So, out of curiosity, have I made a good argument? Or am I just being "full of it"? Seriously. :shrug

I would say that's the best summary of the situation so far. :)

 

I would also suggest that perhaps one of the key issues here is that, irrespective of whether or not the killings in question were legal and / or justified, they still do little to depict the Autobots in a sympathetic light. I would analogize a situation in which Luke Skywalker destroys the Death Star using an even bigger, more impressive Death Star of his own construction. Visually impressive? Yes. Entertaining? Maybe. Someone you can root for? Not so much. Much better the heroic struggle against impossible odds, no?

 

Think of it this way: If this was a different type of action movie with two teams of humans fighting against each other, you'd get some cool scenes of fighting with unnamed characters. The only reason it gets to people here is because we want to see every single character get fleshed out more because we're already familiar with them, and because they each look more unique than individual humans do.

It's completely understandable that any time a franchise with an entire cast of characters is adapted for the relatively short running time of a film, then some characters are going to be relegated to the background or even dismissed entirely.

 

What you have here however, is something a little different - essentially, a Chekhov's gun scenario. The filmmakers took a background character - Sideswipe - and then moved him into the foreground (and even gave him a pose... good god) and then moved him back into the background as if nothing had happened. This sets up an expectation on the part of the audience that is not fulfilled. It is poor storytelling and, from the standpoint of designing, building, animating and rendering an entire character for a sequence just over twenty seconds long it is incredibly wasteful.

 

Indeed, I opine that the filmmakers should have cut some characters! I would have had no problem with the Arcee triplets being absent. Production time and resources allocated to these three characters could have gone elsewhere, and their role in the chase could have gone to Sideswipe which, if nothing else, would have made him appear slightly less summary in killing his opponent. Hell, even Sideswipe and Sideways could have been cut, along with Jolt. That's six whole characters right there... how much in the way of time and resources could have been applied to the rest of the computer-rendered cast as a result?

Well said.

I don't buy it....

Okidoki, then..if Prime wasn't ready to finish Megatron in the 86 film, why would he be pointing his weapon at him? Why would he use the last of his strength to knock Megatron off the ledge?

 

I'm starting to think you're looking at the story of Transformers through some sort of rose-tinted Volkswagen windows. As much as Volkswagen wants to deny their history, they were involved with war. Just as the Transformers, too, are involved in an war.

 

 

 

No, I just think there is a difference when you are fighting for your life in the actual heat of battle and when you are just standing there in front of a seemingly defenceless advasary.

 

Think of it this way... If a cop was in a fight with someone he would fight to kill the other if necessary. But if he had already beaten that person down he would then be trying to take them in to custody and not finish them off. If said criminal than tried to attack the police officer during the handcuffing whatever the cop would shoot to save his life.

 

But that being said I think the same case applies with prime in 86. He had megs down and was taking him into custody, when his life or another autobots became endangered the situation changed and he did what he had to do. The thing was the actions fit the exact situational moment not "Total agression non stop."

Optimus Prime isn't a cop, he's a soldier, a military officer. He's fighting a war, not arresting criminals. That is a big distinction.

 

 

 

 

A soldier? Even when we were in Iraq looking for war criminals and doing sweeps from house to house, we weren't allowed to shoot the person if they were not actively trying to flee or endangering yourself or someone else. It didn't matter what they had done before. You don't shoot someone begging/pleading for their life or just because they are strugling to get away or being an @$$.

 

And again Like I said actively fighting is different but Prime was not activly fighting at the time and I (IMHO) do not believe he had any intention of killing megs no matter how angry he may have been because it is just not who he is....

I don't buy it....

Okidoki, then..if Prime wasn't ready to finish Megatron in the 86 film, why would he be pointing his weapon at him? Why would he use the last of his strength to knock Megatron off the ledge?

 

I'm starting to think you're looking at the story of Transformers through some sort of rose-tinted Volkswagen windows. As much as Volkswagen wants to deny their history, they were involved with war. Just as the Transformers, too, are involved in an war.

 

 

 

No, I just think there is a difference when you are fighting for your life in the actual heat of battle and when you are just standing there in front of a seemingly defenceless advasary.

 

Think of it this way... If a cop was in a fight with someone he would fight to kill the other if necessary. But if he had already beaten that person down he would then be trying to take them in to custody and not finish them off. If said criminal than tried to attack the police officer during the handcuffing whatever the cop would shoot to save his life.

 

But that being said I think the same case applies with prime in 86. He had megs down and was taking him into custody, when his life or another autobots became endangered the situation changed and he did what he had to do. The thing was the actions fit the exact situational moment not "Total agression non stop."

Optimus Prime isn't a cop, he's a soldier, a military officer. He's fighting a war, not arresting criminals. That is a big distinction.

 

 

 

 

A soldier? Even when we were in Iraq looking for war criminals and doing sweeps from house to house, we weren't allowed to shoot the person if they were not actively trying to flee or endangering yourself or someone else. It didn't matter what they had done before. You don't shoot someone begging/pleading for their life or just because they are strugling to get away or being an @$$.

 

And again Like I said actively fighting is different but Prime was not activly fighting at the time and I (IMHO) do not believe he had any intention of killing megs no matter how angry he may have been because it is just not who he is....

Because that wasn't your mission. You mission was to seek and capture. The Autobots' mission was to seek and destroy, not capture. In the 86 movie, Optimus was going to kill Megatron, not arrest him. He was going to kill him outright. Megatron was too big of a threat. Also, in RotF, Demolisher wasn't begging or pleading for his life. He was still taunting Prime and the Autobots. He was still trying to fight even though he was mortally wounded and already dying. The mission was to seek out and terminate any Deceptiocns found with extreme prejudice.

You know, I wonder how many different views people could have on this because we both know that a lot of people go with both sides. Honestly I don't think this debate can be answered unless hasbro or the original TFTM writers said it straight out one way or another.

 

Maybe it would be a good question for the next ask hasbro thread.... Would OP have killed megs in 86 or captured him if he actually tried to surrender?

I don't buy it....

Okidoki, then..if Prime wasn't ready to finish Megatron in the 86 film, why would he be pointing his weapon at him? Why would he use the last of his strength to knock Megatron off the ledge?

 

I'm starting to think you're looking at the story of Transformers through some sort of rose-tinted Volkswagen windows. As much as Volkswagen wants to deny their history, they were involved with war. Just as the Transformers, too, are involved in an war.

 

 

 

No, I just think there is a difference when you are fighting for your life in the actual heat of battle and when you are just standing there in front of a seemingly defenceless advasary.

 

Think of it this way... If a cop was in a fight with someone he would fight to kill the other if necessary. But if he had already beaten that person down he would then be trying to take them in to custody and not finish them off. If said criminal than tried to attack the police officer during the handcuffing whatever the cop would shoot to save his life.

 

But that being said I think the same case applies with prime in 86. He had megs down and was taking him into custody, when his life or another autobots became endangered the situation changed and he did what he had to do. The thing was the actions fit the exact situational moment not "Total agression non stop."

Optimus Prime isn't a cop, he's a soldier, a military officer. He's fighting a war, not arresting criminals. That is a big distinction.

 

 

 

 

A soldier? Even when we were in Iraq looking for war criminals and doing sweeps from house to house, we weren't allowed to shoot the person if they were not actively trying to flee or endangering yourself or someone else. It didn't matter what they had done before. You don't shoot someone begging/pleading for their life or just because they are strugling to get away or being an @$$.

 

And again Like I said actively fighting is different but Prime was not activly fighting at the time and I (IMHO) do not believe he had any intention of killing megs no matter how angry he may have been because it is just not who he is....

 

Prime was most definitely actively fighting. He certainly wasn't clamoring for peace at that point. Every action Prime made in TFTM was either implicitly or explicitly aimed at killing Megatron. Also, let's not forget what effect Kup and Hot Rod had on running over the Insecticons. They looked like they had been destroyed by the time Kup and Hot Rod were through with them. A single shot from Scavenger's standard laser pistol ashed Prowl. Now, Prime ran over a few Decepticons (he's a lot heavier and stronger than Kup and Hot Rod combined) and blasted many others with his heavy laser blaster. I'd bet that more than a few of the 'Cons who got jettisoned into space were the direct result of Prime's handiwork. They were at the point of death. Let's also not forget that he directed the Dinobots to 'destroy Devastator.'

 

Prime was playing for keeps.

 

G1 Prime was out to eliminate the Decepticons via the use of deadly force. Bayverse Prime holds the same ideology. G1 Prime evolved from someone more ready to deal peacefully with his foes to someone who saw that the Decepticons were never going to stop, and could not be dealt with peacefully...and Prime changed accordingly. This is from G1 all the way to the Bayverse. The characterization is consistent. Maybe a little unsavory, but then again, war is just that.

^so your saying, if megs had never grabbed that gun in TFTH while he was begging for his life Prime would have still killed him on the spot and not brought him in for justice?

^so your saying, if megs had never grabbed that gun in TFTH while he was begging for his life Prime would have still killed him on the spot and not brought him in for justice?

Absolutely. That's exactly what Prime was going to do. He was going to put Megatron down once and for all.

^so your saying, if megs had never grabbed that gun in TFTH while he was begging for his life Prime would have still killed him on the spot and not brought him in for justice?

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. Hot Rod just got in the way. Megatron was an imminent threat of the absolute worst kind. He threatened both Earth and Cybertron with extinction (untold billions of lives threatened in The Ultimate Doom alone). Megatron could not be bargained with or reasoned with...all that aaaaaaaaannnd: Megatron DID infiltrate Autobot City and he and his troops killed off apparently almost every Autobot from Season 1 and would have killed more AND destroyed Autobot City AND would have went on to conquer the Earth and enslave the human race and then eventually destroyed it outright.

 

Optimus Prime, IMO, based on what I saw in TFTM, was going to kill Megatron--and every Decepticon luckless enough to cross his path--at the first opportunity

^so your saying, if megs had never grabbed that gun in TFTH while he was begging for his life Prime would have still killed him on the spot and not brought him in for justice?

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. Hot Rod just got in the way. Megatron was an imminent threat of the absolute worst kind. He threatened both Earth and Cybertron with extinction (untold billions of lives threatened in The Ultimate Doom alone). Megatron could not be bargained with or reasoned with...all that aaaaaaaaannnd: Megatron DID infiltrate Autobot City and he and his troops killed off apparently almost every Autobot from Season 1 and would have killed more AND destroyed Autobot City AND would have went on to conquer the Earth and enslave the human race and then eventually destroyed it outright.

 

Optimus Prime, IMO, based on what I saw in TFTM, was going to kill Megatron--and every Decepticon luckless enough to cross his path--at the first opportunity

Precisely, and it was the same with Demolisher. Optimus was out for "blood", so to speak. No prisoners, no quarter asked or given. Find the Decepticons where they're hold up and terminate with extreme prejudice. That was the mission. End the war once and for all.