No. That's not what would have happened. First off, Animated Optimus and G1 Optimus are two completely different characters with different motivations. TFA Optimus was a young, relatively inexperienced commander of a work crew who was thrust into protecting the All Spark. He hadn't been fighting the Decepticons, much less Megatron, for all that long. During his time on Earth, he had been acting more like a police officer than a soldier. G1 Optimus had been fighting Megatron for millions of years, They were personal enemies, mortal enemies with a lot of history and bad "blood" between them. In the 86 movie, it was made very clear that this was going to be a fight to the finish with no quarter asked or given. As Optimus himself said, "One shall stand, one shall fall." That was a battle to the death. G1 Optimus was not going to arrest Megatron, he was intending to kill him once and for all. Optimus in RotF is the same way. He is out to put an end to the war once and for all by hunting down every Decepticon on Earth where they hide and terminating them with extreme prejudice; no quarter asked or given.

There's still a large gap though between executing a guy like Megatron - civil war instigator, possible war criminal, party effectively responsible for the near-complete draining of Cybertron's resources and various other acts - and a guy like Sideways, whose chief crime was fleeing an armed, incoming enemy and not even fighting back when attacked.

 

I understand that in the post-9/11 era, executing a helpless foe seems perfectly acceptable in light of what said foe might do if they remain alive... but why not aim for a something a little higher-minded, a little less grey-area? Again - it wouldn't have killed Bay et al to (god forbid) depict Sideways as at least returning fire or otherwise acting in a way more easily interpreted as evil than 'well, he's a courier and he might have sensitive information.'

 

We can discuss the motivating factors involved all day, but it still remains that Sideswipe bisected a character that was, for all intents and purposes, an on-screen pacifist. And then he does a victory dance!

 

Classy. Real classy.

But, he wasn't a pacifist, on-screen or otherwise. He was a Decepticon courier. a combatant. Just because he's a coward doesn't change that simple fact. His very allegiance to the Decepticon cause made him a legitimate target. His blasting through people's homes and thus threatening lives made him a legitimate target. Sideways was an identified enemy combatant. He was armed, he was dangerous, and he was a security risk. Anything more than identifying him as a Deceptiocn really wasn't necessary. The Decepticons are the bad guys. That is all the audience needed to know.

You make a good point; if you saw the first film you could theoretically fill in all the plot holes on your own, but should you really have to?

 

I guess my argument (opinion?) is that, even in a film series, you have to take into account the fact that people are going to watch the sequel who did not watch the previous installment.

Every story, even if part of a series, must have just enough exposition in it that it can stand alone if it has to.

I disagree. There are plenty of franchises out there where you'll be lost if you don't see all of them or at least have a background that was developed in the earlier installments.

 

Yes there are series like that, but that doesn't mean it's a good way to make a movie. (sorry, I'm just asking to get shot, aren't I? Please don't :) If you can give some good examples, that'd be appreciated. It would certainly add a new layer to the discussion!)

 

I'm not saying that ROTF needed a complete re-cap of the first film, but just a teeny bit more exposition, either in Prime's opening Monologue, or subtly included before the scene would have been appreciated even if it wasn't a full-fledged solution. As I said in an earlier post even a statement from someone along the lines of: "The Decepticons are cold-blooded murderers and you want to wait and see if they're going to surrender? We don't have time for that Mickey-Mouse Bullcrap!". (Sorry, just had a "Leon the Proffesional" moment there... :P )

 

In general though, I think ROTF had a LOT of glaring flaws that could have been fixed/avoided very very VERY easily, before, during, or even after production in some cases. Sloppiness like that doesn't get an excuse in my book when you have the kind of budget that M. Bay was working with.

Exposition would have been great. Since it was beyond the writing team however, the above scenario is sufficient to tide me through. My lord, I'm still trying to get past the image of John Turturro's thonged ASS, like, right in my face. There's a reason right there for obliterating the enemy with prejudice of the most extreme kind right there.

 

I agree there is a lot of evidence that can point to the deaths as being completely justified, and if you're willing to have a group discussion on it, (or think really hard on your own) you can find it. And if I read your statement correctly, then we also agree that the real crime here was a lack of exposition (and Turtrurro's butt :eek ) and I don't think anyone can really defend the movie for that.

 

I'm gonna use a little analogy: Let's say the film is like Michael Bay leading you on a tour of a warzone. As he's pointing at something he thought made a "cool action scene" (corvette cuts an audi in half! sweet!) you notice that he avoids and steps over something on the ground. On closer inspection you notice that it is "the unexploded landmine of unstated exposition". Now the good news is that you noticed it, so you don't feel as bad as if you'd stepped on it ( :awsum ) but let's face it; HE DIDN'T WARN YOU IT WAS THERE. So can you hold that against him? Heck yeah! And I will continue to do so until the third movie comes out and satisfies ALL my expectations for it (I was gonna settle for 'some' with ROTF, but I didn't get ANY!'), or Michael Bay apologizes to the fan community and remakes ROTF as a better film. (I think the Turturro scene more than justifies destroying every copy of the existing film. Am I kidding as I often am? Maybe, maybe not :) )

 

I'm certain Prime saw Megs inching towards the gun, but I think Megs' fate was sealed. Prime was going to give Megs what-for, so to speak. Hot Rod just advanced the plot and killed off the more joyous period of TF history that was seasons 1 and 2. Prime tried the gloves-on approach with Megs. Over the past few millenia, it hadn't worked.

I think this is one of those situations that is gonna come down to each individual's perception of the situation, cuz we'll never actually know what would have happened if Hot Rod hadn't shown up, as that wasn't part of the story that got told. :shrug

 

The only suitable reply here is that a) you are asking for the impossible, because b) Michael Bay is a crappy filmmaker. He sucks, and there's no amount of money his films can make that will cause me to change my mind. All aspects of a movie that have to do with exposition and character development twist in the wind when herr Bay comes to town. Exposition of the most rudimentary type would have saved the scene and established the motivations of these secondary protagonists, as well as making the Decepticons seem less like victims, but when faced with these options, Mr. Bay will always opt to blow something up and shoot something through an orange filter. There's no other way for him. We're kind of going back and forth here, when the primary culprit is the storytelling. It's crappy filmmaking and crappy writing all around...even though the actions the Autobots took were completely justified IMO.

 

With that in mind, since it is a Bay film, and my above statements can be taken as some element of the truth (hubris alert :alert ), the audience--particularly the segment of the audience that actually knows and understands the basics of the TF mythos are forced to read between the lines and make sense of the silliness. That is our reality, up until the moment someone competent comes along to take things over. What is also evident--in all probablility--is Mr. Bay's own stance on the wars (along with sex and overall maturity) we are fighting right now--which have been transposed into the Bayverse. Which works well enough for me (even though I'm certain that I disagree with whatever Bay's stance on our wars IRL), given the fearsome, armed and extraterrestrial race of the enemy targets, as well as my view that they (Demolishor and Sideways) did not appear as though they weren't coalescing.

 

Even with my overall horror at seeing John Turturro 'EXPOSED,' Meg Fox stole the whole show if you're talking about all things odious and odiferous. She's just plastic. So incredibly plastic. Sam's mom wasn't far behind...as a matter of fact, she was running neck and neck with Isabel Lucas. I personally would love to show all involved what an incredibly talented proctologist I am.

You know After reading back through a lot of this stuff this is what I have discovered.

 

The ones who believe the killings of the cons are justified are lumping them all together as war criminals. But as we can see from Jetfire and Wheelie that is not so. Say all decepticond should be killed on sight is like saying all people from the midle east should be shot on sight because some of them are terrorist.

 

So if all decepticons are bad Jetfire and wheelie deserve to die regardless of weather they "decided" to become autobots or not because they are still war criminals, right?

 

 

I don't think OP would do that even in 86 because doesn't "Until all are one" include the cons as well?

But, he wasn't a pacifist, on-screen or otherwise. He was a Decepticon courier. a combatant. Just because he's a coward doesn't change that simple fact. His very allegiance to the Decepticon cause made him a legitimate target. His blasting through people's homes and thus threatening lives made him a legitimate target. Sideways was an identified enemy combatant. He was armed, he was dangerous, and he was a security risk. Anything more than identifying him as a Deceptiocn really wasn't necessary. The Decepticons are the bad guys. That is all the audience needed to know.

You seem to be confused - I'm not arguing against the justifiability of the act. Indeed, I'm quite sure that in light of Sideways' status as a shape-shifting alien organism, pretty much anything the human-Autobot alliance did to him would be justifiable. If the humans captured Sideways, took him back to their base and cut him into tiny little pieces for further study, I'm sure there would still be some angle to wrangle that would make the entire process 'justifiable'.

 

What I'm talking about is the fact that there are certain expectations in mythic narrative fiction, and this particular scene managed to push them all the wrong way. It's not enough to say "The Decepticons are the bad guys" - the film needs to show them being the bad guys. It's not enough to say "He wasn't a pacifist" - the movie never showed us otherwise! The guy is getting shot repeatedly, and never once returns fire. My god, the sheer, unadulterated evil of this creature! And then he smashes through a building - you know what that tells the audience? Sure, that Sideways didn't care about human property or safety... but also, that he was getting desperate. (And for the record, I didn't see the Arcee triplets looking too closely before throwing themselves through someone's home at over sixty miles an hour either.)

 

And here's a thought, just while we on the twin subject of poor storytelling and the Arcee triplets: where did they go after they exited the other side of the building? Also: where was Sideways in relation to Lennox and Sideswipe that the latter was able to catch up with with his target in a matter of seconds? Inquiring minds want to know!

^^^ good points JOP!

 

and now the weather... or my replies, whichever comes first.

Yes there are series like that, but that doesn't mean it's a good way to make a movie. (sorry, I'm just asking to get shot, aren't I? Please don't :) If you can give some good examples, that'd be appreciated. It would certainly add a new layer to the discussion!)

How about Star Wars, the Matrix... Heck, there I saw the last 007 movie without seeing the one before that and I was lost.

 

Star Wars I always felt did a pretty good job of covering the bulk of the exposition in those lovely little scrolling paragraphs! :D

Didn't really pay any attention to the Matrix sequels; I mean I watched em, but I had trouble paying attention. But that's just my personal malfunction.

The newest Bond Movie? Quantum of Solace? I never heard anything good about it so I didn't watch it. I thought it was generally accepted to be a "questionable film" and as such you should avoid emulating it. But that's just my personal ignorance.

 

I mean, what do you mean by "teeny bit?" If it's only a teeny bit off it should be close enough.

... a teeny bit more exposition...

 

I agree, but I don't think this is that big of a flaw if one at all. What bugs me is it seems like people are trying to come up with things to hate that aren't worth it, especially when there's so much in the movie that IS worth hating. Like Simmons butt.

I'd like to apologize because knowing what I know about how I think, that is probably what I am doing. When a film makes me cross I want to see it utterly destroyed and in flames and start over with a clean slate. I should probably see a therapist.

Again I apologize and hope you don't think I've been a jerk about this whole thing.

 

The only suitable reply here is that a) you are asking for the impossible, because b) Michael Bay is a crappy filmmaker. He sucks, and there's no amount of money his films can make that will cause me to change my mind.

Oh, I never said it would happen as long as M. Bay was involved, it's just the only thing that would bring me to forgive him. :D

Even with my overall horror at seeing John Turturro 'EXPOSED,' Meg Fox stole the whole show if you're talking about all things odious and odiferous. She's just plastic. So incredibly plastic. Sam's mom wasn't far behind...as a matter of fact, she was running neck and neck with Isabel Lucas. I personally would love to show all involved what an incredibly talented proctologist I am.

Yeah... I'm beginning to think that Bay may be a Misogynist on top of being a questionable film maker.

 

Say all decepticond should be killed on sight is like saying all people from the midle east should be shot on sight because some of them are terrorist.

Hmmm... I'm scared to touch this one...

You know After reading back through a lot of this stuff this is what I have discovered.

 

The ones who believe the killings of the cons are justified are lumping them all together as war criminals. But as we can see from Jetfire and Wheelie that is not so. Say all decepticond should be killed on sight is like saying all people from the midle east should be shot on sight because some of them are terrorist.

 

So if all decepticons are bad Jetfire and wheelie deserve to die regardless of weather they "decided" to become autobots or not because they are still war criminals, right?

 

 

I don't think OP would do that even in 86 because doesn't "Until all are one" include the cons as well?

The Deceptiocns aren't a race, like Arabs are. They're a military faction. Jetfire and Wheelie made a conscious choice to defect from that faction. They saw that the Decepticons were evil and defected to the Autobots. Demolishor, Sideways, etc. chose to be Decepticons. Wheelie was forced into it, and defected once he realized he could. As Jetfire said, it's a matter of choice. The Decepticons chose to serve Megatron, chose to do evil, chose to start a war of conquest. They are the enemy. Thus, being a Deceptiocn is not comparable to being an Arab. It is, however, comparable to being a terrorist, because that ism, essentially, what the Decepticons are.

The Deceptiocns aren't a race, like Arabs are. They're a military faction. Jetfire and Wheelie made a conscious choice to defect from that faction. They saw that the Decepticons were evil and defected to the Autobots. Demolishor, Sideways, etc. chose to be Decepticons. Wheelie was forced into it, and defected once he realized he could. As Jetfire said, it's a matter of choice. The Decepticons chose to serve Megatron, chose to do evil, chose to start a war of conquest. They are the enemy. Thus, being a Deceptiocn is not comparable to being an Arab. It is, however, comparable to being a terrorist, because that ism, essentially, what the Decepticons are.

 

Just a thought, but let's assume for one moment that maybe Sideways wanted to defect.

 

How does one defect when the opposing side are on a seek and destroy mission?

You know After reading back through a lot of this stuff this is what I have discovered.

 

The ones who believe the killings of the cons are justified are lumping them all together as war criminals. But as we can see from Jetfire and Wheelie that is not so. Say all decepticond should be killed on sight is like saying all people from the midle east should be shot on sight because some of them are terrorist.

 

So if all decepticons are bad Jetfire and wheelie deserve to die regardless of weather they "decided" to become autobots or not because they are still war criminals, right?

 

 

I don't think OP would do that even in 86 because doesn't "Until all are one" include the cons as well?

The Deceptiocns aren't a race, like Arabs are. They're a military faction. Jetfire and Wheelie made a conscious choice to defect from that faction. They saw that the Decepticons were evil and defected to the Autobots. Demolishor, Sideways, etc. chose to be Decepticons. Wheelie was forced into it, and defected once he realized he could. As Jetfire said, it's a matter of choice. The Decepticons chose to serve Megatron, chose to do evil, chose to start a war of conquest. They are the enemy. Thus, being a Deceptiocn is not comparable to being an Arab. It is, however, comparable to being a terrorist, because that ism, essentially, what the Decepticons are.

 

 

Wait what? They were born decepticons it showed that in the movie and apparently the alspark makes all things decepticons first... Decepticons and Autobots are the same as Americans and Russians. They are all the same race but a different people of that race.

 

And what your saying is just because they say "Ok, I'm good now" means everything else they did before that was ok? How hipacritical is that? So Sadam only needed to say, I'm an american now and they would have said ok and let him go?

The Deceptiocns aren't a race, like Arabs are. They're a military faction. Jetfire and Wheelie made a conscious choice to defect from that faction. They saw that the Decepticons were evil and defected to the Autobots. Demolishor, Sideways, etc. chose to be Decepticons. Wheelie was forced into it, and defected once he realized he could. As Jetfire said, it's a matter of choice. The Decepticons chose to serve Megatron, chose to do evil, chose to start a war of conquest. They are the enemy. Thus, being a Deceptiocn is not comparable to being an Arab. It is, however, comparable to being a terrorist, because that ism, essentially, what the Decepticons are.

 

Just a thought, but let's assume for one moment that maybe Sideways wanted to defect.

 

How does one defect when the opposing side are on a seek and destroy mission?

First off, there is no indication that he even considered it, and his bio also certainly suggests otherwise. Secondly, had he wanted to defect, he could have done so at any time before the assault, and could have surrendered instead of running. the very fact that he took off like a bat outta hell proves that he was Decepticon through and through.

 

You know After reading back through a lot of this stuff this is what I have discovered.

 

The ones who believe the killings of the cons are justified are lumping them all together as war criminals. But as we can see from Jetfire and Wheelie that is not so. Say all decepticond should be killed on sight is like saying all people from the midle east should be shot on sight because some of them are terrorist.

 

So if all decepticons are bad Jetfire and wheelie deserve to die regardless of weather they "decided" to become autobots or not because they are still war criminals, right?

 

 

I don't think OP would do that even in 86 because doesn't "Until all are one" include the cons as well?

The Deceptiocns aren't a race, like Arabs are. They're a military faction. Jetfire and Wheelie made a conscious choice to defect from that faction. They saw that the Decepticons were evil and defected to the Autobots. Demolishor, Sideways, etc. chose to be Decepticons. Wheelie was forced into it, and defected once he realized he could. As Jetfire said, it's a matter of choice. The Decepticons chose to serve Megatron, chose to do evil, chose to start a war of conquest. They are the enemy. Thus, being a Deceptiocn is not comparable to being an Arab. It is, however, comparable to being a terrorist, because that ism, essentially, what the Decepticons are.

 

 

Wait what? They were born decepticons and apparently the alspark makes all things decepticons first... Decepticons and Autobots are the same as Americans and Russians. They are all the same race but a different people of that race.

 

And what your saying is just because they say "Ok, I'm good now" means everything else they did before that was ok? How hipacritical is that? So Sadam only needed to say, I'm an american now and they would have said ok and let him go?

The All Spark was never meant to be used on machines in the first place, that's why it transforms inanimate machines into monsters. The general Cybertronian populous wasn't created from inanimate machines brought to life by the All Spark. The movie shows them hatching from what appears to be eggs of some form. Secondly, the Decepticons are not like the Russians either. They're like AlQuaida (SP?). They're an organization and ideology, not a race, not a nationality. Their offspring are raised in this organization, indoctrinated into its beliefs, and sent out to fight. Now, does that make all Decepticons war criminals? No. Of course not, though, ones like Megatron, Starscrem, The Fallen, and Soundwave, most assuredly are. However, it does make all Decepticons legitimate targets as long as they choose to remain Decepticons.