^^^^ I must have missed all that in the movie....

First off, there is no indication that he even considered it, and his bio also certainly suggests otherwise. Secondly, had he wanted to defect, he could have done so at any time before the assault, and could have surrendered instead of running. the very fact that he took off like a bat outta hell proves that he was Decepticon through and through.

But you said so yourself - the Autobots arrived on a seek and destroy mission! How is Sideways supposed to surrender to a group that was there to terminate their targets with, to use your turn of phrase, 'extreme prejudice'? Indeed, it's interesting to note that the two Decepticons that did defect - Wheelie and Jetfire - defected to humans.

 

Now to be fair, I very much doubt that Sideways intended to defect - I'm just pointing out the logical inconsistency here in suggesting that the Autobots had no intention of being merciful, and yet Sideways could have easily defected (or at least surrendered himself into custody) by throwing himself on their mercy.

 

Also, I'm still waiting on some kind of explanation as to how what Sideswipe did could be considered remotely heroic...

First off, there is no indication that he even considered it, and his bio also certainly suggests otherwise. Secondly, had he wanted to defect, he could have done so at any time before the assault, and could have surrendered instead of running. the very fact that he took off like a bat outta hell proves that he was Decepticon through and through.

But you said so yourself - the Autobots arrived on a seek and destroy mission! How is Sideways supposed to surrender to a group that was there to terminate their targets with, to use your turn of phrase, 'extreme prejudice'? Indeed, it's interesting to note that the two Decepticons that did defect - Wheelie and Jetfire - defected to humans.

 

Now to be fair, I very much doubt that Sideways intended to defect - I'm just pointing out the logical inconsistency here in suggesting that the Autobots had no intention of being merciful, and yet Sideways could have easily defected (or at least surrendered himself into custody) by throwing himself on their mercy.

 

Also, I'm still waiting on some kind of explanation as to how what Sideswipe did could be considered remotely heroic...

Had he wanted to defect, he would have done so long before the Autobots' mission began. That's my whole point. Demolishor didn't beg for mercy, he didn't surrender. He was defiant to the end. Sideways didn't even try to surrender. He ran, even before the Autobots spotted him, causing major property damage along the way. He could have yelled out that he was surrendering, and wanted to defect. He could have put up no resistance. He chose to run, he chose to remain a Decepticon. He chose to remain a target. He paid the price for that choice.

 

As for Wheelie and Jetfire, Jetfire had long ago defected to the side of the Autobots, long before leaving Cybertron for Earth. He defected very early in the war once he realized the true nature of the Decepticons. Wheelie was essentially a slave of the Deceptiocns, forced into serving them through fear and intimidation. Once he was given the opportunity to defect, he did so without a moment's hesitation.

Nah, 4RL, I don't hate you! I think it's great conversation. Except now most everything is being repeated. I'm not saying this about YOU, but just in general. For example, Wheelie and Jetfire just came up and I'm sure we already discussed them earlier...

 

Phew! There's a fine line between 'confident' and 'arrogant' and I'm always scared I'm going to cross it... we now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

Had he wanted to defect, he would have done so long before the Autobots' mission began. That's my whole point. Demolishor didn't beg for mercy, he didn't surrender. He was defiant to the end. Sideways didn't even try to surrender. He ran, even before the Autobots spotted him, causing major property damage along the way. He could have yelled out that he was surrendering, and wanted to defect. He could have put up no resistance. He chose to run, he chose to remain a Decepticon. He chose to remain a target. He paid the price for that choice.

 

As for Wheelie and Jetfire, Jetfire had long ago defected to the side of the Autobots, long before leaving Cybertron for Earth. He defected very early in the war once he realized the true nature of the Decepticons. Wheelie was essentially a slave of the Deceptiocns, forced into serving them through fear and intimidation. Once he was given the opportunity to defect, he did so without a moment's hesitation.

 

I've been trying to go over the scene in my memory to see how the whole thing fit together... humans 'sneaking' around... Demolisher transforms and gooshes a bunch of them, and then he and sideways take off, ostensibly in different directions.

 

Could Sideways have surrendered at this point? Maybe. Or did he panic and dash?

 

I guess the argument against "dashing in a panic" could be that I just remembered the Twins were not really allowing for this to be a "sneaking mission", goading the Decepticons to "come out and play", so the Cons knew they were coming, actually giving them plenty of time to surrender before hand.

 

Now, did they KNOW they COULD surrender? That's an interesting question, one which the answer to could change the course of this entire discussion. But the movie didn't give us an answer so discussing it isn't actually going to get us anywhere.

 

I guess the polite thing the filmmakers COULD have done, was have the Twins amend their message to say. "Hey, hey, hey; any cons' in the area got about 3 minutes to surrender and then it's time to play!". But again, moot point.

 

Oh, on the subject of wheelie above, I doubt any of the Autobots would have found him dangerous enough to waste the ammo it would have taken to kill him, so I have a feeling he was actually pretty safe. I can totally see one of the smaller bots like Arcee or her sisters catching him and abusing him playfully (much the way Mikaela did). :lol

Nah, 4RL, I don't hate you! I think it's great conversation. Except now most everything is being repeated. I'm not saying this about YOU, but just in general. For example, Wheelie and Jetfire just came up and I'm sure we already discussed them earlier...

 

Phew! There's a fine line between 'confident' and 'arrogant' and I'm always scared I'm going to cross it... we now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

Had he wanted to defect, he would have done so long before the Autobots' mission began. That's my whole point. Demolishor didn't beg for mercy, he didn't surrender. He was defiant to the end. Sideways didn't even try to surrender. He ran, even before the Autobots spotted him, causing major property damage along the way. He could have yelled out that he was surrendering, and wanted to defect. He could have put up no resistance. He chose to run, he chose to remain a Decepticon. He chose to remain a target. He paid the price for that choice.

 

As for Wheelie and Jetfire, Jetfire had long ago defected to the side of the Autobots, long before leaving Cybertron for Earth. He defected very early in the war once he realized the true nature of the Decepticons. Wheelie was essentially a slave of the Deceptiocns, forced into serving them through fear and intimidation. Once he was given the opportunity to defect, he did so without a moment's hesitation.

 

I've been trying to go over the scene in my memory to see how the whole thing fit together... humans 'sneaking' around... Demolisher transforms and gooshes a bunch of them, and then he and sideways take off, ostensibly in different directions.

 

Could Sideways have surrendered at this point? Maybe. Or did he panic and dash?

 

I guess the argument against "dashing in a panic" could be that I just remembered the Twins were not really allowing for this to be a "sneaking mission", goading the Decepticons to "come out and play", so the Cons knew they were coming, actually giving them plenty of time to surrender before hand.

 

Now, did they KNOW they COULD surrender? That's an interesting question, one which the answer to could change the course of this entire discussion. But the movie didn't give us an answer so discussing it isn't actually going to get us anywhere.

 

I guess the polite thing the filmmakers COULD have done, was have the Twins amend their message to say. "Hey, hey, hey; any cons' in the area got about 3 minutes to surrender and then it's time to play!". But again, moot point.

 

Oh, on the subject of wheelie above, I doubt any of the Autobots would have found him dangerous enough to waste the ammo it would have taken to kill him, so I have a feeling he was actually pretty safe. I can totally see one of the smaller bots like Arcee or her sisters catching him and abusing him playfully (much the way Mikaela did). :lol

Pretty much. In fact, the Autobots wouldn't have even needed ot waste any ammo on Wheelie. They cold just step on him. He's that small.

Had he wanted to defect, he would have done so long before the Autobots' mission began. That's my whole point. Demolishor didn't beg for mercy, he didn't surrender. He was defiant to the end. Sideways didn't even try to surrender. He ran, even before the Autobots spotted him, causing major property damage along the way. He could have yelled out that he was surrendering, and wanted to defect. He could have put up no resistance. He chose to run, he chose to remain a Decepticon. He chose to remain a target. He paid the price for that choice.

Wait, wait. Wheelie was a slave to the Decepticons, forced into serving through fear and intimidation, and Sideways is different... how? I mean it's not as if they guy is particularly big or powerful by Decepticon standards, and he's hardly demonstrated a steel backbone. Did he run to Demolishor's aid? Hardly... he ran away from the fighting. Why is it so hard to believe that when the firing began, Sideways had a sudden change of heart?

 

Also, smething else I'm curious about: the NEST team identified Demolishor, and then chose to... what? Surround him with human infantry? BRILLIANT PLAN, GUYS. We're talking about a team that's spent two years working with and against the Transformer race, and when up against what well may have been, at the point, one of if not the biggest Transformer they've ever faced, these guys deploy... light caliber weapons. Fantastic.

 

Oh sure, once Demolishor transformed and started smashing up the locale, NEST deployed helicopters (within physical reach of the target, another sensible move) and started firing off rockets, but... if Demolishor was so dangerous, and this was a seek and destroy mission, then why didn't NEST just pour rockets on to begin with and go from there? Why not have Prime and the other Autobots all on-site, ready to go, instead of semi-reserve?

 

If you want to talk about wanton destruction and property damage, let's begin with the NEST team that apparently doesn't know what a decapitation strike is (both literally and figuratively.)

Had he wanted to defect, he would have done so long before the Autobots' mission began. That's my whole point. Demolishor didn't beg for mercy, he didn't surrender. He was defiant to the end. Sideways didn't even try to surrender. He ran, even before the Autobots spotted him, causing major property damage along the way. He could have yelled out that he was surrendering, and wanted to defect. He could have put up no resistance. He chose to run, he chose to remain a Decepticon. He chose to remain a target. He paid the price for that choice.

Wait, wait. Wheelie was a slave to the Decepticons, forced into serving through fear and intimidation, and Sideways is different... how? I mean it's not as if they guy is particularly big or powerful by Decepticon standards, and he's hardly demonstrated a steel backbone. Did he run to Demolishor's aid? Hardly... he ran away from the fighting. Why is it so hard to believe that when the firing began, Sideways had a sudden change of heart?

Sideways was a coward, but he served as a Decepticon willingly. His bio specifically states that he allied himself with Demolishor for protection from the Autobots, much like he had always done on Cybertron–remaining in the shadow of larger Decepticons as stated here:

 

Back on CYBERTRON, SIDEWAYS was a simple courier who avoided combat at all costs. He tried to always remain in the shadow of larger DECEPTICONS, where the AUTOBOTS might not notice him. On Earth, he's keeping much the same practice. He teamed up with DEMOLISHER early on, and hopes that if the AUTOBOTS find them, the CONSTRUCTICON can keep him safe.

 

He was Decepticon through and through, but preferred to let the larger cons do the fighting for him. Essentially, he was the lowest of the low, a real bottom feeder.

 

Wheelie, on the other hand, was quite litterally force to be a Deceptiocn. His bio also bears this out, as does his comments in the movie itself after learning that Jetfire defected. To quote (or as close as I can remember), "You mean I don't have to be a Decepticon? I wanna defect too!" or something to that effect.

 

As his bio reads:

 

AUTOBOT WHEELIE never really wanted to be a Decepticon. It's just that, when people start yelling at him, he tends to do whatever they say. He's easily starled, and simple to scare. His tiny size makes him an ideal spy, and even though he doesn't like or agree with the DECEPTICONS, they scare him so much doesn't know what to do except obey.

 

Wheelie was essentially a slave to the fear instilled in him by the larger 'cons. He obeyed because he knew he'd be squashed like a bug if he didn't.

 

Also, smething else I'm curious about: the NEST team identified Demolishor, and then chose to... what? Surround him with human infantry? BRILLIANT PLAN, GUYS. We're talking about a team that's spent two years working with and against the Transformer race, and when up against what well may have been, at the point, one of if not the biggest Transformer they've ever faced, these guys deploy... light caliber weapons. Fantastic.

 

Oh sure, once Demolishor transformed and started smashing up the locale, NEST deployed helicopters (within physical reach of the target, another sensible move) and started firing off rockets, but... if Demolishor was so dangerous, and this was a seek and destroy mission, then why didn't NEST just pour rockets on to begin with and go from there? Why not have Prime and the other Autobots all on-site, ready to go, instead of semi-reserve?

 

If you want to talk about wanton destruction and property damage, let's begin with the NEST team that apparently doesn't know what a decapitation strike is (both literally and figuratively.)

Well, they did have Autobots on site, namely Ironhide. Optimus was the "backup" in case Demolishor broke loose. It's always a smart move to have some reserves, preferably an ace in the hole. Optimus was that Ace in the hole.

 

Secondly, as for NEST not going in with rockets and all guns blazing, the mission was also covert under the cover story of a chemical spill, so as to keep the existence of the Autobots and Decepticons hidden from the general populous. You go in with missiles, and jets, etc. You're going to attract too much attention.

Sideways was a coward, but he served as a Decepticon willingly. His bio specifically states that he allied himself with Demolishor for protection from the Autobots, much like he had always done on Cybertron–remaining in the shadow of larger Decepticons as stated here...

Firstly, if we need to turn to the toy biographies for clarification on a plot point in the film, then maybe the film isn't doing such a good job of telling a clear and concise narrative, no?

 

Secondly, he allied himself with Demolishor for protection... from the Autobots. I'm sure it's wholly unintentional, but even his bio makes it sound like the Autobots are vicious thugs! :lol

 

Wheelie, on the other hand, was quite litterally force to be a Deceptiocn. His bio also bears this out, as does his comments in the movie itself after learning that Jetfire defected. To quote (or as close as I can remember), "You mean I don't have to be a Decepticon? I wanna defect too!" or something to that effect.

 

As his bio reads:

 

AUTOBOT WHEELIE never really wanted to be a Decepticon. It's just that, when people start yelling at him, he tends to do whatever they say. He's easily starled, and simple to scare. His tiny size makes him an ideal spy, and even though he doesn't like or agree with the DECEPTICONS, they scare him so much doesn't know what to do except obey.

*cough* His tiny size makes him an ideal courier *cough*

 

Seriously, we could go round and round on this, but as I said earlier, I'm not going to attempt to argue justification on the killing of Sideways. In the universe that the filmmakers have created, virtually anything is justifiable. All I'm saying is that they've done a lousy job of depicting Sideswipe as a heroic good guy, and they've done a lousy job of depicting Sideways as a villainous bad guy.

 

Well, they did have Autobots on site, namely Ironhide. Optimus was the "backup" in case Demolishor broke loose. It's always a smart move to have some reserves, preferably an ace in the hole. Optimus was that Ace in the hole.

Ah yes, Ironhide... that was quite the shot of him transforming, wasn't it? Swelling score, parts rotating into place, weapons deploying and readying and then... what does he do, exactly? I for one cannot remember. And is it any surprise that Demolishor broke loose considering that the forces on site made zero attempt to restrain him? (Unless you want to tell me that the humans had little chance of keeping a big guy like Demolishor down by themselves, in which case, EXACTLY.)

 

And Optimus was an ace in the hole? That's great. What were the twins doing? Where were the Arcee triplets prior to Sideways making a break for it? How about Sideswipe - why was he in reserve also? What about the other Autobots - exactly how much force could have been brought to bear in a single strike and more importantly, why wasn't it?

 

Secondly, as for NEST not going in with rockets and all guns blazing, the mission was also covert under the cover story of a chemical spill, so as to keep the existence of the Autobots and Decepticons hidden from the general populous. You go in with missiles, and jets, etc. You're going to attract too much attention.

And a great job they did too!

 

And Demolishor almost certainly killed multiple civilians during his rampage. Totally worth the cover story, right? Of course, the good guys could have just dropped a barrage of missiles on top of him and pretended it was an industrial explosion... no, they public would never have bought that one, far too unlikely. :roll

 

Let's be blunt: action writers have, in the past, set up circumstances so that the hero of the piece can do something dramatic and visually spectacular. In this regard, Orci and Kurtzman are no different. Where they diverge is in the set-up - Orci and Kurtzman have demonstrated a tendency to make their characters do incredibly dumb things in order to ensure a payoff moments later.

Sideways was a coward, but he served as a Decepticon willingly. His bio specifically states that he allied himself with Demolishor for protection from the Autobots, much like he had always done on Cybertron–remaining in the shadow of larger Decepticons as stated here...

Firstly, if we need to turn to the toy biographies for clarification on a plot point in the film, then maybe the film isn't doing such a good job of telling a clear and concise narrative, no?

 

Secondly, he allied himself with Demolishor for protection... from the Autobots. I'm sure it's wholly unintentional, but even his bio makes it sound like the Autobots are vicious thugs! :lol

 

Wheelie, on the other hand, was quite litterally force to be a Deceptiocn. His bio also bears this out, as does his comments in the movie itself after learning that Jetfire defected. To quote (or as close as I can remember), "You mean I don't have to be a Decepticon? I wanna defect too!" or something to that effect.

 

As his bio reads:

 

AUTOBOT WHEELIE never really wanted to be a Decepticon. It's just that, when people start yelling at him, he tends to do whatever they say. He's easily starled, and simple to scare. His tiny size makes him an ideal spy, and even though he doesn't like or agree with the DECEPTICONS, they scare him so much doesn't know what to do except obey.

*cough* His tiny size makes him an ideal courier *cough*

 

Seriously, we could go round and round on this, but as I said earlier, I'm not going to attempt to argue justification on the killing of Sideways. In the universe that the filmmakers have created, virtually anything is justifiable. All I'm saying is that they've done a lousy job of depicting Sideswipe as a heroic good guy, and they've done a lousy job of depicting Sideways as a villainous bad guy.

The toy bios are simply to illustrate the differences between Sideways and Wheelie. Sideways was a Decepticon through and through. He's like that little toady in a gang that clings to the biggest bully in it to make himself feel "tough" while deep down he's a coward. Wheelie was the little victim of said bully being forced into doing things he'd rather not. Also, Wheelie wasn't a courier. He was used as a snoop.

 

Well, they did have Autobots on site, namely Ironhide. Optimus was the "backup" in case Demolishor broke loose. It's always a smart move to have some reserves, preferably an ace in the hole. Optimus was that Ace in the hole.

Ah yes, Ironhide... that was quite the shot of him transforming, wasn't it? Swelling score, parts rotating into place, weapons deploying and readying and then... what does he do, exactly? I for one cannot remember. And is it any surprise that Demolishor broke loose considering that the forces on site made zero attempt to restrain him? (Unless you want to tell me that the humans had little chance of keeping a big guy like Demolishor down by themselves, in which case, EXACTLY.)

 

And Optimus was an ace in the hole? That's great. What were the twins doing? Where were the Arcee triplets prior to Sideways making a break for it? How about Sideswipe - why was he in reserve also? What about the other Autobots - exactly how much force could have been brought to bear in a single strike and more importantly, why wasn't it?

The twins were being idiots and decoys to draw any other 'cons out. Arcee and her sisters, and Sideswipe were also on the prowl for other 'cons. The Autobots weren't all clustered together as a single group, nor was the Nest team. They were all broken down into smaller squads.

 

Secondly, as for NEST not going in with rockets and all guns blazing, the mission was also covert under the cover story of a chemical spill, so as to keep the existence of the Autobots and Decepticons hidden from the general populous. You go in with missiles, and jets, etc. You're going to attract too much attention.

And a great job they did too!

 

And Demolishor almost certainly killed multiple civilians during his rampage. Totally worth the cover story, right? Of course, the good guys could have just dropped a barrage of missiles on top of him and pretended it was an industrial explosion... no, they public would never have bought that one, far too unlikely. :roll

 

Let's be blunt: action writers have, in the past, set up circumstances so that the hero of the piece can do something dramatic and visually spectacular. In this regard, Orci and Kurtzman are no different. Where they diverge is in the set-up - Orci and Kurtzman have demonstrated a tendency to make their characters do incredibly dumb things in order to ensure a payoff moments later.

Without question, which is why they were in such hot water with Washington after the mission. It was a debacle. They had underestimated the 'cons, particularly Demolishor. They weren't expecting that big of a Decepticon.

The toy bios are simply to illustrate the differences between Sideways and Wheelie. Sideways was a Decepticon through and through. He's like that little toady in a gang that clings to the biggest bully in it to make himself feel "tough" while deep down he's a coward. Wheelie was the little victim of said bully being forced into doing things he'd rather not. Also, Wheelie wasn't a courier. He was used as a snoop.

Eh, I get what you are saying but the difference on celluloid was minimal. I would have had no problem with the film demonstrating the depths of Sideways' craven cowardice and evil ways; unfortunately, the filmmakers did not feel this was a subject worth exploring. (Imagine if Sideways had grabbed a random child on his way through the tenement, and then threatened to kill said child unless Sideswipe backed off - that would have illustrated the characters of both quite nicely.)

 

The twins were being idiots and decoys to draw any other 'cons out. Arcee and her sisters, and Sideswipe were also on the prowl for other 'cons. The Autobots weren't all clustered together as a single group, nor was the Nest team. They were all broken down into smaller squads.

That's brilliant - the Autobots bring the twins, who are basically stupid and give away the Autobots presence. Big hitters such as Sideswipe, and not-so-big-but-still-bigger-than-a-human hitters like the Arcee triplets, get relegated to patrol duty whilst squishy infantry get the unenviable task of restraining a robot so big, he has his own break room and microwave.

 

And why they weren't all clustered together I don't know, considering that they knew full well where the primary target was!

 

Without question, which is why they were in such hot water with Washington after the mission. It was a debacle. They had underestimated the 'cons, particularly Demolishor. They weren't expecting that big of a Decepticon.

Underestimated how? I imagine the entire conversation prior to the attack went something like this:

 

Lennox: "Check this guy out, Op. He's a Terex earth mover."

Optimus: "Is that big?"

Lennox: "Huge. Biggest vehicle of its kind. Massive."

Optimus: "Then we must approach with great caution."

Lennox: "Great caution? Nah. We'll use rifles."

Optimus: "..."

Lennox: "It'll be great! Trust me. Remember that time I saved your ass? I know what I'm doing!"

Optimus: "He will be big. Very big. We must be careful."

Lennox: "Pshaw. Guy probably turns into a toaster or something."

Optimus: "I do not think he turns into a kitchen appliance."

Lennox: "Nuh-huh. Totally a toaster. Twenty bucks."

Optimus: "..."

Optimus: "Many humans will die."

Lennox: "La la la! Okay folks, this is it. Lock and load!"

Optimus: "..."

 

I mean really, what are the writers trying to say? That Lennox and his crew can organize the impromptu slaughter of multiple Decepticons in Mission City, L.A. but they can't assassinate one single (apparently unarmed) Decepticon? And assuming that the writers really were trying to imply that Lennox and his team really did mess up... then where was the dramatic payoff? What lesson was Lennox supposed to learn, and how did he learn it by the end of the film?

 

Really, if the entire justification for Lennox and the Autobots almost completely blowing the Shanghai operation is that, after two years, not one of them can judge the relevant dangerousness of an enemy versus their relative size then... well, I can't even find the words.