As far as developing the characters of BOTH factions, Sideways--ironically--would have been a great place to start...whether the Autobots took him prisoner or not. What is the mentality of someone actively involved in the conflict, delivering sensitive data/goods, who actually stays away from the actual combat? What is his motivation? What does he take from this? Why is he there at all?

While more robot chat would always be welcome, I have to admit I was pretty happy with what we did get between Megatron and Starscream.

I also liked Soundwave giving out info. That's something I felt was missing in the first film (and still somewhat in this one) was discussion between the Decepticons to make them look more like an intelligent army force as opposed to just menacing alien invaders.

 

I was pretty pleased with the interaction between Megs/Screamer, too.

 

It's not all about more dialogue between the 'bots, though. I'm a firm believer in making the audience give a damn about the characters you are going to put on the screen. I'm also a firm believer in cutting out the fat. Anybody here ever seen Once Upon A Time In The West? If not, I strongly recommend it. This film is almost 3 hours in length, and it's the leanest nearly 3-hour long movie I've ever seen. It's because--even though the director is being indulgent in that particular film--every scene has a purpose. You also are given a glimpse into nearly everyone that appears in the film. ROTF, on the other hand, is the slowest action film I've ever sat through since Steele Justice (Recommended if you've ever found yourself jonesing for a movie with Martin 'Karate Kid' Kove in THE starring role). It's nearly 2.5 hours long, and it plods, it grates and if I was watching it at home, I'd be wearing out the fast-forward button.

 

But I've gotten off-track. Give us a reason, any reason, to care about these characters. We know Swiper is a TF. We know he's a 'Vette. We know he likes killing Decepticons, and we know Sideways likes to run away from a fight. The special effects are really special, and still, I'm yawning through the scene as I'm tossing a silent curse at what I just saw. Not because I disagree with what Swiper just did to S-Ways, but because the film has failed to engage me in such a way that I would place some sort of emotional investment in it, and give a damn about the fact that Swiper just curbstomped a fleeing Decepticon.

 

Sideswipe leaps through the air, and--using the blades located on each forearm, neatly cleaves Sideways in two right down the middle. He shouts some celebratory cry, hell, he even repeats his line from the movie. Then, he turns in the direction of his slain foe, more subdued now and somber, and he says fiercely and quetly:

 

'That was for Protihex 13.'

 

...it's not much at all, but it's more than the movie does.

The thing is we're watching more than just that one scene. We are given two movies worth of context on the Autobots and Decepticons.

True that - although at least for me, the greater context isn't much better than the Shanghai scenes. One could argue that subtlety and nuance went out the window the moment Michael Bay decided to make an alien invasion movie - that's about the same time "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" and "Peace through tyranny!" became the rather less complicated "Protect!" and "Destroy!" :shrug

Though we may not like it, Sideswipe and Sideways, among others, aren't main characters in the movie. The main ones among the TFs are Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Bumblebee, and the twins. You can't feature every character. It's just too bad the twins were featured instead of Sideswipe...

Think of it this way - Sideswipe appears for approximately twenty-one seconds during the Shanghai scene. Lennox calls for Sideswipe - who then appears, spends two seconds transforming, spends another couple of seconds yelling "Clear a path!" and 'skates' around the corner... And then we get over fifteen seconds of Sideswipe jumping, flipping, cutting, spinning, posing and yelling "Damn, I'm good!"

 

Could that fifteen seconds have been dedicated to a little fighting instead? Something where at least Sideswipe was in danger of actually being harmed? Or perhaps the action could have been shortened to ten seconds, with Sideswipe saying something a little more maudlin - "You shouldn't have run."

 

And heck - let's say that there really is a character-to-screentime ratio issue. Why not - and I know this is going to sound crazy, but - why not cut a few characters? The Arcees contributed quite literally nothing to the Sideways chase; they could have been eliminated entirely, and Sideswipe could have been given their screentime instead.

 

I don't think anyone is going to argue that Sideswipe got unfairly shunted by Prime, Bumblebee et al; so much as the actual exposure available to the non-main characters was very poorly metered out. Indeed, the movie seems to be littered with little moments that eat up time and contribute nothing to the overall plot, while the exciting newcomers get slivers of limelight. Heck, during Megatron's resurrection, we get almost a minute's worth of submarine footage. I mean, what else is there to say? :)

And heck - let's say that there really is a character-to-screentime ratio issue. Why not - and I know this is going to sound crazy, but - why not cut a few characters? The Arcees contributed quite literally nothing to the Sideways chase; they could have been eliminated entirely, and Sideswipe could have been given their screentime instead.

Think of it this way: If this was a different type of action movie with two teams of humans fighting against each other, you'd get some cool scenes of fighting with unnamed characters.

The only reason it gets to people here is because we want to see every single character get fleshed out more because we're already familiar with them, and because they each look more unique than individual humans do.

Yes, but the problem is that in a movie, that is impossible. There simply isn't enough time. Movies have a very limited amount of time to tell their story. They can't do that and give characterization to every single character, particularly when it is a large cast, like in RotF. The majority of characters will have to be primarily background characters with little, if any, actual characterization. It's just the nature of the medium

And heck - let's say that there really is a character-to-screentime ratio issue. Why not - and I know this is going to sound crazy, but - why not cut a few characters? The Arcees contributed quite literally nothing to the Sideways chase; they could have been eliminated entirely, and Sideswipe could have been given their screentime instead.

Think of it this way: If this was a different type of action movie with two teams of humans fighting against each other, you'd get some cool scenes of fighting with unnamed characters.

The only reason it gets to people here is because we want to see every single character get fleshed out more because we're already familiar with them, and because they each look more unique than individual humans do.

Yes, but the problem is that in a movie, that is impossible. There simply isn't enough time. Movies have a very limited amount of time to tell their story. They can't do that and give characterization to every single character, particularly when it is a large cast, like in RotF. The majority of characters will have to be primarily background characters with little, if any, actual characterization. It's just the nature of the medium

 

Case in point only with a TV show: the G1 cartoon. Soooo many characters in order to sell toys that every other episode focuses on a few different characters and then we only see them in the background afterwards, if ever again. This isn't always the case of course, but Grapple comes to mind. He had that ep where he and the Constructicons built some giant solar power tower and then I dont think he ever had a line again.

 

Generally the less characters in the cast the more room for character growth IMO, ala Beast Wars. Which fleshed out its cast rather well while introducing just a few characters here and there. Animated did rather well too, maybe even better. Aside from background Autobot characters of course tho. And also aside from Team Charr.

And heck - let's say that there really is a character-to-screentime ratio issue. Why not - and I know this is going to sound crazy, but - why not cut a few characters? The Arcees contributed quite literally nothing to the Sideways chase; they could have been eliminated entirely, and Sideswipe could have been given their screentime instead.

Think of it this way: If this was a different type of action movie with two teams of humans fighting against each other, you'd get some cool scenes of fighting with unnamed characters.

The only reason it gets to people here is because we want to see every single character get fleshed out more because we're already familiar with them, and because they each look more unique than individual humans do.

Yes, but the problem is that in a movie, that is impossible. There simply isn't enough time. Movies have a very limited amount of time to tell their story. They can't do that and give characterization to every single character, particularly when it is a large cast, like in RotF. The majority of characters will have to be primarily background characters with little, if any, actual characterization. It's just the nature of the medium

 

Case in point only with a TV show: the G1 cartoon. Soooo many characters in order to sell toys that every other episode focuses on a few different characters and then we only see them in the background afterwards, if ever again. This isn't always the case of course, but Grapple comes to mind. He had that ep where he and the Constructicons built some giant solar power tower and then I dont think he ever had a line again.

 

Generally the less characters in the cast the more room for character growth IMO, ala Beast Wars. Which fleshed out its cast rather well while introducing just a few characters here and there. Animated did rather well too, maybe even better. Aside from background Autobot characters of course tho. And also aside from Team Charr.

Exactly. In a movie, you simply can't give everyone enough screen time to develop all of their characters. You have to focus on a small handful.

Yes, but the problem is that in a movie, that is impossible. There simply isn't enough time. Movies have a very limited amount of time to tell their story. They can't do that and give characterization to every single character, particularly when it is a large cast, like in RotF. The majority of characters will have to be primarily background characters with little, if any, actual characterization. It's just the nature of the medium

 

This is a very good argument. In fact it is a great argument.

 

But there is a flip-side. That being that there is a large amount of what could arguably be referred to as "Waste" in ROTF. Simply wasted scenes; In a film called "Transformers", many of which had little or nothing to do with actual Transformers:

 

Dogs Humping.

Kitchen Appliances turning into violent little savages.

Mothers getting high.

The whole thing with that "new government guy" sub-plot.

The 'Roommate' sub plot

The Alice Subplot. ("Trim" please, also the Mikaela/ Sam stuff, it isn't really integral, and much was unnecessary.)

The Twins' myriad of scenes. (They aren't real characters, M. Bay made em up with old character names. Give this time to REAL characters; sub in Sideswipe and Arcee in a similar but alternate role; I can see them bickering a good bit.)

Downsize the time it took to Re-introduce John Turturro's character, as well as the time it takes to get to the delightfully show stealing Jetfire.

Most of the schlepping around Egypt. (Border guard Micro-Plot? Really?)

Scenes of Military people chatting with each other about military stuff that didn't affect the plot. (Arguing about contacting the boys in the field? How is this a plot point?)

And then many of those explosions that didn't seem to have a cause.

 

Now I'm sure someone will say: "Hey! I liked some of that stuff!" but to that I say this: Lets say you like, I don't know (it's hypothetical) Dragon Ball Z, or the Super Bowl, or cheetos or... SOMETHING. Would it be appropriate to shoehorn anyone of those things (or ALL those things) into Revenge of the Fallen as the focus of a sub-plot? Better yet, would they have forced the stuff I listed above into other widely accepted 'good' movies like "Spiderman" or "The Dark Knight" or heck, even the Star Wars Prequels?

 

My point is this: Just because something is entertaining (popping bubble wrap for the win!) Doesn't mean it NEEDS to be in your movie.

Put something that adds to the film. Do a new take on something that is integral to the film, Jetfire was funny, yeah? He's a Transformer! Funny transformers are appropriate! It's called Transformers!

 

Or use some of that time to explain a little of the subtext in a fight scene where a corvette cuts an Audi in half. That's all I'm saying.

So... in other words, they were too lazy/unprepared to move him.

Not at all. The mission wasn't to capture any prisoners, it was a seek and destroy mission, no prisoners. And, he was dying anyway.

... why would that make it better?

I'm not sure I get your question. Make what better? They weren't being lazy or unprepared for prisoners. As others have mentioned, taking prisoners really wasn't an option anyway. They certainly had equipment prepared to remove any evidence (including the bodies), and, if they had wanted to take prisoners, they would have still fit on board the transports. The problem was that it was too risky, for starters. Then there is the issue of taking live enemies into a secure, secret facility—enemies with built-in communiucations systems, and thus, could transmit the Autobots' location to their superiors which would compromise the Autobtos' position. It's just too risky.

Okay, let's try putting this into perspective... let's pretend they're people. They go on a mission to hunt town a terrorist cell hiding in an urban environment. They run, and kill one while running. That I'm completely fine with.

 

However, they manage to stop the other one, and cripple him. Rather than capture him, they execute him on-site. How does saying "IT WAS A SEEK AND DESTROY MISSION" make them seem any better? They're just not willing to not kill anyone? They can more than likely block transmissions, and call me crazy, but maybe, just maybe, Prime would have gotten more info from Demolisher if he didn't simply shoot him in the face when he resists.

Yes, but the problem is that in a movie, that is impossible. There simply isn't enough time. Movies have a very limited amount of time to tell their story. They can't do that and give characterization to every single character, particularly when it is a large cast, like in RotF. The majority of characters will have to be primarily background characters with little, if any, actual characterization. It's just the nature of the medium

 

This is a very good argument. In fact it is a great argument.

 

But there is a flip-side. That being that there is a large amount of what could arguably be referred to as "Waste" in ROTF. Simply wasted scenes; In a film called "Transformers", many of which had little or nothing to do with actual Transformers:

 

Dogs Humping.

Kitchen Appliances turning into violent little savages.

Mothers getting high.

The whole thing with that "new government guy" sub-plot.

The 'Roommate' sub plot

The Alice Subplot. ("Trim" please, also the Mikaela/ Sam stuff, it isn't really integral, and much was unnecessary.)

The Twins' myriad of scenes. (They aren't real characters, M. Bay made em up with old character names. Give this time to REAL characters; sub in Sideswipe and Arcee in a similar but alternate role; I can see them bickering a good bit.)

Downsize the time it took to Re-introduce John Turturro's character, as well as the time it takes to get to the delightfully show stealing Jetfire.

Most of the schlepping around Egypt. (Border guard Micro-Plot? Really?)

Scenes of Military people chatting with each other about military stuff that didn't affect the plot. (Arguing about contacting the boys in the field? How is this a plot point?)

And then many of those explosions that didn't seem to have a cause.

 

Now I'm sure someone will say: "Hey! I liked some of that stuff!" but to that I say this: Lets say you like, I don't know (it's hypothetical) Dragon Ball Z, or the Super Bowl, or cheetos or... SOMETHING. Would it be appropriate to shoehorn anyone of those things (or ALL those things) into Revenge of the Fallen as the focus of a sub-plot? Better yet, would they have forced the stuff I listed above into other widely accepted 'good' movies like "Spiderman" or "The Dark Knight" or heck, even the Star Wars Prequels?

 

My point is this: Just because something is entertaining (popping bubble wrap for the win!) Doesn't mean it NEEDS to be in your movie.

Put something that adds to the film. Do a new take on something that is integral to the film, Jetfire was funny, yeah? He's a Transformer! Funny transformers are appropriate! It's called Transformers!

 

Or use some of that time to explain a little of the subtext in a fight scene where a corvette cuts an Audi in half. That's all I'm saying.

Here's the thing. They did enhance the subplots. The antics of his mother showed the family dynamics and how Sam and his parents were dealing with his going off to college. It set the stage for his time in college, which in turn set up the rest of the plot. The whole "roommate" subplot also established Sam's getting settled and introducing Leo, who was (for better or worse) a major supporting character in this movie. Alice is what forced Sam and his friends into the adventure, and ultimately prepared them for their next trial by fire. The Appliance bots sequence demonstrated that the power of the All Spark was still alive, and set the stage for everything else happening to Sam. The Dogs humping, was just comedy, showing the normal things happening in a typical house. The "schlepping" through Egypt establishes that this is a long quest, and that time is passing rather than simply popping from location to location, having Sam and his group easily finding each piece. It also gives the audience time to digest what's been happening and provide more character development to the main characters. Like it or not, but Skids and Mudflap were part of the maingroup of characters.

So... in other words, they were too lazy/unprepared to move him.

Not at all. The mission wasn't to capture any prisoners, it was a seek and destroy mission, no prisoners. And, he was dying anyway.

... why would that make it better?

I'm not sure I get your question. Make what better? They weren't being lazy or unprepared for prisoners. As others have mentioned, taking prisoners really wasn't an option anyway. They certainly had equipment prepared to remove any evidence (including the bodies), and, if they had wanted to take prisoners, they would have still fit on board the transports. The problem was that it was too risky, for starters. Then there is the issue of taking live enemies into a secure, secret facility—enemies with built-in communiucations systems, and thus, could transmit the Autobots' location to their superiors which would compromise the Autobtos' position. It's just too risky.

Okay, let's try putting this into perspective... let's pretend they're people. They go on a mission to hunt town a terrorist cell hiding in an urban environment. They run, and kill one while running. That I'm completely fine with.

 

However, they manage to stop the other one, and cripple him. Rather than capture him, they execute him on-site. How does saying "IT WAS A SEEK AND DESTROY MISSION" make them seem any better? They're just not willing to not kill anyone? They can more than likely block transmissions, and call me crazy, but maybe, just maybe, Prime would have gotten more info from Demolisher if he didn't simply shoot him in the face when he resists.

Except Optimus didn't simply "cripple" Demolishor. He mortally wounded him. Demolishor was going to die anyway. So let's put your terrorist scenario up again, and replace "Crippled" with mortally wounded. You have a mortally wounded enemy who isn't going to survive much longer because of severe head trauma you inflicted upon him. On top of that, but he has a transmitter implanted inside of is body as well as explosives. Are you still going to try and take him alive? No. you're going to end his life, put him out of his misery, and keep him from compromising the security of their base, or perhaps causing major damage to it and the personnel inside, or even setting them off immediately and taking you with him right then and there as well as half of the area around you causing massive numbers of casualties. This happened in Vietnam on many occasions. What Optimus did was necessary. Demolishor was already dying and he still remained a threat. There was one option and one option only, put him down for good.