Here's the thing. They did enhance the subplots. The antics of his mother showed the family dynamics and how Sam and his parents were dealing with his going off to college. It set the stage for his time in college, which in turn set up the rest of the plot. The whole "roommate" subplot also established Sam's getting settled and introducing Leo, who was (for better or worse) a major supporting character in this movie. Alice is what forced Sam and his friends into the adventure, and ultimately prepared them for their next trial by fire. The Appliance bots sequence demonstrated that the power of the All Spark was still alive, and set the stage for everything else happening to Sam. The Dogs humping, was just comedy, showing the normal things happening in a typical house. The "schlepping" through Egypt establishes that this is a long quest, and that time is passing rather than simply popping from location to location, having Sam and his group easily finding each piece. It also gives the audience time to digest what's been happening and provide more character development to the main characters. Like it or not, but Skids and Mudflap were part of the maingroup of characters.

 

True, these things did indeed add to the subplots that were written into the film. However I guess to that my counter-argument would be this:

 

(A) did all these subplot enhancements have to take quite as long?

I didn't mind the part were Sam's Mother got high, at first. It was still funny when she was saying embarrassing things to the young ladies out front. However I do consciously recall thinking when she tackled that guy and stole the frisbees: "Does this bit really need to run this long?"

I heard a film editor on a commentary say once: "If you shake a movie, (usually) about Ten Minutes will fall out." So how many tens of minutes may have fallen out if they'd shaken this movie a little harder? And...

 

(B) Did they have to write these sub-plots in in the first place?

Let's go all the way back to pre-production. Let's go back to the day that Orci, Kurtzman, and that other guy (and possibly M. Bay) all got together to figure out this: What is our story gonna be? Well we know the movie has to be about Transformers, at LEAST Prime & Bumblee, (they're the big names) and Megatron (he's THE antagonist after all.), Starscream (Since hes Megs' foil, and we showed him escape at the end) and Sam and Mikaela have to be in it since they are the main human characters.

From this point every other ounce of content of the film was up in the air. From this point there were NO high parents, NO kitchen bots, NO dogs, NO roommate, NO John Turturro, NO Alice, NO Egypt, and NO twins.

 

My Argument is that They didn't need to put any of that stuff in the story in the first place.

 

They weren't fated to write the story that they wrote that contained those sub plots that leached all the time out of the movie that could have been spent showing Transformers in a film called: "Transformers". They could have written entirely different sub-plots that achieved the exact same effects (Family dynamics, Relationship tension, comic relief) that at least tangentially involved some of the actual Transformers characters. The Twins were only Main characters because they were written as main characters; they were never cosmically doomed to be main characters, nor did the source material in any way deign that they needed to BE main characters. So replace their juvenile made up bickering with REAL characters bickering in a less juvenile but equally if not more humorous way.

 

And even if they really wanted to put some of the content I just listed in there, they didn't need to put all of it in there.

 

So in conclusion...

 

YES the things listed did flesh out the subplots that were written into the script, as Tramp pointed out...

 

BUT I propose that these did not need to be so time consuming as they actually were, leaving time to put other things in the film...

 

AND it could be argued that they never had to write these things into the script in the first place, as the source material and preceding installment in the film franchise in no way necessitated many of the sub plots that were written in.

 

That's all I'm sayin'.

Or use some of that time to explain a little of the subtext in a fight scene where a corvette cuts an Audi in half. That's all I'm saying.

 

THIS.

 

And I expected to get a laugh or two from starting this thread but 13 PAGES!?!? :eek LOL. I also like how we started arguing about Sideswipe killing Sideways, then it turned into appropriate military actions as compared to the human world, then parallels with stifled violence in the 80's, spiraling into "thats the problem with our callousness towards graphic imagery", which also brought up GI JOE, which somehow managed to blossom into character development and then arguments about various parts of ROTF not necessarily pertaining to the Swipe v Ways origination.

 

Laugh riot! :tfevil

Laugh riot! :tfevil

 

This thread actually is pretty funny if you think about it. :yay Frankly I love the mental work out though, good discussion all!

Here's the thing. They did enhance the subplots. The antics of his mother showed the family dynamics and how Sam and his parents were dealing with his going off to college. It set the stage for his time in college, which in turn set up the rest of the plot. The whole "roommate" subplot also established Sam's getting settled and introducing Leo, who was (for better or worse) a major supporting character in this movie. Alice is what forced Sam and his friends into the adventure, and ultimately prepared them for their next trial by fire. The Appliance bots sequence demonstrated that the power of the All Spark was still alive, and set the stage for everything else happening to Sam. The Dogs humping, was just comedy, showing the normal things happening in a typical house. The "schlepping" through Egypt establishes that this is a long quest, and that time is passing rather than simply popping from location to location, having Sam and his group easily finding each piece. It also gives the audience time to digest what's been happening and provide more character development to the main characters. Like it or not, but Skids and Mudflap were part of the maingroup of characters.

 

True, these things did indeed add to the subplots that were written into the film. However I guess to that my counter-argument would be this:

 

(A) did all these subplot enhancements have to take quite as long?

I didn't mind the part were Sam's Mother got high, at first. It was still funny when she was saying embarrassing things to the young ladies out front. However I do consciously recall thinking when she tackled that guy and stole the frisbees: "Does this bit really need to run this long?"

I heard a film editor on a commentary say once: "If you shake a movie, (usually) about Ten Minutes will fall out." So how many tens of minutes may have fallen out if they'd shaken this movie a little harder? And...

 

(B) Did they have to write these sub-plots in in the first place?

Let's go all the way back to pre-production. Let's go back to the day that Orci, Kurtzman, and that other guy (and possibly M. Bay) all got together to figure out this: What is our story gonna be? Well we know the movie has to be about Transformers, at LEAST Prime & Bumblee, (they're the big names) and Megatron (he's THE antagonist after all.), Starscream (Since hes Megs' foil, and we showed him escape at the end) and Sam and Mikaela have to be in it since they are the main human characters.

From this point every other ounce of content of the film was up in the air. From this point there were NO high parents, NO kitchen bots, NO dogs, NO roommate, NO John Turturro, NO Alice, NO Egypt, and NO twins.

 

My Argument is that They didn't need to put any of that stuff in the story in the first place.

 

They weren't fated to write the story that they wrote that contained those sub plots that leached all the time out of the movie that could have been spent showing Transformers in a film called: "Transformers". They could have written entirely different sub-plots that achieved the exact same effects (Family dynamics, Relationship tension, comic relief) that at least tangentially involved some of the actual Transformers characters. The Twins were only Main characters because they were written as main characters; they were never cosmically doomed to be main characters, nor did the source material in any way deign that they needed to BE main characters. So replace their juvenile made up bickering with REAL characters bickering in a less juvenile but equally if not more humorous way.

 

And even if they really wanted to put some of the content I just listed in there, they didn't need to put all of it in there.

 

So in conclusion...

 

YES the things listed did flesh out the subplots that were written into the script, as Tramp pointed out...

 

BUT I propose that these did not need to be so time consuming as they actually were, leaving time to put other things in the film...

 

AND it could be argued that they never had to write these things into the script in the first place, as the source material and preceding installment in the film franchise in no way necessitated many of the sub plots that were written in.

 

That's all I'm sayin'.

I disagree. They did need those things. Each of those sub plots added to the main plot, and, on top of that, they gave us a sense that this was taking place in the real world, that Sam and Mikela had real lives they were trying to live which got compltely screwed up by the war between the Autobots and Decepticons. That is ultimately what these sequences establish. The individual lives of the people getting sucked into this adventure. This includes all of the mundanity and silliness that goes along with it. So yes, I would call that important.

So back to the basic beginnings of this thread:

 

Sideswipe MURDERED Sideways!

 

Discuss lol

 

EDIT: 14 pages :hbang

I disagree. They did need those things. Each of those sub plots added to the main plot, and, on top of that, they gave us a sense that this was taking place in the real world, that Sam and Mikela had real lives they were trying to live which got compltely screwed up by the war between the Autobots and Decepticons. That is ultimately what these sequences establish. The individual lives of the people getting sucked into this adventure. This includes all of the mundanity and silliness that goes along with it. So yes, I would call that important.

 

Hmmm.... I did say that they could have written OTHER subplots that accomplished these same things but involved actual Real Transformers (at least tangentially)... and I suppose I could reiterate that, but I think that would just make Breaker all cross for not staying on subject. :D

 

But before I get back on subject, I need to get this final little debate point/micro-rant out of my system. (And please, PLEASE don't take it personally, this isn't aimed at anyone in particular :thumb) *ahem*

I think that if the Transformers had been made into the main characters this time, with Sam in only an equal or lesser role (we got plenty of him and his Family in the LAST film getting sucked into the war.), I think that General Audiences may have discovered that the Bots can be just as interesting to watch in 'drama situations' (if not more so) than the human characters so on that note I'd just like to state that- SCREW SAM AND HIS PLASTIC BIMBO GIRLFRIEND! I WANT A MOVIE ABOUT TRANSFORMERS!!!!! :

:damnit -AAAAARGH!

 

Aaaaah... sorry... sorry... what? No, I'm not mentally unstable. Okay, back on subject...

 

MURDER!

 

-Whether the death of Sideways was legally sanctioned or not, it WAS murder. It was just legal Murder, like a state-sponsored execution or something. The truth of whether it was "Right" or "Wrong" is obscured under a veil of incomplete or nonexistent information (Cybertronian moral codes, back-story etc.), so we may never know the level of Sideswipe's "Blood-Guilt" :)

SCREW SAM AND HIS PLASTIC BIMBO GIRLFRIEND! I WANT A MOVIE ABOUT TRANSFORMERS!!!!! :

:damnit -AAAAARGH!

 

I love you..i couldnt agree anymore!

I disagree. They did need those things. Each of those sub plots added to the main plot, and, on top of that, they gave us a sense that this was taking place in the real world, that Sam and Mikela had real lives they were trying to live which got compltely screwed up by the war between the Autobots and Decepticons. That is ultimately what these sequences establish. The individual lives of the people getting sucked into this adventure. This includes all of the mundanity and silliness that goes along with it. So yes, I would call that important.

 

Hmmm.... I did say that they could have written OTHER subplots that accomplished these same things but involved actual Real Transformers (at least tangentially)... and I suppose I could reiterate that, but I think that would just make Breaker all cross for not staying on subject. :D

 

But before I get back on subject, I need to get this final little debate point/micro-rant out of my system. (And please, PLEASE don't take it personally, this isn't aimed at anyone in particular :thumb) *ahem*

I think that if the Transformers had been made into the main characters this time, with Sam in only an equal or lesser role (we got plenty of him and his Family in the LAST film getting sucked into the war.), I think that General Audiences may have discovered that the Bots can be just as interesting to watch in 'drama situations' (if not more so) than the human characters so on that note I'd just like to state that- SCREW SAM AND HIS PLASTIC BIMBO GIRLFRIEND! I WANT A MOVIE ABOUT TRANSFORMERS!!!!! :

:damnit -AAAAARGH!

 

Aaaaah... sorry... sorry... what? No, I'm not mentally unstable. Okay, back on subject...

 

MURDER!

 

-Whether the death of Sideways was legally sanctioned or not, it WAS murder. It was just legal Murder, like a state-sponsored execution or something. The truth of whether it was "Right" or "Wrong" is obscured under a veil of incomplete or nonexistent information (Cybertronian moral codes, back-story etc.), so we may never know the level of Sideswipe's "Blood-Guilt" :)

First off, the only difference between murder and killing in a war, or in self defense is purely a matter of legality. The definition of "murder" is the unlawful taking of a life. The key word being "unlawful". If the taking of a life is justified, as in a war or self-defense, etc. it is not murder.

 

Secondly, do you realize how much it would have cost to have the majority of story involving just Transformers and moving Sam and the other humans to just "background characters", or even simply "lesser roles"? The it would be cost prohibitive. The required rendering would be prohibitive. The story has to be told through human eyes.

First off, the only difference between murder and killing in a war, or in self defense is purely a matter of legality. The definition of "murder" is the unlawful taking of a life. The key word being "unlawful". If the taking of a life is justified, as in a war or self-defense, etc. it is not murder.

Personally, I didn't like the way that the Autobots seemed to be portrayed as tougher & more brutal than the Decepticons in either film...it just didn't feel like the appropriate portrayal of good guy/bad guy.

 

BUT...I've gotta agree with Tramp on this one. I'll preface this by fully acknowledging that everyone will not agree...but there is a difference between murder and killing, unlawful and justifiable, respectively. And to illustrate this long standing disagreement, this argument has been the basis for abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and even genocide, for decades upon decades...so I don't expect to solve that debate on a TF forum. ;) Just felt the need to put in my two cents concerning the topic at hand...the killing of Sideways & Demolisher, not murder).

 

Story-wise, it was rather weak & useless...those particular characters could've been developed a little further, IMO.

First off, the only difference between murder and killing in a war, or in self defense is purely a matter of legality. The definition of "murder" is the unlawful taking of a life. The key word being "unlawful". If the taking of a life is justified, as in a war or self-defense, etc. it is not murder.

 

Personally, I didn't like the way that the Autobots seemed to be portrayed as tougher & more brutal than the Decepticons in either film...it just didn't feel like the appropriate portrayal of good guy/bad guy.

 

BUT...I've gotta agree with Tramp on this one. I'll preface this by fully acknowledging that everyone will not agree...but there is a difference between murder and killing, unlawful and justifiable, respectively. And to illustrate this long standing disagreement, this argument has been the basis for abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and even genocide, for decades upon decades...so I don't expect to solve that debate on a TF forum. ;) Just felt the need to put in my two cents concerning the topic at hand...the killing of Sideways & Demolisher, not murder).

 

Story-wise, it was rather weak & useless...those particular characters could've been developed a little further, IMO.

 

Okay, then I think we can put that part of the conversation to rest.

 

In Conclusion:

"Murder" (as the unlawful taking of life) is not what happened. (I was misappropriating the word; for that I apologize.)

Sideswipe's killing/termination/destruction/elimination of Sideways was a legally justified act as determined by rules of engagement, and the vagaries of an intense combat situation. So Sideswipe cannot be found guilty of "murder", or any wrongful form of... uh... "Bot-slaughter". :thumb

 

However, whether this is a "Morally" justified act, is another thing entirely, one which I honestly don't believe we were given enough information to determine. (Though it sure didn't FEEL right...)

 

 

Secondly, do you realize how much it would have cost to have the majority of story involving just Transformers and moving Sam and the other humans to just "background characters", or even simply "lesser roles"? The it would be cost prohibitive. The required rendering would be prohibitive. The story has to be told through human eyes.

 

Um... I'm... Hesitant. :shrug