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Sliding away from the idea that he HAD to transform for this...

 

REMEMBER, WE ARE NOT USING THE CARTOON FOR REFERENCES!!!

 

The mass of a tape player is approximately one kilogram.

 

Thus, the mass of the equipment of such a mode would be identical.

 

Why turn into a tape player when this twenty five ton, thirty foot robot can simply build something identical into, say, his shoulder? One kilogramwill not exactly suddenly ake him immobile. It doesn't to me.

 

Okay, now he's got all those capabilities in his robot mode. What should his alt mode be? IMHO, something closer to War Within Soundwave, sort of a tank-sized land carrier, where his "cassettes" are whatever he launches. And today, that could be a modified LAV designed to launch UAV's, with the UAV's being Buzzsaw and Laserbeak, and ground based drones being Ravave, Rumble, and Frenzy. And nothing anyone says can convince me that a tape player Alt mode would be required by any sane robot of Soundwave's size and rank.

 

 

Now, as for mass-shifting:

 

Let's try and put this into a little perspective. Okay, so Autobot A, Autobot B, and Autobot C come to Earth in their Cybertronian modes. Autobot A is about one ton and stands about fifteen feet tall, Autobot B weighs five tons and stands twenty two feet tall, and Autobot C weighs three tons and stands eighteen and a half feet tall. However, the closest Earth mode they can find to scan happen to be nearly identical trucks - say they all happen to be almost identical in Cybertronian mode to a Humvee (the original, not the H2 or H3, I hate those). So, they scan the Hummer. A hummer is 2.6 American tons, and is fifteen feet long. This is half the mass of Autobot B, and more than twice the mass of Autobot A, but pretty durn close to the mass of Autobot C. So rather than Autobot A getting bigger and Autobot B getting smaller, their systems compromise. It's not that often a Humvee will be picked up, so Autobot A uses the "shifting plates" bit to expand his systems a bit to fill out the extra volume. Autobot B, on the other hand, would have trouble compressing his plates, as this would leave us with a Humvee that can't take a passenger - and thus pretty much useless as a disguise ("Hey, I opened the door of this Hummer and there's a solid wall behind it!"). So instead, he has to figure out what to do with his extra mass.

 

Okay, so now we finally have a "why" on Mass Shifting - disguise, as the closest possible Earth Alt Mode. Borrowing on what Hunter Rose started, here's my suggestion:

 

1 ) Most of the actual exterior armor plates, as well as critical computer systems, would not be affected. They would be retained, and flip and rearrange into the body (and electrical system?) of this new alt mode.

 

2 ) Secondary systems that would not be required in the new alt mode, and composed of common elements such as silicon or iron, would be what is sacrificed. Rather than expelling this mass as energy, or "shunting it extradimensionally", it's broken down on a much larger scale by internal nanites, and ejected as a powder. The molecular makeup would not be changed from whatever it is, and simply expelled. When the TF transforms back, the nanites discretely yet rapidly scour its immediate area for those specific molecules and materials, chop 'em up, and use them to reconstitute the lost sub-systems. This means that every time it transforms to alt mode, it leaves (depending on how much it can compress itself into the Hummer shape) one to two tons of fine powder in a puff of dust, while it leaves a crater beneath it, with a depth and radius depending on how rapidly the nanites can move during the transformation sequence, upon retaking robot mode.

 

3 ) Autobot A will have absolutely no limitations on its opportunity to transform, but will end up slightly more vulnerable in alt mode because its armor plates have thinned out to make up the extra volume. Autobot B will have distinct limitations on when and where he can transform ("Humbot, did you take vehicle mode inside the base again? The library is dusty as heck while the rec room is missing its carpet again!"), and Autobot C would be in the best shape of the three of them (no limits, and no gained vulnerability).

 

Tactically speaking, Autobot C is in the best shape overall. So it would probably behoove A and B to just keep looking for a different alt mode.

 

You are awesome! However lets just think about two TONS of dust shooting out some robots ass for a moment.

:lol

thats sandblaster quality expulsion, no matter how fine the dust is.

Additionly Autobot B is rebuilding himself out of EARTH material each time - its likely that hes going to be a lot weaker than those made of Cybertronian materiials.

 

 

Tramp, did Cybertron Soundwave turn into a tape deck? Was he not recognizeable as "Soundwave"? Or am I hallucinating?

:tflaugh Damn you and your common sense!

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So why would a tape deck from the 70s be the ONLY way an alien robot could communicate with his base? or plug into Teletran1? or steal millitary secrets?

A tape deck from the 70s wouldn't. The modern equivalent would though. The original Soundwave was a tape deck because that wa the current standard for redoring and play-back devices. For personal recording, this is still the case except on the computer. For everything else, we have CDs, thus a portable AM/FM stereo system with tape and CD functions woudl be the optimum alt mode and modern equivalent to his original mode.

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You are awesome! However lets just think about two TONS of dust shooting out some robots ass for a moment.

:lol

thats sandblaster quality expulsion, no matter how fine the dust is.

Additionly Autobot B is rebuilding himself out of EARTH material each time - its likely that hes going to be a lot weaker than those made of Cybertronian materiials.

 

Silicon is silicon, no matter what world it's on. That's why the systems ejected would be comprised of the simpler materials. If they use electromagnetic actuators for movement in bot mode, for example, that's a PRIME source. :P

 

As for the sandblaster bit, it depends on how long the transform takes. Yes, a G1-style "half second" transform with the dust being released omnidirectionally would be a relatively rough shockwave for any fleshies nearby, but not quite damaging to other TF's. If it's a fifteen second long Galaxy Force style, then it's more like dumping it out of the back of a dump truck. Messy, but nothing to write home about. :D

 

 

As for "common sense", I think that's the first time I've ever heard that term applied to me. :D

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Tramp, did Cybertron Soundwave turn into a tape deck? Was he not recognizeable as "Soundwave"? Or am I hallucinating?

He turned into the Cybertronian equivalent, which would be closer to a CD player, based upon the way the door in his chest was designed, and the fact that they use CD style disks for recording, as evidenced in the comic itself. So, yes, he did turn into a recordign device, unlike the unused concept sketch Don first came up with, which really was not all that recognizable as Soundwave.

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You are awesome! However lets just think about two TONS of dust shooting out some robots ass for a moment.

:lol

thats sandblaster quality expulsion, no matter how fine the dust is.

Additionly Autobot B is rebuilding himself out of EARTH material each time - its likely that hes going to be a lot weaker than those made of Cybertronian materiials.

 

Silicon is silicon, no matter what world it's on. That's why the systems ejected would be comprised of the simpler materials. If they use electromagnetic actuators for movement in bot mode, for example, that's a PRIME source. :P

 

As for the sandblaster bit, it depends on how long the transform takes. Yes, a G1-style "half second" transform with the dust being released omnidirectionally would be a relatively rough shockwave for any fleshies nearby, but not quite damaging to other TF's. If it's a fifteen second long Galaxy Force style, then it's more like dumping it out of the back of a dump truck. Messy, but nothing to write home about. :D

 

 

As for "common sense", I think that's the first time I've ever heard that term applied to me. :D

Expelling matter out in order to compress isn't necessary if you can actually compress and rearrainge the atoms and molecules themselves, which is the essense of mass conversion. That is how canon explains it too.

 

Dude, I'm referring to Cybertron / Galaxy Force.

 

Where he turned into a Stealth Bomber.

 

And he was recognizeable as Soundwave.

Sure, in the face and colorscheme maybe, not function. He wasn't "Soundwave". He didn't serve as a Communications officer for the Decepticons. He didn't record or play back data for Megatron, nor did he even have that capability. Really, what was he? His persoinality, his function, they were all very different from the character we are all familiar with. He was not truely Soundwave. He just had the name and face.

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The energy requirements needed to rearrange and compress mass would be astronomical. Effectively what your doing is attempting to overcome both weak and strong nuclear forces. If a transformer had the energy requirements to overcome these forces, then its firepower output would be enough to eradicate cities in a single blast. After all, overcoming these forces is the basis behind nuclear weaponry, and that's just splitting it. Compressing it would require several orders of magnitude more energy, on par with an anti-matter / matter reaction at severely dangerous (rad: Possible crust-cracking) levels.

 

Expulsion of mass via the method described not only requires an infinitessimal FRACTION of the energy atomic compression requires, it also is MUCH less dangerous.

 

And finally, that line of technobabble is just that, technobabble. If you COULD rearrange and compress your atoms and molecules, then you have a problem: Twenty five ton, thirty foot Soundwave turns into a seven inch, twenty five ton tape player. None of that babble explains anything about mass, only volume.

 

Sure, in the face and colorscheme maybe, not function. He wasn't "Soundwave". He didn't serve as a Communications officer for the Decepticons. He didn't record or play back data for Megatron, nor did he even have that capability. Really, what was he? His persoinality, his function, they were all very different from the character we are all familiar with. He was not truely Soundwave. He just had the name and face.

 

Ah, I see.

 

A GeeWun purist.

 

Already complaining why Megatron isn't a gun, why Prime isn't a cab-nosed semi, why Ironhide isn't a red minivan, and so on? Because that's what it sounds like to me.

 

If you read the INITIAL part of my first post in this thread, I gave a VERY specific way he could retain his position within Decepticon heirarchy without having to deal with mass compression. And Cyb/GF Soundwave demonstrates that something OTHER than a tape deck can be recognizeable as Soundwave in robot form.

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The energy requirements needed to rearrange and compress mass would be astronomical. Effectively what your doing is attempting to overcome both weak and strong nuclear forces. If a transformer had the energy requirements to overcome these forces, then its firepower output would be enough to eradicate cities in a single blast. After all, overcoming these forces is the basis behind nuclear weaponry, and that's just splitting it. Compressing it would require several orders of magnitude more energy, on par with an anti-matter / matter reaction at severely dangerous (rad: Possible crust-cracking) levels.

 

Expulsion of mass via the method described not only requires an infinitessimal FRACTION of the energy atomic compression requires, it also is MUCH less dangerous.

 

And finally, that line of technobabble is just that, technobabble. If you COULD rearrange and compress your atoms and molecules, then you have a problem: Twenty five ton, thirty foot Soundwave turns into a seven inch, twenty five ton tape player. None of that babble explains anything about mass, only volume.

And, do you think the average joe knows that or even cares when he is watching a movie to be entertained? No. That is what suspension of disbelief is for. Sure it's techno-babble. Your point? Technobabble is ubiquitous to science fiction. Name one science fiction show or movie without any technobabble or fantastic elements in it. The definition of Mass conversion in TF; MtMtE #8 states that the very subatomic particles restructure themselves in order to reduce the size and mass of the Transformer in question. Is that fantastic? Sure it is. So what. That same idea has been used in science fiction and comic books for decades. It is a staple of the genre. The trick is to make people believe it possible even if the laws of physics say otherwise. (Sound in space anyone?)

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Tramp, dude, give it up. Your whole argument breaks down to one thing: G1 purism.

 

This movie is NOT the G1 cartoon.

 

It is NOT War Within.

 

It is NOT the Marvel comics.

 

It is NOT Armada/Energon/Cybertron.

 

It is NOT Beast Wars.

 

It's something new, based on the success of the brand, that borrows from what came before, and yet will stand alone and totally kick ass.

 

The original Takara toy Soundwave was based on didn't mass-shift; his robot mode was the exact same size as the tape deck he turned into. Hasbro, wanting to make the character more impressive as (GASP!) a marketing ploy, made Soundwave mass-shift on the show (which was just a commercial for the toys). That's the only reason for G1 mass-shifting--because bratty American kids wouldn't take to the idea of a foot-high robot and his three-inch minions as vital characters in a show about giant robots. It's also why Megatron mass-shifts, because a six-inch-high robot commands little respect among giants.

 

I sometimes wonder what things would be like if Hasbro had made some other Diaclone molds into Megatron and Soundwave. We wouldn't even be having this argument.

 

Get your mind off G1. Cut the purist crap. If you want a G1 movie, go to film school, make a bunch of lousy romantic comedies and horror flicks that will get you the production capital you need, buy the rights and spend a couple hundred mil only to have the studio shoot it down at the last minute because every test audience thinks it looks like garbage.

 

Get with the program, man. This ain't your movie and it ain't your series. Watch it, buy a toy or two, and enjoy it for what it is while basking in some little amount of vindication for our fandom. Or don't, and just sit on your butt at home blogging about how much it sucks and wiping away your tears with Reissue Soundwave's instruction sheets while the rest of us go have fun. Seriously. This is ludicrous.

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Tramp, I'm sorry dude but you're just making this slag up at this point. I wish I was on a first name basis with the Transformers too, but that don't make it so. You don't have some kind of preeminant athouity to dictate things like, this would be the only way for this or that to happen. Your arguments are getting to be dependant on the notion that YOU are the arbiter of all G1 FACT, and well, you're not. Even if you were it wouldn't affect the movie one bit.

 

Audiences will accept what they expect. Most movies have no talking in space anymore, people are in genral more knowegable. But if somthing visually rediculous happens it ends the suspension of disbelief and then they remember there are no giant robots and if there were they probably wouldn't be alive and then leave the theater thinking "boy that movie was dumb". Suspension of disbief has to be created and carefully maintained. It's more like glass slippers than a crutch. You put to much pressure on it and your movie stops working. Sci-fi fantasy movies have to be careful what they do because one wrong move can make there whole movie as cheesy as say and 80's cartoon.

 

Lest we forget why fans made up the Mass Shifting retcon in the first place. Becuase even in a cartoon when sw or megs transformed we knew it looked wrong and need an an explanation, so we made one up. Retconing so dumb things in fantasy/sci-fi make sense is a Fanboy notion. Most people won't make or Take an excuse for somthing that doesn't make sense to their eyes, they just leave it where it lays.

 

One more thing...

 

On Cybertron in the cartoon... he turned into unidentified kibble on the side of the road. Com Tower? Scanner? LAMP? We don't know! Get over it.

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