If Megatron didn't turn into something with a large gun attached, such as being an actual gun or turning into a tank, he wouldn't have his fusion cannon in his alt mode. IF he turned into a car, or a jet, he wouldn't have his main gun. Only by turning into an alt mode designed specifically with firepower in mind (a gun or a tank), he would lose his main weapon when he transformes.

 

This is, honestly, the worst logic ever. If Megatron has to turn into a gun to have a gun, then why did any other Transformer ever have a gun?

 

Even if you want to talk about a special piece of weaponry, like Megatron's fusion cannon, it still doesn't hold water when compared to other Transformers...why would a Semi Truck have an energon axe, or why would a cassette tape have pile drivers?

 

And, as for the passengers of a van being the only ones who can hear communications, I think if he can reconfigure into a robot, he can manage to point his speakers elsewhere. :roll

If Megatron didn't turn into something with a large gun attached, such as being an actual gun or turning into a tank, he wouldn't have his fusion cannon in his alt mode. IF he turned into a car, or a jet, he wouldn't have his main gun. Only by turning into an alt mode designed specifically with firepower in mind (a gun or a tank), he would lose his main weapon when he transformes.

 

This is, honestly, the worst logic ever. If Megatron has to turn into a gun to have a gun, then why did any other Transformer ever have a gun?

 

Even if you want to talk about a special piece of weaponry, like Megatron's fusion cannon, it still doesn't hold water when compared to other Transformers...why would a Semi Truck have an energon axe, or why would a cassette tape have pile drivers?

 

And, as for the passengers of a van being the only ones who can hear communications, I think if he can reconfigure into a robot, he can manage to point his speakers elsewhere. :roll

Did you even read what I said? I said that if he didn't transform into something designed specifically as a wepon, (i.e. a gun or a tank), he would not have his main fusion cannon in his alternate mode. It doesn't matter what weapons he has in robot mode if he can't access them in his alternate mode, which is what made Megatron so powerful even thoguh he had to have someone else pull the trigger. When Megatron turned into a pistol, all of his internal components became devoted to firing his weapon, and thus increased the power of his fusion cannon immensely. The same is true of his tank mode in War Within. He retained his main weapon in his alt mode with the added benefit of increased power with that weapon.

 

As for Soundwave. Having to transform back into robot mode in order to allow others to hear the communication he received is pretty useless considering that it is his alt mode that should be best suited for communications, not his robot mode. by being a radio, stereo system tape deck, etc, he can immediately allow others to hear the transmissions he is intercepting or play back recordings by his minions, and transmit communications out. The robot mode is for combat and mobility. The alt mode is for his primary communications function and for disguise.

If Megatron didn't turn into something with a large gun attached, such as being an actual gun or turning into a tank, he wouldn't have his fusion cannon in his alt mode. IF he turned into a car, or a jet, he wouldn't have his main gun. Only by turning into an alt mode designed specifically with firepower in mind (a gun or a tank), he would lose his main weapon when he transformes.

 

This is, honestly, the worst logic ever. If Megatron has to turn into a gun to have a gun, then why did any other Transformer ever have a gun?

 

Even if you want to talk about a special piece of weaponry, like Megatron's fusion cannon, it still doesn't hold water when compared to other Transformers...why would a Semi Truck have an energon axe, or why would a cassette tape have pile drivers?

 

And, as for the passengers of a van being the only ones who can hear communications, I think if he can reconfigure into a robot, he can manage to point his speakers elsewhere. :roll

 

I love how Tramp keeps comparing these Cars and stuff to their pilots as if the concept of pilots is even relevant to TFs :tflaugh

 

BTW a news/survelance van can broadcast out to their home bases

In fact i am pretty sure that Planes can broadcast back to mission control or something.

 

:lol

this is like watching Planet Terror - i am just roffling from the stupidity.

There's a reason why they call it "broadcasting" BTW.

 

And with that I advise Hobbes and Tramp to exchange IM account names and keep us posted on their discussion. I'm not locking the thread yet but since this discussion has gone back and forth without anyone saying "huh, maybe you're right" I am sorely tempted to.

Did you even read what I said? I said that if he didn't transform into something designed specifically as a wepon, (i.e. a gun or a tank), he would not have his main fusion cannon in his alternate mode.

 

You're right, I did mistake your comment for robot mode, not alt. mode. But the point still stands: lots of Transformers have specific abilities and equipment which has nothing to do with their alt. mode...which is another strong case for Soundwave not being a stereo.

 

It doesn't matter what weapons he has in robot mode if he can't access them in his alternate mode, which is what made Megatron so powerful even thoguh he had to have someone else pull the trigger. When Megatron turned into a pistol, all of his internal components became devoted to firing his weapon, and thus increased the power of his fusion cannon immensely. The same is true of his tank mode in War Within. He retained his main weapon in his alt mode with the added benefit of increased power with that weapon.

 

That's all speculation.

 

As for Soundwave. Having to transform back into robot mode in order to allow others to hear the communication he received is pretty useless considering that it is his alt mode that should be best suited for communications, not his robot mode.

 

That's like saying Ratchet should be better equipped to repair Autobots in his ambulance mode.

 

Any primary functions should be capable of being performed in robot mode, or you're a pretty ineffective soldier.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Remember that the disguise aspect is about hiding not only from your enemies, but from the natives of an alien planet. And as Transformers perform missions on other planets, their alt. modes would change accordingly.

 

We're use to their story keeping them on Earth for a good long time, so we don't second guess this, but as they developed their technology for battle, they certainly didn't rely on coming to Earth. They didn't even know it existed.

 

I mean, what if Soundwave was needed for Decepticon communications on a planet rich in energy, but where the natives were all telepaths, and didn't need any communications technology? A communications device alt. mode wouldn't do him much good then, would it?

 

It's just poor planning to rely on every battlefield having some sort of useful-to-you technology to adapt to your needs, and it's exactly why Soundwave (or any Transformer) would want to equipped with the equipment he needs to do his job in robot mode, so that no matter what he needs to turn into to hide, he's not completely useless to his team. END EDIT

 

Alt. modes should be about disguise first, mobility (i.e. flying and stuff) second and minor functions (i.e. other weapons, or being able to tow broken down Autobots, etc.) third. It just gets you the most bang for your buck that way (speaking from a Transformer's Point of View).

 

There's a reason why they call it "broadcasting" BTW.

 

And with that I advise Hobbes and Tramp to exchange IM account names and keep us posted on their discussion. I'm not locking the thread yet but since this discussion has gone back and forth without anyone saying "huh, maybe you're right" I am sorely tempted to.

 

Lock it? I admit that there has been some circular discussion going on, but this is like, the most civil discussion on the Movie ever.

There's a reason why they call it "broadcasting" BTW.

 

And with that I advise Hobbes and Tramp to exchange IM account names and keep us posted on their discussion. I'm not locking the thread yet but since this discussion has gone back and forth without anyone saying "huh, maybe you're right" I am sorely tempted to.

 

Lock it? I admit that there has been some circular discussion going on, but this is like, the most civil discussion on the Movie ever.

All right, but you're on notice.

 

 

Did you even read what I said? I said that if he didn't transform into something designed specifically as a wepon, (i.e. a gun or a tank), he would not have his main fusion cannon in his alternate mode.

 

You're right, I did mistake your comment for robot mode, not alt. mode. But the point still stands: lots of Transformers have specific abilities and equipment which has nothing to do with their alt. mode...which is another strong case for Soundwave not being a stereo.

 

It doesn't matter what weapons he has in robot mode if he can't access them in his alternate mode, which is what made Megatron so powerful even thoguh he had to have someone else pull the trigger. When Megatron turned into a pistol, all of his internal components became devoted to firing his weapon, and thus increased the power of his fusion cannon immensely. The same is true of his tank mode in War Within. He retained his main weapon in his alt mode with the added benefit of increased power with that weapon.

 

That's all speculation.

 

Actually, no, it isn't. Megatron's entry in TF: More than Meets the Ey #3 specifically states that his destructive power is much more concentrated in his alt mode, but his ammunition is more limited.

 

As for Soundwave. Having to transform back into robot mode in order to allow others to hear the communication he received is pretty useless considering that it is his alt mode that should be best suited for communications, not his robot mode.

 

That's like saying Ratchet should be better equipped to repair Autobots in his ambulance mode.

 

Actually, he is. More accurately, he can transport wounded to safer locations and stabalize them in his bay, and then in robot mode along with his mobile repair bay, actually go about surgery.

 

Any primary functions should be capable of being performed in robot mode, or you're a pretty ineffective soldier.

True, but an alt mode that enhances those primary functions is still ideal.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Remember that the disguise aspect is about hiding not only from your enemies, but from the natives of an alien planet. And as Transformers perform missions on other planets, their alt. modes would change accordingly.

 

also true which is why Soundwave would likely choose to take on any native device primarily intended for recording and communications, not a large vehicle.

 

We're use to their story keeping them on Earth for a good long time, so we don't second guess this, but as they developed their technology for battle, they certainly didn't rely on coming to Earth. They didn't even know it existed.

Actually, that is wrong. According to Transformers lore as discussed in TF: More than Meets the Eye and the Ultimate Guide to the Transformers, the Autobots and Decepticons did indeed know about Earth for a very long time even before the Ark was launched.

 

 

I mean, what if Soundwave was needed for Decepticon communications on a planet rich in energy, but where the natives were all telepaths, and didn't need any communications technology? A communications device alt. mode wouldn't do him much good then, would it?

 

It's just poor planning to rely on every battlefield having some sort of useful-to-you technology to adapt to your needs, and it's exactly why Soundwave (or any Transformer) would want to equipped with the equipment he needs to do his job in robot mode, so that no matter what he needs to turn into to hide, he's not completely useless to his team. END EDIT

Sure it would, because the Decepticons are not telepaths, though Soundwave does have some close-range telepathic ability. He would likely disguise himself as some sort of portable telepathic amplifier, since even telepathy has a limited range, or some other audio/visual device. A vehicle mode still would not be appropriate. The thing is though, that the outward appearance isn't what is important, so much as the primary function. Soundwave's native alt mode was a communications device, though Cybertronian in design. He was always capable of storing Frenzy, Laserbeak, Rumble, Ravage, and the other "cassettes" inside his chest, even though they would not have looked like Earth cassettes at the time. He always transformed into a communications device devoted to transmitting, recieving, intercepting, decoding and replaying communication. The only thing that changed when he came to Earth was the outward apprearance of that mode. His capabilities in his alt mode didn't.

 

Being being better equipped in alt mode to fulfill your primary function does not mean completely useless to fulfill it in robot mode. IT means just as a I said—Better equipped in his alt mode because he can devote all of his internal systems to that specific function which he cannot do in robot mode. This is true of G1 Megatron, of Perceptor, or Blaster and of Soundwave. It is also better of Octane, Astrotrain, and others.

 

Alt. modes should be about disguise first, mobility (i.e. flying and stuff) second and minor functions (i.e. other weapons, or being able to tow broken down Autobots, etc.) third. It just gets you the most bang for your buck that way (speaking from a Transformer's Point of View).

 

I disagree. Disguise and primary function are the top priorities, not mobility. Mobility is the least priority. Being able to tow broken down Autobots is a primary function of someone devoted to maintenance, hence why Hoist was a tow truck. Being able to carry and stabalize wonded is a primary function of a medic, which is why G1 Ratchet was an ambulance. Being able to examine subjects in the most minute detail, down to the microscopic or even atomic level is of paramount importance for a scientist, hence a microscope alt mode is ideal for Perceptor. Being able to devote all your internal recources to transmitting, receiving, intercepting and decoding communications, and then playing them for others is paramount for a communications officer, hence an innoculous looking alt mode devoted to those functions (i.e. a portable AM/FM tape deck/CD player stereo system) is ideal.

[being able to carry and stabalize wonded is a primary function of a medic, which is why G1 Ratchet was an ambulance.

Did anyone else get this hilarious mental image in their head of a bunch of Autobots trying to shove Optimus Prime or Warpath into the back of Ratchet's van mode?

That's all speculation.

Actually, no, it isn't. Megatron's entry in TF: More than Meets the Ey #3 specifically states that his destructive power is much more concentrated in his alt mode, but his ammunition is more limited.

 

Okay, but when I say speculation, I'm talking about when compared to the rules of the movie universe, since that's what is in discussion. I have no problem with cartoon/comic Soundwave. I love him to death.

 

What we're debating is the need to actually introduce Mass Shifting technology into the movies, and from a story standpoint, there isn't one. That's what needs to be addressed.

 

That's like saying Ratchet should be better equipped to repair Autobots in his ambulance mode.

Actually, he is. More accurately, he can transport wounded to safer locations and stabalize them in his bay, and then in robot mode along with his mobile repair bay, actually go about surgery.

 

No, but see, that's my whole point. His primary function is the actual repair, which has to be done in robot mode. Whether he turns into an ambulance, a tow truck, or a jet plane is inconsequential.

 

Also, in movie world, his ambulance mode couldn't actually transport any wounded Autobots. They'd be too big. I know he's done it before, in comics and cartoons, but the movie operates differently, and you can't fit a robot the size of a GMC Topkick into the back of an H2.

 

Any primary functions should be capable of being performed in robot mode, or you're a pretty ineffective soldier.

True, but an alt mode that enhances those primary functions is still ideal.

 

Agreed. But not necessary. And I've already listed numerous non-mass shifting modes that would do that for Soundwave.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Remember that the disguise aspect is about hiding not only from your enemies, but from the natives of an alien planet. And as Transformers perform missions on other planets, their alt. modes would change accordingly.

also true which is why Soundwave would likely choose to take on any native device primarily intended for recording and communications, not a large vehicle.

 

There's no connection there. The notion that the alt. mode would change depending on where he was hiding is exactly why he wouldn't want to rely on his alt. mode to perform his primary functions. He'd want his robot mode to be self-reliant so he would be free to travel and take on a new disguise without worrying about whether communications equipment was a common sight to see in that area.

 

We're use to their story keeping them on Earth for a good long time, so we don't second guess this, but as they developed their technology for battle, they certainly didn't rely on coming to Earth. They didn't even know it existed.

Actually, that is wrong. According to Transformers lore as discussed in TF: More than Meets the Eye and the Ultimate Guide to the Transformers, the Autobots and Decepticons did indeed know about Earth for a very long time even before the Ark was launched.

 

See my above comment. You keep bringing up comic/cartoon rules when we're discussing mass shifting in the sequel to the movie. Things are going to work differently. Which, honestly, is a point that seems to address the rest of your post.

 

What this is about is whether Mass Shifting is going to do the movie Transformers any good, based on the established needs of that storyline. I say no. I say it's a waste of their time, and provides them no advantage they don't already possess in the movie world.

 

In order to prove me wrong, you have to make arguments based on why it's important to these specific characters in this specific story to gain this technology. If you're just going to continue bringing up the past comic/cartoons, then this discussion needs to stop, because you're talking about something else.

 

Essentially, my point is similar to this: I'm saying Spider-Man 3 doesn't need to introduce Web Shooter technology, cause he can already accomplish everything web shooters give him without them, and you're telling me he should have web shooters because that's what the Spidey in the 80s used, and the technology for them was just too much to fit into the first 2 movies.

 

What you need to do now is tell me why in the world Web Shooters would benefit Spidey in the 3rd movie. And citing an out-of-date Marvel Handbook isn't going to accomplish that task for you.

I love G1 Megatron and Soundwave. THe cassetts, great toys. Size changes in a cartoon: NO big deal. But as the line has evolved and as it moves into a more mainstream light where ite will need to maintain the disbelif of a larger number of uninvolved people to succeeed, Mini modes in a story about giant robots is just...

 

Dumb.

 

Even if they explaind "Mass shifitng" 5 times only the dorks would understand anyway. The rest of the audience would just say "That movie made no sense." Come on, didn't everyone go to film school?