What he said. The Autobots would have been completely eliminated a long time ago if they were unwilling to meet the war on its terms and rise to the occassion. This would be doubly grievous, as the Decepticons plans for conquest involve much more than simply conquering Cybertron. There is no quarter asked--or given--between the two sides. It really is that simple.

 

Exactly. War is not the time to "play nice", especially with an enemy bent on conquest, enslavement, and (in many cases) genocide.

Umm weren't the original ones introduced around the time of the cold war? 1985-1991 during the Reagan years. and wasn't there a constant threat of nuclar war and wasn't everyone out to kill everyoneelse.... Oh wait I get it those were actually the good old days when people cared for each other and everything now is much worse.....Right?

 

This.

I mean tthat the cartoon and toys came out aimed towards children and there wasn't as much violence on TV and in movies. (At least that's how I remember it...)

You can blame the parents' groups for that. They didn't want children exposed to death. They wanted everything sanitized and "nice". This is evident in GI Joe. Original showings of the first episodes, had planes exploding and people dying. Then, the parent groups raised a ruckus, so much so that the animators had to go back in and add the pilots of these planes always eject and parachute to safety so that the "children" wouldn't see people die in a war. That is why we never saw characters die in either GI Joe or Transformers. The Parents groups wouldn't allow it.

Is that a good thing or bad thing? Honestly based on what they show on tv now we had it better in the 80's...

You can blame the parents' groups for that. They didn't want children exposed to death. They wanted everything sanitized and "nice". This is evident in GI Joe. Original showings of the first episodes, had planes exploding and people dying. Then, the parent groups raised a ruckus, so much so that the animators had to go back in and add the pilots of these planes always eject and parachute to safety so that the "children" wouldn't see people die in a war. That is why we never saw characters die in either GI Joe or Transformers. The Parents groups wouldn't allow it.

 

Thats also why all the guns fired lasers instead of bullets. Which is funny because if you can think of weaponized lasers zipping around the battlefield, I think thatd be worse then bullets. SHING! Your lower half has been separated from your upper half! Good thing the laser instantly cauterized it. Welcome to Hell.

You can blame the parents' groups for that. They didn't want children exposed to death. They wanted everything sanitized and "nice". This is evident in GI Joe. Original showings of the first episodes, had planes exploding and people dying. Then, the parent groups raised a ruckus, so much so that the animators had to go back in and add the pilots of these planes always eject and parachute to safety so that the "children" wouldn't see people die in a war. That is why we never saw characters die in either GI Joe or Transformers. The Parents groups wouldn't allow it.

 

Thats also why all the guns fired lasers instead of bullets. Which is funny because if you can think of weaponized lasers zipping around the battlefield, I think thatd be worse then bullets. SHING! Your lower half has been separated from your upper half! Good thing the laser instantly cauterized it. Welcome to Hell.

Exactly. The parents groups wanted everything sanitized with no death. The problem with that is that it not only makes the battles unrealistic in the extreme, but also sends the message that there aren't any consequences to violence. It is the fact that no one dies in these shows (which are "supposed" to be somewhat realistic vs slapstick—such as Loony Tunes) that really desensitizes kids to violence.

 

RotF shows what a real war between these two forces would be like. There's no time to play nice.

You can blame the parents' groups for that. They didn't want children exposed to death. They wanted everything sanitized and "nice". This is evident in GI Joe. Original showings of the first episodes, had planes exploding and people dying. Then, the parent groups raised a ruckus, so much so that the animators had to go back in and add the pilots of these planes always eject and parachute to safety so that the "children" wouldn't see people die in a war. That is why we never saw characters die in either GI Joe or Transformers. The Parents groups wouldn't allow it.

 

Thats also why all the guns fired lasers instead of bullets. Which is funny because if you can think of weaponized lasers zipping around the battlefield, I think thatd be worse then bullets. SHING! Your lower half has been separated from your upper half! Good thing the laser instantly cauterized it. Welcome to Hell.

Exactly. The parents groups wanted everything sanitized with no death. The problem with that is that it not only makes the battles unrealistic in the extreme, but also sends the message that there aren't any consequences to violence. It is the fact that no one dies in these shows (which are "supposed" to be somewhat realistic vs slapstick—such as Loony Tunes) that really desensitizes kids to violence.

 

RotF shows what a real war between these two forces would be like. There's no time to play nice.

 

Heh, when I was a kid and watching G.I. JOE I wanted to join the Army cause I thought you get to wear your own badass unique uniform, have an animal sidekick, a kick ass job and an awesome code name. I was later, to say the least, disappointed. But still I laugh about my naivete as a kid.

 

Needless to say, I was SHOCKED AND HORRIFIED when so many Autobots were killed at the begining of Transformers: The Movie. I think the image of Prowl with fluid coming from his mouth as he died fucked me up. Also, Ironhide being killed execution style. Harsh.

 

EDIT: I dont think Prime's death bothered me all that much. The dude went down fighting heroically. I think the speed in which the others were killed is what shocked me. And poor Windcharger and Wheeljack. We didn't even get to see how they died! They were just dead! Gah!

Yeah. I'm actually old enough to remember the original GI Joe action figures. The big 12" figures that first came out in 1964 on through the late 1970s, when GI Joe was one guy, not a team, back before there were toy-based cartoons.

Ahh... see the good ole' days.

 

You know Primes death caused them to change the GI-joe movie because so many people were upset over it and the whole zombie prime thing was completed before the movie ever came out. It made parents mad. Me as a kid I loved it prime was back who cared if he had to eat brains to live.....

The only thing I can say in response to that is (and I can't believe I'm actually defending the non-character development in ROTF in some capacity), Sideswipe has generally been depicted as the kind of dirty, anything-goes streetfighter who likes to pound on Decepticons and will use any dirty means he has at his disposal to take them down. I know the Bayverse didn't do one thing in the movie exposition-wise to illustrate this, but...it actually fits with Sideswipe's character (at least with his G1 bio). He'd ace Sideways and ask questions later...and would brag about it, to boot.

That's true - although I imagine G1 Sideswipe would have been a lot less, er, elegant. He would have probably done a touchdown dance or somesuch. :D

 

Mainly I think the problem here, and a lot of the ensuing confusion, is that what Sideswipe did was fairly understandable under the "It's war!" analogy... but it still makes for bad storytelling. What Sideswipe did was perhaps necessary, but it certainly wasn't heroic, and that makes him a very difficult character to root for.

 

Protecting life does not simply mean waiting for an attack. It also mean eliminating threats before they can attack. If you know an enemy, such as a terrorist cell, is preparing to attack you or innocents, You deal with them before they can implement their plans. IF you know the enemy is hold up somewhere, you take them down. If you know criminals hare planning a crime, you stop them before they can commit it. It's called being proactive instead of reactive. The key to winning any war is cutting off the enemy's supply lines, intelligence, and communications, and then taking them out where they're holed up. The Autobots are at war. There is no time to play around. You don't play "nice" with the enemy.

See, this is exactly what I mean - it makes perfect sense.

It's just not likable.

 

As was stated earlier though, it is interesting in terms of the current day and age. When Transformers burst onto the airwaves, the US was still locked in a silent staredown with the USSR. The idea of two forces operating in secret opposition to one another wasn't that outrageous. Here we are twenty-five years later, six years after the proactive invasion of Iraq. My, how times change...

The only thing I can say in response to that is (and I can't believe I'm actually defending the non-character development in ROTF in some capacity), Sideswipe has generally been depicted as the kind of dirty, anything-goes streetfighter who likes to pound on Decepticons and will use any dirty means he has at his disposal to take them down. I know the Bayverse didn't do one thing in the movie exposition-wise to illustrate this, but...it actually fits with Sideswipe's character (at least with his G1 bio). He'd ace Sideways and ask questions later...and would brag about it, to boot.

That's true - although I imagine G1 Sideswipe would have been a lot less, er, elegant. He would have probably done a touchdown dance or somesuch. :D

 

Mainly I think the problem here, and a lot of the ensuing confusion, is that what Sideswipe did was fairly understandable under the "It's war!" analogy... but it still makes for bad storytelling. What Sideswipe did was perhaps necessary, but it certainly wasn't heroic, and that makes him a very difficult character to root for.

 

Protecting life does not simply mean waiting for an attack. It also mean eliminating threats before they can attack. If you know an enemy, such as a terrorist cell, is preparing to attack you or innocents, You deal with them before they can implement their plans. IF you know the enemy is hold up somewhere, you take them down. If you know criminals hare planning a crime, you stop them before they can commit it. It's called being proactive instead of reactive. The key to winning any war is cutting off the enemy's supply lines, intelligence, and communications, and then taking them out where they're holed up. The Autobots are at war. There is no time to play around. You don't play "nice" with the enemy.

See, this is exactly what I mean - it makes perfect sense.

It's just not likable.

 

As was stated earlier though, it is interesting in terms of the current day and age. When Transformers burst onto the airwaves, the US was still locked in a silent staredown with the USSR. The idea of two forces operating in secret opposition to one another wasn't that outrageous. Here we are twenty-five years later, six years after the proactive invasion of Iraq. My, how times change...

 

I'll concede the point...it does make for bad storytelling, and it is the Bayverses' stock in trade. If a character--particularly an Autobot--is supposed to be portrayed as 'unlikeable' or 'unheroic', then you'd think that the pretense of exposition with regards to this issue would be offered. I imagine that it wouldn't have taken 30 seconds for Swiper to declare that he'd seen the Decepticons kill off his friends/destroy his home city/ruin his credit score/overcharge him for his muffler, etc., etc. to give us some kind idea of his primary motivation(s).

 

I'll have to concede the second point as well (although again: I do like the direction in which they've been taken): the Autobots' actions are easy to explain and easy to justify and easy to understand...but it also makes them difficult to actually like. For me, I just feel tremendous disappointment that--given the context of certain events in the movie and this particular discussion--there was a golden opportunity to delve into the effects of the war on the psyche of the Autobots (and why not the Decepticons, while we're at it?) and why they choose to prosecute it in the manner they've chosen (given that they are sentient, alien WMDs), and if there is any hope for them to return to a more heroic stance.

I imagine that it wouldn't have taken 30 seconds for Swiper to declare that he'd seen the Decepticons kill off his friends/destroy his home city/ruin his credit score/overcharge him for his muffler, etc., etc. to give us some kind idea of his primary motivation(s).

Sideswipe: Ah, if isn't SIDEWAYS, my old nemesis from Cybertron! Halt, fiend!

Sideways: SIDESWIPE! After all these years, I am still unable to shake your heroicness!

SS: Now, Sideways, I shall put an end to the dread and horror you have spilled across countless planets over many millenia!

SW: Never! As a Decepticon I will let nothing stop me from performing random acts of cruelty and violence! Certainly not an Autobot, one who lives solely to protect the innocent from my terror!

SS: The time for talking has come to an end, Decepticon. Let us finish this once and for all in the form of combat!

SW: Combat? Yikes! (transforms and races away, then we get what we see in the movie...)

 

 

 

Sorry had to correct this for you. Hope you don't mind...

 

 

Sideswipe: Ah, if isn't SIDEWAYS, my old nemesis from Cybertron! Halt, fiend!

Sideways: SIDESWIPE! After all these years, you're still after me for the 20 bucks I owe you.

SS: Now, Sideways, I shall put an end to the dread and horror you have spilled across countless planets over many millenia!

SW: What? I swear I was only trying to deliver those pizzas. As a Decepticon pizza delivery bot I will let nothing stop me from performing my deliveries and getting you that $20. Certainly not an Autobot, one who lives solely to cuss and make bad sex jokes and prank phone calls like your two twin friends. Don't think I didn't know it was you 3 who ordered the 1,000 oil pizzas back on Cybertron and weren't there to pay for it.

SS: The time for talking has come to an end, Decepticon. Let us finish this once and for all in the form of combat!

SW: Combat? What? Over $20? You Autobots are really screwed up aren't you?