The reason for size or mass shifting, from a story perspective, is that it allows larger bots, like Soundwave and Perceptor, take on modes which are better suited to their individual functions as well as hide in plain sight because those modes are also very innocuous.

 

I don't think you really take into consideration that they're robots. If Perceptor needs to look at something microscopic, his robotic eyes can do that. If Soundwave needs to send or receive a message over great distances, his robotic ears can do that. Suggesting that advanced living alien robots need to turn into mundane hand held Earth objects to accomplish these functions is ridiculous.

 

A small bot is well suited for espionage, which is apparently Frenzy's function in the movie now, but would not be suited for an upper eschelon officer like Soundwave because power is a key factor in Decepticon ranks, and a small bot would not be that powerful.

 

But why are we sending an upper echelon officer to do a minion's work? If Soundwave's size is dictated by his rank, then it negates his need to really turn into something tiny for spying. I mean, you rarely see M in the field with Bond. He's either too important to send on an information gathering task, or he's got to be big and strong to justify his rank.

 

Also, if I were an upper echelon officer, I certainly wouldn't want to limit my mobility in alt. mode. If you can't move out of a tight spot without calling attention to yourself, you're not much of a spy.

 

A mode like a stereo system is better suited for recieving transmissions and radio waves, as well as relaying that information to the commander. Sure, a communications vehicle could pick up the signals, but how would Megatron recieve the messages or hear the transmissions?

 

Because he's a robot! You know those little flip up screens on MP Prime's arms? Those are for communication. He sends and receives transmissions. The Transformers don't need a tape player to perform such basic functions. Real tape players don't even perform the functions Soundwave does. So, it's pointless to argue that he needs to be a tape player to do those things.

 

But, hell, look at what cars carry around inside of them now, CD players, HD radio, MP3 players, Satellite Radio, DVD Players...if you absolutely insist that advanced robots from another planet need Earth technology, even when they use the technology for things it doesn't do, what's wrong with all that stuff being in Soundwave's alt. mode?

 

From my own experience in the Army as a communications specialist, someone needs to man a communications van and then deliver the messages. With an alt mode that is a radio, the other Decepticons could hear the transmissions directly as Soundwave recieves them, or he can play them back later. Therefore, given his position in the Decepticon heirarchy, as well as his function as Communications Officer, the ability to mass shift into a small communications devce, like a stereo system or computer, is pretty essential. An alt mode like a microscope is better suited for scientific studies and examining various subjects. and, in both cases, having over-sized versions of those types of objects would be even more ridiculous than the ability to shrink down to the proper size for such an object.

 

They.

 

Are.

 

Robots.

 

From another planet! Our technology means nothing to them, and they transform for primarily one reason - to hide.

 

They don't need to transform to perform those functions. That's just more kiddie cartoon logic. How do you think Perceptor looked at microscopic stuff on Cybertron before he became an Earth microscope? Did he transform into a Cybertronian microscope? And, if there even are Cybertronian microscopes, then why did whoever invent that magnification process decide to make it a device outside of their own robotic eyes, and not an addition to them?

 

And, let's not forget that on Cybertron Soundwave transformed into a lamp post. Could he not send and receive transmissions on Cybertron, or do lamp posts on Cybertron perform those functions?

 

 

There you have a reason, and a pseudo-scientific method for mass shifting.

 

I'm still waiting on a good reason. Like I said in the first post, it has got to be vital to the characters that this mass shifting occur. But everything you've stated so far has a simpler solution in the fact that we're dealing with advanced technological beings in the first place. I mean, you really want to waste the audience's time with all this techno-babble so that a robot can send and receive radio transmissions? After a huge part of this first film is

how Bumblebee makes constant use of his car radio

? Doesn't that seem a tad redundant?

 

Sorry, bad storytelling. Make it vital or don't use it.

 

Yes, they are robots. so what! Each group are a special ops team for their respective sides. And, yes, they do need to transform to better utilize their specific functions. Remember, when they transform, they take on all of the characteristics of that mode. They also lose most of them in their other mode. Sure, they all have short-range communications even in robot mode, but in Alt mode, Soundwave has greater reception and transmission capabilities, as well as ability to better analyze the communications he receives. An alt mode that is a devoted communications device, such as a radio, or stereo system would greatly enhance his function as a Communications officer. If you notice, in the shows, both Soundwave and Blaster always transformed into their alt modes when receiving or transmitting communications, anylizing such transmissions, or when replaying their cassettes. They couldn't act as effective communications relays without being in their alt modes. With Perceptor, it was his microscope lenses that had the magnification properties of an optical or Electron microscope, not his optics. Therefore, it greatly enhanced his function as a scientist. You notice that every time he needed to analize something, he transfomed into his alt mode. As for Bumblebee,

having to use his radio, that is because that is his only way to communicate, since his vocal processors were destroyed.

, so, no, it isn't redundant. The simple reason why mass shifitng isn't beong included in the first movie, and why Soundwave was moved to the sequels (if any) was because there was too much to explain already for it too be included. You can only expect an audience to accept so much in one sitting. IF you throw in too many fantasitc elements at once, suspension of disbelief can break down. By saving Soundwave, and mass shifting for a sequel, they will then have the time to properly address it without compromising suspension of disbelief. As far as any story goes, there is no such thing as a stupid idea, just poor execution. Mass conversion, (and other size changing abilities) isn't a stupid idea. How it is executed and explained is what makes it work or not. and, no, On Cybertron, Soundwave didn't turn into a "lamp post". That was a communications relay, not a lamp post. Also, espionage, and analysis of intelligence data is not minion's work. It takes specialized training.

Yes, they are robots. so what! Each group are a special ops team for their respective sides. And, yes, they do need to transform to better utilize their specific functions. Remember, when they transform, they take on all of the characteristics of that mode. They also lose most of them in their other mode. Sure, they all have short-range communications even in robot mode, but in Alt mode, Soundwave has greater reception and transmission capabilities, as well as ability to better analyze the communications he receives. An alt mode that is a devoted communications device, such as a radio, or stereo system would greatly enhance his function as a Communications officer. If you notice, in the shows, both Soundwave and Blaster always transformed into their alt modes when receiving or transmitting communications, anylizing such transmissions, or when replaying their cassettes. They couldn't act as effective communications relays without being in their alt modes. With Perceptor, it was his microscope lenses that had the magnification properties of an optical or Electron microscope, not his optics. Therefore, it greatly enhanced his function as a scientist. You notice that every time he needed to analize something, he transfomed into his alt mode. As for Bumblebee,

having to use his radio, that is because that is his only way to communicate, since his vocal processors were destroyed.

, so, no, it isn't redundant. The simple reason why mass shifitng isn't beong included in the first movie, and why Soundwave was moved to the sequels (if any) was because there was too much to explain already for it too be included. You can only expect an audience to accept so much in one sitting. IF you throw in too many fantasitc elements at once, suspension of disbelief can break down. By saving Soundwave, and mass shifting for a sequel, they will then have the time to properly address it without compromising suspension of disbelief. As far as any story goes, there is no such thing as a stupid idea, just poor execution. Mass conversion, (and other size changing abilities) isn't a stupid idea. How it is executed and explained is what makes it work or not. and, no, On Cybertron, Soundwave didn't turn into a "lamp post". That was a communications relay, not a lamp post. Also, espionage, and analysis of intelligence data is not minion's work. It takes specialized training.

 

Sorry, still not good enough.

 

I mean, because Soundwave's arms, legs, and head fold into his torso and he shrinks to 100th of his size, he gets better reception or something? That doesn't make any sense at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no engineer, but don't antennas get better range the larger they get?

 

And don't quote me how they did things in the cartoon. We're talking about the movie universe. Much as I love the old cartoon, it was a toy commercial. If Perceptor didn't transform to analyze things, he'd never have a reason to transform, and it makes it hard to sell a transforming toy to kids when they don't see him transform on screen. But, even beyond the toy selling, you keep saying, "you'll notice X transformed to perform Y". And what I'm looking for here is the reason "Y" couldn't be performed in robot mode. And you have yet to provide that reason. You just say it can't and leave it at that.

 

The fact is that it's inefficient to not make Soundwave capable of sending and receiving those all important transmissions in his robot mode. You could literally install all of the technology of several modern day stereos in the palm of the hand of a robot as big as Soundwave. So, why even worry about him turning into one? I mean, if all the characteristics of a stereo are that important, isn't that just easier for the Decepticons? Wouldn't that get the job done?

 

See, here's my problem with Mass Shifting. Before you even touch on how the robot shirinks/grows you have to establish why he would want to. And "because he did in the cartoon" isn't a reason. The only way to come up with that reason is to establish that there's not an easier or more efficient way to get the job done.

 

And inventing technology to shrink and grow doesn't seem like the easiest way to get anything done.

Yes, they are robots. so what! Each group are a special ops team for their respective sides. And, yes, they do need to transform to better utilize their specific functions. Remember, when they transform, they take on all of the characteristics of that mode. They also lose most of them in their other mode. Sure, they all have short-range communications even in robot mode, but in Alt mode, Soundwave has greater reception and transmission capabilities, as well as ability to better analyze the communications he receives. An alt mode that is a devoted communications device, such as a radio, or stereo system would greatly enhance his function as a Communications officer. If you notice, in the shows, both Soundwave and Blaster always transformed into their alt modes when receiving or transmitting communications, anylizing such transmissions, or when replaying their cassettes. They couldn't act as effective communications relays without being in their alt modes. With Perceptor, it was his microscope lenses that had the magnification properties of an optical or Electron microscope, not his optics. Therefore, it greatly enhanced his function as a scientist. You notice that every time he needed to analize something, he transfomed into his alt mode. As for Bumblebee,

having to use his radio, that is because that is his only way to communicate, since his vocal processors were destroyed.

, so, no, it isn't redundant. The simple reason why mass shifitng isn't beong included in the first movie, and why Soundwave was moved to the sequels (if any) was because there was too much to explain already for it too be included. You can only expect an audience to accept so much in one sitting. IF you throw in too many fantasitc elements at once, suspension of disbelief can break down. By saving Soundwave, and mass shifting for a sequel, they will then have the time to properly address it without compromising suspension of disbelief. As far as any story goes, there is no such thing as a stupid idea, just poor execution. Mass conversion, (and other size changing abilities) isn't a stupid idea. How it is executed and explained is what makes it work or not. and, no, On Cybertron, Soundwave didn't turn into a "lamp post". That was a communications relay, not a lamp post. Also, espionage, and analysis of intelligence data is not minion's work. It takes specialized training.

 

Sorry, still not good enough.

 

I mean, because Soundwave's arms, legs, and head fold into his torso and he shrinks to 100th of his size, he gets better reception or something? That doesn't make any sense at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no engineer, but don't antennas get better range the larger they get?

 

And don't quote me how they did things in the cartoon. We're talking about the movie universe. Much as I love the old cartoon, it was a toy commercial. If Perceptor didn't transform to analyze things, he'd never have a reason to transform, and it makes it hard to sell a transforming toy to kids when they don't see him transform on screen. But, even beyond the toy selling, you keep saying, "you'll notice X transformed to perform Y". And what I'm looking for here is the reason "Y" couldn't be performed in robot mode. And you have yet to provide that reason. You just say it can't and leave it at that.

 

The fact is that it's inefficient to not make Soundwave capable of sending and receiving those all important transmissions in his robot mode. You could literally install all of the technology of several modern day stereos in the palm of the hand of a robot as big as Soundwave. So, why even worry about him turning into one? I mean, if all the characteristics of a stereo are that important, isn't that just easier for the Decepticons? Wouldn't that get the job done?

 

See, here's my problem with Mass Shifting. Before you even touch on how the robot shirinks/grows you have to establish why he would want to. And "because he did in the cartoon" isn't a reason. The only way to come up with that reason is to establish that there's not an easier or more efficient way to get the job done.

 

And inventing technology to shrink and grow doesn't seem like the easiest way to get anything done.

Remember, it isn't just their exteriors that change. It is the internal components that change as well. When Soundwave and Blaster each transformed into their alt modes, their internal components became that of a dedicated communications device, they didn't just appear to be one, they were one. While a large antenna does indeed boost reception and transmission, you still need dedicated equipment to recieve and transmit. When Soundwave transfomed, he became such a piece of equipment. In robot mode, he does not have that dedicated communications capability, neither does Blaster, that is why, in the context of the story, they transform when they need to do their jobs. The same is true of Perceptor. His alt mode is a dedicated piece of equipment designed to analize samples, something his robot mode is not. Therefore, no, it is not innefficient for him not to have those capabilities in robot mode because, in robot mode, much of those internal components are being used to make up his limbs and other functions, and cannot be devoted to acting as a communications system. That is why his transformation into a dedicated communications device, such as a radio, or stereo, is appropriate. Also, a modern day small stereo is really only good for short range reception. If he incorporated the same size radio in his body, he would still not be able to serve as a dedicated communications specialist. Soundwave's job is to act as a main communications hub, relaying communications between Megatron and his troops, as well as intecepting and analizing Autobot communications. That job requires an alt mode which is dedicated to communications. In other words, some form of radio device, not a vehicle. That means that size shifitng is necessary. Another reason for why is so that alt mode can better blend in. A gigantic radio would stick out like a sore thumb, and a small robot mode would not garner any respect. It would also be a severe hinderance in combat.

Remember, it isn't just their exteriors that change. It is the internal components that change as well. When Soundwave and Blaster each transformed into their alt modes, their internal components became that of a dedicated communications device, they didn't just appear to be one, they were one. While a large antenna does indeed boost reception and transmission, you still need dedicated equipment to recieve and transmit. When Soundwave transfomed, he became such a piece of equipment. In robot mode, he does not have that dedicated communications capability, neither does Blaster, that is why, in the context of the story, they transform when they need to do their jobs. The same is true of Perceptor. His alt mode is a dedicated piece of equipment designed to analize samples, something his robot mode is not. Therefore, no, it is not innefficient for him not to have those capabilities in robot mode because, in robot mode, much of those internal components are being used to make up his limbs and other functions, and cannot be devoted to acting as a communications system. That is why his transformation into a dedicated communications device, such as a radio, or stereo, is appropriate. Also, a modern day small stereo is really only good for short range reception. If he incorporated the same size radio in his body, he would still not be able to serve as a dedicated communications specialist. Soundwave's job is to act as a main communications hub, relaying communications between Megatron and his troops, as well as intecepting and analizing Autobot communications. That job requires an alt mode which is dedicated to communications. In other words, some form of radio device, not a vehicle. That means that size shifitng is necessary. Another reason for why is so that alt mode can better blend in. A gigantic radio would stick out like a sore thumb, and a small robot mode would not garner any respect. It would also be a severe hinderance in combat.

 

So, your argument is: if he turns into one, it serves his purpose, but if he just has the exact same thing he would otherwise turn into installed inside him instead (since it's teeny-tiny and wouldn't take up much space), it's somehow suddenly useless?

 

:tfwtf Am I being Punk'd?

I have to agree wtih Tramp here: Remember all those episodes with Grimlock beating becoming the smartest person ever, and cooking birthday cakes and flying starships? Well you may recall that he did all of that in his ALT mode.

 

Clearly a Mechanical T-Rex is better suited to baking a cake than a humanoid could EVER be!

I don't think you really take into consideration that they're robots. If Perceptor needs to look at something microscopic, his robotic eyes can do that. If Soundwave needs to send or receive a message over great distances, his robotic ears can do that. Suggesting that advanced living alien robots need to turn into mundane hand held Earth objects to accomplish these functions is ridiculous.

The tf's may have robotic bodies but in practically every series, their minds are very similar to that of regular humans. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a tf display a level of intelligence above that of a normal human. Sure, their technology may be more advanced but it still runs on the same basic principles as Earth tech. It's possible that tf's do not understand how to fully utilize their robotic bodies due to their more "organic" thought processes.

 

Well, considering that I am a human, and I was the one who suggesting making full use of their robotic vision and stuff, they only have to be as smart as me to figure it out. Which, believe me, can't be too hard.

 

Thus, your point is negated.

So you've mastered telepathy & levitation now then?

:wtf

I'm saying that you may have mastered basic human functions but not the real hardcore stuff. The TFs could be the same.

 

A bit far-fetched I know..... but we are talking about alien robots here. :tftongue

I don't think you really take into consideration that they're robots. If Perceptor needs to look at something microscopic, his robotic eyes can do that. If Soundwave needs to send or receive a message over great distances, his robotic ears can do that. Suggesting that advanced living alien robots need to turn into mundane hand held Earth objects to accomplish these functions is ridiculous.

The tf's may have robotic bodies but in practically every series, their minds are very similar to that of regular humans. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a tf display a level of intelligence above that of a normal human. Sure, their technology may be more advanced but it still runs on the same basic principles as Earth tech. It's possible that tf's do not understand how to fully utilize their robotic bodies due to their more "organic" thought processes.

 

Well, considering that I am a human, and I was the one who suggesting making full use of their robotic vision and stuff, they only have to be as smart as me to figure it out. Which, believe me, can't be too hard.

 

Thus, your point is negated.

So you've mastered telepathy & levitation now then?

:wtf

I'm saying that you may have mastered basic human functions but not the real hardcore stuff. The TFs could be the same.

 

A bit far-fetched I know..... but we are talking about alien robots here. :tftongue

 

Okay...but the stuff we're talking about - sending and receiving radio transmissions or viewing microscopic things - is all stuff the Transformers have the technology for anyway. They don't need to elevate themselves to a higher plain of thought, they just need someone to have an "I got chocolate in my peanut butter" moment to realize that they could put that technology inside themselves and be more efficient.

 

Obviously there are things that they would require technology outside themselves for, or they would have some technology that would be too cumbersome to integrate with themselves, but this discussion is as it relates to mass shifting, so anything that they would transform into by shrinking, shouldn't need shrinking, it should just be installed inside of them, laving the Alt. Mode for other tasks.

 

See, if a communications device that can be picked up by a human is so essential to the Decepticon cause, Soundwave could have that communications device installed inside of him, and then transform into something more useful, some kind of stealth plane loaded with weapons, perhaps. He would just be a more effective warrior that way. Maybe his name "Soundwave" wouldn't fit as well at that point, but can anyone seriously argue that being referred to by a specific human word like "Soundwave" would be Soundwave's top priority?

I don't think you really take into consideration that they're robots. If Perceptor needs to look at something microscopic, his robotic eyes can do that. If Soundwave needs to send or receive a message over great distances, his robotic ears can do that. Suggesting that advanced living alien robots need to turn into mundane hand held Earth objects to accomplish these functions is ridiculous.

The tf's may have robotic bodies but in practically every series, their minds are very similar to that of regular humans. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a tf display a level of intelligence above that of a normal human. Sure, their technology may be more advanced but it still runs on the same basic principles as Earth tech. It's possible that tf's do not understand how to fully utilize their robotic bodies due to their more "organic" thought processes.

 

Well, considering that I am a human, and I was the one who suggesting making full use of their robotic vision and stuff, they only have to be as smart as me to figure it out. Which, believe me, can't be too hard.

 

Thus, your point is negated.

So you've mastered telepathy & levitation now then?

:wtf

I'm saying that you may have mastered basic human functions but not the real hardcore stuff. The TFs could be the same.

 

A bit far-fetched I know..... but we are talking about alien robots here. :tftongue

 

Okay...but the stuff we're talking about - sending and receiving radio transmissions or viewing microscopic things - is all stuff the Transformers have the technology for anyway. They don't need to elevate themselves to a higher plain of thought, they just need someone to have an "I got chocolate in my peanut butter" moment to realize that they could put that technology inside themselves and be more efficient.

 

Obviously there are things that they would require technology outside themselves for, or they would have some technology that would be too cumbersome to integrate with themselves, but this discussion is as it relates to mass shifting, so anything that they would transform into by shrinking, shouldn't need shrinking, it should just be installed inside of them, laving the Alt. Mode for other tasks.

 

See, if a communications device that can be picked up by a human is so essential to the Decepticon cause, Soundwave could have that communications device installed inside of him, and then transform into something more useful, some kind of stealth plane loaded with weapons, perhaps. He would just be a more effective warrior that way. Maybe his name "Soundwave" wouldn't fit as well at that point, but can anyone seriously argue that being referred to by a specific human word like "Soundwave" would be Soundwave's top priority?

[citation needed]

[citation needed]

 

Sorry, but again I gotta toss you the: :wtf

Personally I've always hated mass-shifting and found it wholly inappropriate for the very reasons Hobbes has stated--they're robots. Why do they need to transform into something that should already be incorporated into their very being? The concept of a "Decepticon Communicator" seems pretty pointless to me, when giant mega-tech robots would likely already incorporate all the communications equipment they need into their own heads. I've always figured TFs should be more like the Borg in many ways, able to directly link themselves together over a form of Wi-Fi for close-range communication and use less sophisticated radio transmissions for longer range. Sometimes perhaps they would need to make direct physical contact for secured communications or transmission of sensitive data.

 

Soundwave has no need to mass-shift. Hell, as I recall he used his minions more for the actual spy work and spent more of his own time analyzing their findings and reporting his analysis to Megatron. In that way he's more of an intelligence coordinator/analyst than an actual spy himself. No need for him to change into a tape recorder for that. The only reason he ever did so was to make 7-year-old kids go "Wow, he's a tape recorder!" and bug their moms to buy it. Even as a kid I figured that out.

 

In the new, more sophisticated world of TFs and photo-realistic movie characters, Blackout makes a great proxy Soundwave. If you must have someone named Soundwave, and you want him to be the spy-master with all his minions, make him a U.S. Postal Service mail truck or UPS truck, and have his hench-bots change into packages and a holo-disguised driver. Or maybe a car from the gas/electric/water company with Rumble disguised as a meter reader. The less conspicuous the form, the greater the likelihood of success.