideways' chosen escape route, but the fact of the matter is: we don't actually see that. Sideswipe definitely looks less like someone stopping a dastardly threat to humanity and a lot more like a blood-lusting thug in that context. He does not appear at all heroic, and doesn't even clearly resemble someone who's just doing his job. He thoroughly enjoyed what he did to Sideways.

 

This is roughly in keeping with Sideswipe's bio. It's even closer to Sunstreaker's...who happens to be a complete sociopath.

 

That doesn't bother me. Just give me a context where the Autobots have gone from reluctanctly doing what THEY MUST to stop the Decepticon threat to where they are now stopping just short of parading around the town square with their enemies' decapitated heads. In the context we have been given, to me, there's no cause for it. Executing the enemies? YES. Doing so without blinking an eye? YES. Having a blast while doing so? I don't think so. We are given no reason at all to root for our primary protagonists, and this is one of the movies' biggest gaffes...because the actions the Autobots took were all completely justifiable.

 

As far as the assault in Shanghai went: forget NEST (which is hard, because they caused just as much damage--if not more--than the 'Cons did, and INSTIGATED THE ASSAULT, to boot). Optimus Prime's credo was ALWAYS to protect the humans. Protect the innocent bystanders. I don't recall Sideways killing/injuring anyone, but Demolishor most certainly DID. Prime has aeons of knowledge and expertise in the field of tactics and strategy, and he should be held ultimately responsible (along with the writers, of course!!!) for not doing more in the preparatory stages to ensure that the apprehension/termination of the Decepticon targets went as smoothly and uneventfully as possible.

 

The Shanghai assault should never have gone down the way it did. It would give the Decepticon TERRORISTS more fuel and anti-Autobot propaganda to swell their ranks (which is what happens IRL, if we're using the terrorist analogy), what with all the Autobot BRUTALITY going on. It would also let them know that the Autobots were coming, which--assuming the previous scenario held to be true, and Decepticons were jsut popping out of the woodwork--it would give the Decepticons a heads-up and give them the opportunity to coordinate their own efforts and encircle the enemy, who would have no idea as to what the 'Cons were doing because the Autobots apparently TAKE NO PRISONERS.

 

Bad writing, all around.

Sideswipe definitely looks less like someone stopping a dastardly threat to humanity and a lot more like a blood-lusting thug in that context. He does not appear at all heroic, and doesn't even clearly resemble someone who's just doing his job. He thoroughly enjoyed what he did to Sideways.

Yep, Sideswipe's an Autobot thug.

 

We are given no reason at all to root for our primary protagonists

Except that they're trying to protect our race from extinction.

 

Are they really? I mean, these Autobots? The Bayverse Autobots? The watchdogs don't give us all that much cause for comfort. A fair number of them view us in terms that are not all that much better then the Decepticons view of humanity. For instance, Ironhide was ready to go all buck-nutty on the people he's supposed to be protecting the moment a gun was pointed at him ('I'LL TEAR YOU APART!!!'), and while that was understandable given the context, he was just as ready to blast humans (and at least one dog) for much less in the first movie. I'm assuming Ironhide is Prime's second-in-command with Jazz gone, and that Ironhide's viewpoint would carry quite a bit of weight. I get less of a sense of them protecting us from extinction than I get of them happily carrying on the hostilities. I know it's the other way around. But I shouldn't have to do that for myself, given the basics of the TF franchise. ROTF made no overtures to illustrating the 'protect the humans' portion of the Autobot modus operandi--which is pretty much canon. Doing so makes the Autobots look infinitely less heroic, irregardless of the expeditiousness of their actions, and actually justifies-to some degree-Galloways' view of them.

 

When the thugs have center stage, and there is room for nothing else, that's what happens. Ideologies blur, and you forget who's who.

So much of the movie is left up to individual interpretation, however, that it just becomes bad, bad filmmaking. It's like the movie itself relied on stupidity to get to the next plot point because they either did not or could not dream up an intelligent scenario for pretty much anything.

 

I would imagine that, despite Jetfire's eventual defection, that he would have been--at the very least--tried for his crimes prior to his defection. And he should have been. He was a Decepticon seeker. It's a pretty elite group, and I don't imagine that you become a Seeker by not doing some very despicable things to beings all across the galaxy.

 

Wheelie was a little different in that he was forced into duty. But even with that, he's still responsible for whatever crimes he has committed, because he did commit them. There's always another alternative to slavery (such as Wheelie endured). Jetfire chose to literally kill himself (granted, Scorponok ultimately mortally wounded him) to 'do the right thing.' Given that, it does say quite a bit about the Autobot's pragmatism (putting it mildly) that both Decepticons articulated their change of allegiance to humans, as JOP stated. The Autobots engender no small amount of fear in their enemies. What have the Autobots themselves done to do so?

Well, first off, the Seekers in the movie-verse aren't the same as the Seekers from G1. They're not the elite group of Decepticon jets under Starscream. They were ancient Cybertronians, born to serve the Primes, and whose job it was to seek out suitable suns to feed the All Spark. Jetfire never committed any war crimes. Wheelie didn't either. He was simply a snoop. In fact, he was nothing more than a salvage bot forced into gathering intel for the 'Cons. He never committed any atrocities.

 

Which is where I come back to Sideswipe. I can choose to perceive the Shanghai chase scene in any fashion I choose, and even with that level of freedom...Sideways may or may not have injured/killed a human. It's certainly possible, given the nature of Sideways' chosen escape route, but the fact of the matter is: we don't actually see that. Sideswipe definitely looks less like someone stopping a dastardly threat to humanity and a lot more like a blood-lusting thug in that context. He does not appear at all heroic, and doesn't even clearly resemble someone who's just doing his job. He thoroughly enjoyed what he did to Sideways.

 

This is roughly in keeping with Sideswipe's bio. It's even closer to Sunstreaker's...who happens to be a complete sociopath.

 

That doesn't bother me. Just give me a context where the Autobots have gone from reluctanctly doing what THEY MUST to stop the Decepticon threat to where they are now stopping just short of parading around the town square with their enemies' decapitated heads. In the context we have been given, to me, there's no cause for it. Executing the enemies? YES. Doing so without blinking an eye? YES. Having a blast while doing so? I don't think so. We are given no reason at all to root for our primary protagonists, and this is one of the movies' biggest gaffes...because the actions the Autobots took were all completely justifiable.

Sideswipe has always been a bit of a "thug", even in G1. He's a street fighter. He has always liked to fight. He does enjoy it. Thus, his movie portrayal is pretty dead on.

 

As far as the assault in Shanghai went: forget NEST (which is hard, because they caused just as much damage--if not more--than the 'Cons did, and INSTIGATED THE ASSAULT, to boot). Optimus Prime's credo was ALWAYS to protect the humans. Protect the innocent bystanders. I don't recall Sideways killing/injuring anyone, but Demolishor most certainly DID. Prime has aeons of knowledge and expertise in the field of tactics and strategy, and he should be held ultimately responsible (along with the writers, of course!!!) for not doing more in the preparatory stages to ensure that the apprehension/termination of the Decepticon targets went as smoothly and uneventfully as possible.

 

The Shanghai assault should never have gone down the way it did. It would give the Decepticon TERRORISTS more fuel and anti-Autobot propaganda to swell their ranks (which is what happens IRL, if we're using the terrorist analogy), what with all the Autobot BRUTALITY going on. It would also let them know that the Autobots were coming, which--assuming the previous scenario held to be true, and Decepticons were jsut popping out of the woodwork--it would give the Decepticons a heads-up and give them the opportunity to coordinate their own efforts and encircle the enemy, who would have no idea as to what the 'Cons were doing because the Autobots apparently TAKE NO PRISONERS.

 

Bad writing, all around.

It wasn't bad writing. It was, in fact, a very realistic scenario and the consequences of that scenario became a main part of the plot. NEST and the Autobots had bad intelligence regarding the identities and numbers of their targets. This lead to things going to hell and gone, and thus more casualties and property damage than anticipated. NEST tried to contain Demolishor but he still managed to get loose, Thus, Prime was needed to intercept him before too much damage was caused. Optimus was their ace incase everything else failed.

 

Let me ask you this. What do you think would have happened if Optimus was with the NEST team to begin with, what would they have done if Demolishor still managed to get loose (which he would have done)?

So much of the movie is left up to individual interpretation, however, that it just becomes bad, bad filmmaking. It's like the movie itself relied on stupidity to get to the next plot point because they either did not or could not dream up an intelligent scenario for pretty much anything.

 

I would imagine that, despite Jetfire's eventual defection, that he would have been--at the very least--tried for his crimes prior to his defection. And he should have been. He was a Decepticon seeker. It's a pretty elite group, and I don't imagine that you become a Seeker by not doing some very despicable things to beings all across the galaxy.

 

Wheelie was a little different in that he was forced into duty. But even with that, he's still responsible for whatever crimes he has committed, because he did commit them. There's always another alternative to slavery (such as Wheelie endured). Jetfire chose to literally kill himself (granted, Scorponok ultimately mortally wounded him) to 'do the right thing.' Given that, it does say quite a bit about the Autobot's pragmatism (putting it mildly) that both Decepticons articulated their change of allegiance to humans, as JOP stated. The Autobots engender no small amount of fear in their enemies. What have the Autobots themselves done to do so?

Well, first off, the Seekers in the movie-verse aren't the same as the Seekers from G1. They're not the elite group of Decepticon jets under Starscream. They were ancient Cybertronians, born to serve the Primes, and whose job it was to seek out suitable suns to feed the All Spark. Jetfire never committed any war crimes. Wheelie didn't either. He was simply a snoop. In fact, he was nothing more than a salvage bot forced into gathering intel for the 'Cons. He never committed any atrocities.

 

Which is where I come back to Sideswipe. I can choose to perceive the Shanghai chase scene in any fashion I choose, and even with that level of freedom...Sideways may or may not have injured/killed a human. It's certainly possible, given the nature of Sideways' chosen escape route, but the fact of the matter is: we don't actually see that. Sideswipe definitely looks less like someone stopping a dastardly threat to humanity and a lot more like a blood-lusting thug in that context. He does not appear at all heroic, and doesn't even clearly resemble someone who's just doing his job. He thoroughly enjoyed what he did to Sideways.

 

This is roughly in keeping with Sideswipe's bio. It's even closer to Sunstreaker's...who happens to be a complete sociopath.

 

That doesn't bother me. Just give me a context where the Autobots have gone from reluctanctly doing what THEY MUST to stop the Decepticon threat to where they are now stopping just short of parading around the town square with their enemies' decapitated heads. In the context we have been given, to me, there's no cause for it. Executing the enemies? YES. Doing so without blinking an eye? YES. Having a blast while doing so? I don't think so. We are given no reason at all to root for our primary protagonists, and this is one of the movies' biggest gaffes...because the actions the Autobots took were all completely justifiable.

Sideswipe has always been a bit of a "thug", even in G1. He's a street fighter. He has always liked to fight. He does enjoy it. Thus, his movie portrayal is pretty dead on.

 

As far as the assault in Shanghai went: forget NEST (which is hard, because they caused just as much damage--if not more--than the 'Cons did, and INSTIGATED THE ASSAULT, to boot). Optimus Prime's credo was ALWAYS to protect the humans. Protect the innocent bystanders. I don't recall Sideways killing/injuring anyone, but Demolishor most certainly DID. Prime has aeons of knowledge and expertise in the field of tactics and strategy, and he should be held ultimately responsible (along with the writers, of course!!!) for not doing more in the preparatory stages to ensure that the apprehension/termination of the Decepticon targets went as smoothly and uneventfully as possible.

 

The Shanghai assault should never have gone down the way it did. It would give the Decepticon TERRORISTS more fuel and anti-Autobot propaganda to swell their ranks (which is what happens IRL, if we're using the terrorist analogy), what with all the Autobot BRUTALITY going on. It would also let them know that the Autobots were coming, which--assuming the previous scenario held to be true, and Decepticons were jsut popping out of the woodwork--it would give the Decepticons a heads-up and give them the opportunity to coordinate their own efforts and encircle the enemy, who would have no idea as to what the 'Cons were doing because the Autobots apparently TAKE NO PRISONERS.

 

Bad writing, all around.

It wasn't bad writing. It was, in fact, a very realistic scenario and the consequences of that scenario became a main part of the plot. NEST and the Autobots had bad intelligence regarding the identities and numbers of their targets. This lead to things going to hell and gone, and thus more casualties and property damage than anticipated. NEST tried to contain Demolishor but he still managed to get loose, Thus, Prime was needed to intercept him before too much damage was caused. Optimus was their ace incase everything else failed.

 

Let me ask you this. What do you think would have happened if Optimus was with the NEST team to begin with, what would they have done if Demolishor still managed to get loose, which he would have done?

 

By that same reasoning, I'd have to assume that both Sideways and Demolishor were really just chilling out and hadn't planned on hurting anyone, because...they were kind of just sitting there. Anything else we come up with outside of that is pure speculation on our part. Now, Jetfire and Wheelie hadn't committed any war crimes that we saw. And even that is not entirely true. The AllSpark shard that Wheelie was well on his way to appropriating was something the Fallen needed that would directly affect the immediate future of the planet and everyone on it. Even outside of that, though, this doesn't mean that they didn't commit any war crimes. I can't assume that they were 'innocent' Decepticons who never harmed a soul, for the simple fact that they ARE Decepticons. The Bayverse set that particular stage. Decepticons are supposed to be wiped out, with extreme prejudice because they are evil. Now, if there is a kinder, gentler brand of Decepticon out there that doesn't do anything to harm anyone in any way, shape or form, than the conversation is quickly becoming moot. You'd have to judge Demolishor and Sideways by the same criteria because they did nothing but flee armed hostiles on screen who instigated a conflict, and by that judgment, while the Autobots and NEST did not legally commit murder, morally, it might equate to just that.

 

My assumption that the Bayverse Seekers comprise an elite group of some status comes from Starscream's position and level of power, and the inferred power that Jetfire himself brought to bear. Beyond that, I will freely confess to a level of ignorance in this area. I haven't read the comics that may or may not discuss the backstory and role of the Bayverse Seekers in more detail. If there are comics that discuss this in detail, please let me know!

 

As far as Swiper goes, I know the details of his bio. I actually applaud the fact that the writer's definitely made Swiper feel like unmistakably like Swiper. But his sentiment is really the only one you hear from the Autobots, and that's my central problem...because no murder is being committed. The other Autobots are either a) complete dullards or b) completely silent. So the words and actions of Ironhide and Swiper and Prime are all we really have to go on. And their actions are cold and brutal. By necessity? Of course. And I'm completely in simpatico with you and everyone else arguing this point. I just wanted a countering view from either an Autobot or a human (preferably an Autobot) in the film. Just one line. I'd hope that the ficitonal reality illuminated some aspect of OUR reality, not merely wallow in the worst aspects of it with complete candor and gusto.

 

As far as how the Autobots/Nest handled the situation in Shanghai...what do I think would have happened if Optimus had been with the NEST team to begin with? I'd have hoped that Prime would have come up with something that would have significantly lessened--if not outright ELIMINATED--any human casualties (not to mention any potential Autobot casualties). Some kind of covert action to quietly dismantle the enemy? Autobot snipers from great range, armed with the appropriate weapons to eliminate both Sideways AND Demolishor? Something along those lines could have worked. There's distance between yourself and the target, and you have a greater chance of preventing the rampage we saw carried out at great length on-screen.

 

Had Demolishor gotten loose, then I suppose things would have had to transpire in the same fashion that we saw on screen. Or maybe, the Autobots and NEST could have enacted a Plan B--which they apparently did not have outside of letting Prime do his thing. But among Optimus Prime's greatest attributes is a capacity for tactical planning and military strategy that is legendary even on his homeworld. I'm not in the military, and I don't know from tactics or strategy. With that said, a mind of such great wisdom and depth and overpowering intelligence should have been able to come up with a lot more than what we saw on screen.

So much of the movie is left up to individual interpretation, however, that it just becomes bad, bad filmmaking. It's like the movie itself relied on stupidity to get to the next plot point because they either did not or could not dream up an intelligent scenario for pretty much anything.

 

I would imagine that, despite Jetfire's eventual defection, that he would have been--at the very least--tried for his crimes prior to his defection. And he should have been. He was a Decepticon seeker. It's a pretty elite group, and I don't imagine that you become a Seeker by not doing some very despicable things to beings all across the galaxy.

 

Wheelie was a little different in that he was forced into duty. But even with that, he's still responsible for whatever crimes he has committed, because he did commit them. There's always another alternative to slavery (such as Wheelie endured). Jetfire chose to literally kill himself (granted, Scorponok ultimately mortally wounded him) to 'do the right thing.' Given that, it does say quite a bit about the Autobot's pragmatism (putting it mildly) that both Decepticons articulated their change of allegiance to humans, as JOP stated. The Autobots engender no small amount of fear in their enemies. What have the Autobots themselves done to do so?

Well, first off, the Seekers in the movie-verse aren't the same as the Seekers from G1. They're not the elite group of Decepticon jets under Starscream. They were ancient Cybertronians, born to serve the Primes, and whose job it was to seek out suitable suns to feed the All Spark. Jetfire never committed any war crimes. Wheelie didn't either. He was simply a snoop. In fact, he was nothing more than a salvage bot forced into gathering intel for the 'Cons. He never committed any atrocities.

 

Which is where I come back to Sideswipe. I can choose to perceive the Shanghai chase scene in any fashion I choose, and even with that level of freedom...Sideways may or may not have injured/killed a human. It's certainly possible, given the nature of Sideways' chosen escape route, but the fact of the matter is: we don't actually see that. Sideswipe definitely looks less like someone stopping a dastardly threat to humanity and a lot more like a blood-lusting thug in that context. He does not appear at all heroic, and doesn't even clearly resemble someone who's just doing his job. He thoroughly enjoyed what he did to Sideways.

 

This is roughly in keeping with Sideswipe's bio. It's even closer to Sunstreaker's...who happens to be a complete sociopath.

 

That doesn't bother me. Just give me a context where the Autobots have gone from reluctanctly doing what THEY MUST to stop the Decepticon threat to where they are now stopping just short of parading around the town square with their enemies' decapitated heads. In the context we have been given, to me, there's no cause for it. Executing the enemies? YES. Doing so without blinking an eye? YES. Having a blast while doing so? I don't think so. We are given no reason at all to root for our primary protagonists, and this is one of the movies' biggest gaffes...because the actions the Autobots took were all completely justifiable.

Sideswipe has always been a bit of a "thug", even in G1. He's a street fighter. He has always liked to fight. He does enjoy it. Thus, his movie portrayal is pretty dead on.

 

As far as the assault in Shanghai went: forget NEST (which is hard, because they caused just as much damage--if not more--than the 'Cons did, and INSTIGATED THE ASSAULT, to boot). Optimus Prime's credo was ALWAYS to protect the humans. Protect the innocent bystanders. I don't recall Sideways killing/injuring anyone, but Demolishor most certainly DID. Prime has aeons of knowledge and expertise in the field of tactics and strategy, and he should be held ultimately responsible (along with the writers, of course!!!) for not doing more in the preparatory stages to ensure that the apprehension/termination of the Decepticon targets went as smoothly and uneventfully as possible.

 

The Shanghai assault should never have gone down the way it did. It would give the Decepticon TERRORISTS more fuel and anti-Autobot propaganda to swell their ranks (which is what happens IRL, if we're using the terrorist analogy), what with all the Autobot BRUTALITY going on. It would also let them know that the Autobots were coming, which--assuming the previous scenario held to be true, and Decepticons were jsut popping out of the woodwork--it would give the Decepticons a heads-up and give them the opportunity to coordinate their own efforts and encircle the enemy, who would have no idea as to what the 'Cons were doing because the Autobots apparently TAKE NO PRISONERS.

 

Bad writing, all around.

It wasn't bad writing. It was, in fact, a very realistic scenario and the consequences of that scenario became a main part of the plot. NEST and the Autobots had bad intelligence regarding the identities and numbers of their targets. This lead to things going to hell and gone, and thus more casualties and property damage than anticipated. NEST tried to contain Demolishor but he still managed to get loose, Thus, Prime was needed to intercept him before too much damage was caused. Optimus was their ace incase everything else failed.

 

Let me ask you this. What do you think would have happened if Optimus was with the NEST team to begin with, what would they have done if Demolishor still managed to get loose, which he would have done?

 

By that same reasoning, I'd have to assume that both Sideways and Demolishor were really just chilling out and hadn't planned on hurting anyone, because...they were kind of just sitting there. Anything else we come up with outside of that is pure speculation on our part. Now, Jetfire and Wheelie hadn't committed any war crimes that we saw. And even that is not entirely true. The AllSpark shard that Wheelie was well on his way to appropriating was something the Fallen needed that would directly affect the immediate future of the planet and everyone on it. Even outside of that, though, this doesn't mean that they didn't commit any war crimes. I can't assume that they were 'innocent' Decepticons who never harmed a soul, for the simple fact that they ARE Decepticons. The Bayverse set that particular stage. Decepticons are supposed to be wiped out, with extreme prejudice because they are evil. Now, if there is a kinder, gentler brand of Decepticon out there that doesn't do anything to harm anyone in any way, shape or form, than the conversation is quickly becoming moot. You'd have to judge Demolishor and Sideways by the same criteria because they did nothing but flee armed hostiles on screen who instigated a conflict, and by that judgment, while the Autobots and NEST did not legally commit murder, morally, it might equate to just that.

Not every soldier in an enemy army is a war criminal. In fact, most of the aren't. They're just grunts. Demolishor and Sideways were essentially foot soldiers. they were still the enemy though, and chose to remain so. Jetfire was a Decepticon only very early on, and defected almost immediately, once he realized what the Decepticons were all about. Remember, the Decepticons were originally just the military arm of the Cybertronian government under Megatron. They weren't yet called Decepticons yet though.

 

My assumption that the Bayverse Seekers comprise an elite group of some status comes from Starscream's position and level of power, and the inferred power that Jetfire himself brought to bear. Beyond that, I will freely confess to a level of ignorance in this area. I haven't read the comics that may or may not discuss the backstory and role of the Bayverse Seekers in more detail. If there are comics that discuss this in detail, please let me know!

Key word there: Assumption. Read Defiance some time. Watch the movie again too and read the comic adaption. All of them explain quite explicitly that the Seekers were ancient Transformers whose mission was to seek out suns for the original Primes, not the elite cadre of jets under Starscream's command. In the movie-verse, Starsream is not a Seeker.

 

As far as Swiper goes, I know the details of his bio. I actually applaud the fact that the writer's definitely made Swiper feel like unmistakably like Swiper. But his sentiment is really the only one you hear from the Autobots, and that's my central problem...because no murder is being committed. The other Autobots are either a) complete dullards or b) completely silent. So the words and actions of Ironhide and Swiper and Prime are all we really have to go on. And their actions are cold and brutal. By necessity? Of course. And I'm completely in simpatico with you and everyone else arguing this point. I just wanted a countering view from either an Autobot or a human (preferably an Autobot) in the film. Just one line. I'd hope that the ficitonal reality illuminated some aspect of OUR reality, not merely wallow in the worst aspects of it with complete candor and gusto.

You're not going to find it in that fight. You do find it elsewhere though. What we saw is an entirely realistic reaction from these characters in a battle. This fight wasn't "personal" between long-time foes with a direct grudge against the other as individuals. It was simply a matter of war. One side taking out an enemy enclave.

 

As far as how the Autobots/Nest handled the situation in Shanghai...what do I think would have happened if Optimus had been with the NEST team to begin with? I'd have hoped that Prime would have come up with something that would have significantly lessened--if not outright ELIMINATED--any human casualties (not to mention any potential Autobot casualties). Some kind of covert action to quietly dismantle the enemy? Autobot snipers from great range, armed with the appropriate weapons to eliminate both Sideways AND Demolishor? Something along those lines could have worked. There's distance between yourself and the target, and you have a greater chance of preventing the rampage we saw carried out at great length on-screen.

 

Had Demolishor gotten loose, then I suppose things would have had to transpire in the same fashion that we saw on screen. Or maybe, the Autobots and NEST could have enacted a Plan B--which they apparently did not have outside of letting Prime do his thing. But among Optimus Prime's greatest attributes is a capacity for tactical planning and military strategy that is legendary even on his homeworld. I'm not in the military, and I don't know from tactics or strategy. With that said, a mind of such great wisdom and depth and overpowering intelligence should have been able to come up with a lot more than what we saw on screen.

The problem is that if Optimus had been with Lennox' team, there would have been no backup to stop Demolishor once he got loose. There wouldn't have been a "plan B". Optimus was Plan-B. Had Optimus been with Lennox' team, it wouldn't have done any good. The situation played out too fast. Demolishor transformed and took off before anyone got off a shot. Even if Prime had been there, it wouldn't have changed anything for the better. It would have actually made things worse because there wouldn't have been any decent back-up to stop Demolishor's rampage down the highway. It is just that simple. It takes time to set up snipers. It takes planning and some idea of where you expect the enemy to go before hand. That means you need good intelligence. It's not something you decide upon after the battle has already begun and your quarry makes his move. The mission was a cluster **** from the beginning because of bad intel. NEST and the Autobots did the best they could with the information they had. They managed to take out Sideways with "relative" ease. It was Demolishor who was underestimated because of bad intel.

 

There's an old saying. "Hindsight is 20/20." Could they have come up with a better plan of attack knowing what they do know? Sure. However, they didn't have that information. They had far less information than they should have. Blame that on military intelligence, not on NEST, not on the Autobots, not on the writers. From a plot perspective, writing that scene the way they did was actually a good choice in order to set things up for later in the film. Without it, there would have been no reason for a conflict between NEST and Galloway, no impetus for Galloway to try and shut down NEST. Essentially, NEST was set up to fail in that mission by someone in the government or intelligence—intentionally or otherwise. It happens.

All of them explain quite explicitly that the Seekers were ancient Transformers whose mission was to seek out suns for the original Primes, not the elite cadre of jets under Starscream's command. In the movie-verse, Starsream is not a Seeker.

[tangent] I've missed a lot of the comics and Unicron trilogy cartoons... This is the first time I can remember hearing the term "seeker" actually used in a TF fiction. Otherwise I had only read it on message boards when people were describing the Decepticon jets. Was "seeker" used before in any official TF medium? [/tangent]

Yes, the term Seeker has been used in official fiction before, and yes, it is traditionally used to describe Starscream and the other Decepticon jets of similar design. It's just not what the term is being used for in the movie-verse.

Without it, there would have been no reason for a conflict between NEST and Galloway, no impetus for Galloway to try and shut down NEST. Essentially, NEST was set up to fail in that mission by someone in the government or intelligence—intentionally or otherwise. It happens.

I had no problem with the Shanghai scene the way it was. Having said that, was there really any reason to have Galloway and the conflict with NEST in the movie?

Yeah, there was. For one, it established consequences for that battle and showed that no everyone in the government trusts the Autobots, thus, it's a very realistic portrayal of the situation. Secondly, it provided another reason for the NEST team to be capable of traveling to Egypt with Prime's body. FI Galloway hadn't already ordered the Autobots to be shipped back to Diego Garcia, they would have needed to try and convince the government to provide transport to Egypt, which wouldn't have been likely. By setting up a conflict with Galloway, having him try and shut NEST down and then demand that the Autobots get shipped back to Diego Garcia, it gave NEST and the Autobots a ready transport to Egypt without having to jump through hoops to get one. The transport was provided for them. They then simply had to trick Galloway off the plane.

I dont know if anyone posted this but the whole opening sequence was the reverse on the Toon movie's opening. In that movie, Ironhide is shot at point blank range by Megs. Now we see a Con shot at point blank range by Prime.

 

For me, I looked at it as an extermination. We had cons doing bad things so they had to die.

Who said that they were armed with ordinary small arms? NEST had weapons specifically for taking down Transformers including 40 mm sabot rounds for their grenade launchers. Based on the comcis, I'd also hazzard to say that their ammunition for their rifles too was specially designed for use against Decepticons. So they weren't just using ordinary small arms.

 

Secondly, Intel is never irrelevant. Intel is one of the most important things any soldier can have. The quality of intel can make or break any mission. It is that important. On top of that, you can't just go into a heavily populated city with missiles and rockets and start shooting up the place. Not only that, but NEST didn't just charge in. If you watch, they were still reconnoitering the place trying to pinpoint their target before moving in for the kill. They were trying to gather the intel they needed to formulate a plan of attack. They didn't just charge in with guns blazing. In fact, It was Demolishor who made the first actual offensive move. The NEST team hadn't even fired a shot yet when Demolishor let loose.

Putting aside the ludicrousness that is the 40mm SABOT rounds... Clearly the weapons that the infantry were using proved quite ineffective against Demolishor. And why should this come as any great surprise? A man-portable weapon is always going to have trouble matching up to a vehicle-mounted weapon. Would you send a squad of infantry to destroy a tank with the best armour-piercing rifle rounds the military has to offer, or would you send a helicopter armed with anti-tank missiles?

 

And as for the subject of intel... irrespective of the usefulness or importance of good intel in modern warfare, it is completely irrelevant to our discussion, yes. You continue to ascribe the NEST team's tactical choices to their intel. Now, if they had received misleading intel, that caused them to pursue a wrong course of action, then I could see where you are coming from. But in this particular case, they received intel that was, at worst, vague - in which case the correct course of action would have been to proceed with extreme caution. Instead, the team deployed multiple, ineffective troops and allowed them to blunder into combat with a superior enemy.

 

Seriously, if the NEST infantry were doing such a great job of scouting out the location of the Decepticons, then why did Demolishor freak out and attack? If the NEST infantry were being so stealthy in their scouting which is, generally, a requisite part of scouting then how did Demolishor detect them and from this, decide that the best course of action was to completely blow his cover?

 

Furthermore, the quality of intel utterly fails to explain why the helicopters remained in close proximity to the the enemy, or why the majority of the team's Autobots were in reserve, or any number of other badly written particulars of the Shanghai scene. (And I'm still waiting for answers on Ironhide's contribution to the fight, the Arcee triplets disappearance from the chase, or Sideswipe's ability to near-instantaneously catch up with his target.)

 

Prepare an air strike of "epic proportions" in a heavily populated city?

Yeah, you raise a great point. Releasing a hostile alien organism with incredible destructive potential into the greater civilian population was clearly the better route to go...

 

No way. First off, the Chinese government would have never allowed it. Secondly, that would have blown the secret wide open, something they were trying above all else to prevent. They had to keep things under wraps. This was a covert operation. Air strikes are not covert by any stretch of the imagination. Third, it would more than likely caused even more destruction. This mission was supposed to be a surgical strike, not a all out melee. Get in, eliminate the targets, and get out with the general populous none the wiser. That was the mission. An air strike is not surgical, nor covert.

First off, the Chinese government are already allowing American troops to operate on their soil - if they can swallow that, then they can swallow anything. Secondly, blowing up Demolishor and claiming it was an industrial explosion is a far more believable story than claiming that the area is suffering a chemical spill and then allowing a giant robot to rampage all across Shanghai. Thirdly, I'm not sure what part of the operation was meant to be covert anyhow - oh, wait, I remember - the climax of the first film happened in LA, not Mission City, and was successfully covered up by the US government. :roll

 

Fourthly, dropping a couple of precision missiles on Demolishor after quietly establishing his location would have absolutely constituted a surgical strike. It's the very definition of a surgical strike - neutralizing the enemy in one swift, precise motion. The only way it could not be a surgical strike is if you pretend that the modern militaries of the world do not have access to laser-guided bombs, cruise missiles, and apparently prototype railguns.

 

As for the sisters, if you think human soldiers aren't going to be effective against Demolishor, why would you think that those three would be? They aren't much bigger (only seven feet tall). Yes, they're fast, and their weapons are powerful for their size, but they aren't exactly heavy-hitters.

Their weapons are, however, of Cybertronian origin - which makes them more effective than whatever the local footsloggers are carrying. They are also larger and stronger than mere humans, and could easily carry a human-manufactured weapon - say, an anti-tank rocket launcher - by themselves. So why keep them out of the fight?

 

Also, letting Sideways would not have been a small price to pay. It would have been complete mission failure. The mission was to destroy all Decepticons in the area, let none escape. So no, letting Sideway get away was not an option. NEST and the Autobots did the best they could with the intel they were given.

Was that stated in the film? That it was a mission to completely eradicate all Decepticons in the area, and that the mission would be viewed as a complete failure by the higher authorities if even one Decepticon escaped? Because I'm pretty sure the mission was being judged, at least in part, by how many civilian and military casualties were incurred inside the borders of an already touchy world superpower. That's why Galloway was there, right?

 

Let's go further: what if Sideways was the same size as Wheelie? What if Sideways was even smaller than Wheelie? Would the mission have been judged a failure then? What if Sideways never even alerted the NEST team to his presence, and the NEST team went way never knowing there was a second Decepticon - would the mission have been judged a failure then?

 

So yes, the Sisters, Sideswipe, and the twins did have to be going after Sideways. That was their mission. Each team was given a job, and they did it. Unfortunately, there were a lot of casualties because they didn't have the right intelligence going in.

Yeah, they didn't have the right intelligence going in. They didn't have the intelligence not to deploy infantry against a giant alien practically impervious to bullets and with enormous destructive abilities, or to keep the helicopters out of harms way, or have the humans chasing the little Decepticon and the Autobots fight the big Decepticon... oh yeah, definitely a failure of intelligence.

Except that they're trying to protect our race from extinction.

I'm pretty sure that as a general rule, any time the narrative enters "The ends justify the means" territory, then the heroism stops right there. Just a thought.

 

Let me ask you this. What do you think would have happened if Optimus was with the NEST team to begin with, what would they have done if Demolishor still managed to get loose (which he would have done)?

If Prime had been involved?

 

Demolishor would never had gotten loose...

Except that they're trying to protect our race from extinction.

I'm pretty sure that as a general rule, any time the narrative enters "The ends justify the means" territory, then the heroism stops right there. Just a thought.

 

Let me ask you this. What do you think would have happened if Optimus was with the NEST team to begin with, what would they have done if Demolishor still managed to get loose (which he would have done)?

If Prime had been involved?

 

Demolishor would never had gotten loose...

Sounds like a reasonable, short, and to the point argument to me...

 

But the REAL reason I wanted to post was this:

 

Yep, Sideswipe's an Autobot thug.

Now I'm picturing Sideswipe all 'pimped out' and making a rap video with the twins. *shudders* :lol