The Bond Gadget Test

[Tramp]

So, your argument is: if he turns into one, it serves his purpose, but if he just has the exact same thing he would otherwise turn into installed inside him instead (since it's teeny-tiny and wouldn't take up much space), it's somehow suddenly useless?

 

:tfwtf Am I being Punk'd?

No. What I am saying is that by transforming into a dedicated communications device, he can function ten times better at his specialty. By becoming a tape deck, he can actually record data much easier, and play it back. By being a communications device he can play thise communications for others to hear, something he can't do in robot mode. Rember every time Laserbeak came back from a scouting mission? Every time Megatron told Soundwave to play back what Laserbeak found, Soundwave had to transform in order to do so because all of the intenral components necessary to function in that capacity were otherwise devoted to other functions in robot mode. Sure, he could store the cassettes in him while in robot mode, but not play them. Sure, he could recieve some signials in robot mode, but could not decode them, boost weak signals, nor let others hear them. All that could only be done when in his alt mode. High-end communications equipment is not teeny-tiny. Most military grade hardware can fill up a van when you add in the encryption/decryption equoipment, the amplifiers, the radios and recording equipment. When Soundwave transforms, he becomes all that in one package. However, in robot mode, much of that capability is lost doe to the components being devoted to other functions.

 

The simple truth is that no matter what reasons people give you, no matter how logical or well thought out, you will never accept mass conversion or size changing. There is nothing wrong with mass conversion. Is it fantastic or unrealistic? Sure it is. That doesn't make it a stupid idea. The trick is to make people believe it possible. In otherwords, make the fantastic believable. Transfomers have the ability to transform in order to disguise themselves as well as better perform their specific functions. Parts compression and mass conversion allow transformers to take on modes significantly smaller or larger than they otherwise would be able to take on, and thus better do their jobs and disguise themselves. That is a very useful ability, though rare. There is nothing stupid about it. If it were, there wouldn't be so many superheroes with the ability to change size.

[Grand Galactic Inquisitor]

no matter how logical or well thought out, you will never accept mass conversion or size changing. Is it fantastic or unrealistic? Sure it is.

 

 

You do realize, those two statements contradict each other? Logic and fantasy are diametrically opposed. I'm just sayin'.

 

And what it really comes down to is, why make up some grandiose, point-by-point presentation about "why they have to mass shift" when there's simple, efficient, realistic ideas that make the very concept obsolete?

[JustLOKIPLVY]

yanno, i still can't figure out why anybody gives a flying Powerglide. so some robots mass shift, some don't, big deal.

 

even in current transformers cartoons mass shifting happens (minicons and their alt modes). so really, why does it matter? it's a bit rediculous to claim your movie will be more in touch with reality, ect... when it's a movie about Powerglideing huge robots from outerspace. also, if frenzy is what we get for espionage, i'd much rather have mass shifting as frenzy looks RETARDED.

 

mass shifting or not the movie should be great. as for sequels... well i dunno. it'd have deffinatly pissed me off if they didn't change it from kenny-wave to frenzy, as for blackout well, i can see that as being ok for soundwave. blackout is very much espionage and stealth orientated, and thats all i care about, so long as he remains espionage and stealth orientated. when they announced that soundwave was going to be a heli, everybody went bat-Blot because you don't expect a heli to be stealthy. i also remember battle heli being thrown around which is DEFFINATLY not stealthy.

 

Wanted to go further into the thread before posting but unfortunately couldn't ignore this.

 

Armada may have had some mass shifting with characters like Sidewas etc but not the minicons. The minicons transformed into tiny vehicles opposed to full sized ones. (Remebers Jolt in helicopter mode playing tag with Carlos but not being much larger than an RC toy) Cybertron however did involve mass shifting & I personally hated how these three minicons could transform into full sized drivable vehicles but in bot mode be concealed in a walk in closet. Mass shifting was ghey in the 80s & as with Cybertron ghey now. It fits the premis of a cartoon fine but if I had to ask myself how the hell something like this would work in a real life movie setting that in itself is trying to take itself seriously it would detract greatly from the overall expirence.

 

The thing about cartoons one has to understand is that they're for children not 25+ adults who the movie is targeted for. Sure kids will probably see it like all other PG-13 fare but if it wasn't being aimed at the older audiences as well as the young Spielberg/Bay would have just singled it out as a G rated family film & made it accordingly. Anyway Kids don't normally care as to why mass shifting/subspace works or doesn't work as long a Blots being blown up why should they care. Adults however are a lot harder to impress & will question the reality of the ideas in the world presented a lot sooner than any child. DW did there best to retcon the hell out of the whole mass shifting explanation & make it sound so scientifically plausible that people bought it as canon & expected the same from the movie but were ultimately disappointed when it wasn't because this meant Soundwave couldn't be a tape cassette player or Megatron couldn't be a gun or whatever the case.

 

My thoughts. The people behind the movie saw through all the scientific bullBlot & decided to do a movie that was simple & didn't require a viewer to suspend there disbelief beyond alien robots who come from space & have the ability to realistically tranform into vehicles as disguises. Once a viewer can get around that without being forced upon them concepts as inane as mass shifting on a molecular scale or subspace for weapons/trailer & such it's all much easier to accept.

 

Alt modes with purpose. Clearly Bay has gone out of his way6 to provide a roster of vehicular alt modes that will no doubt deliver the most bang for the viewers dollar. 80s nostalga doesn't exactly deliver the same punch as it did in the 80s. Bumblebee is a prime example. Volkswagon Beatle vs a Camaro for fast chase sequence. Almost seems comon sense now. Soundwave/Blackout as a helicopter as opposed to a tapedeck. A tape deck just sits there & records/infiltrates & is utterly useless until it becomes a building sized robot. A helicopter on the other hand is probably fast & definitely lethal in both modes. I personally would have loved to Blackout as Soundwave but unfortunately that was scrapped because of the fan outcry. Megatron as a cyberjet opposed a handgun. I personally wanted him a tank but the cyber jet seems to make sense. This way he can like fly around & cause utter devastation opposed to having Blackout or Starscream just hold him & shoot stuff. Also this movie would look really stupid if he transformed into a handgun of equal scale one time & a persons hand the next. In comics/cartoons sure but this again is a movie.

 

Subspace. Off topic sure but considering this all started with Mass shifting & other poorly explained TF scientific lore I figured it's just as relevent. Trailer/guns that magically disappear/reapear from this unexplained relm known as subspace also pretty ghey. Sure it could be some advanced/unexplained form of alien technology in the film but people would probably just see it as an excuse to give the characters bigger guns & such as well as keep Primes trailer out of the shot after he transformers & wages battle. Sure the 80s fanboys will get it & not question it but the majority of people wold be WTF? & chalk it up to bad story telling thus again detracting from the overall film. Can't say how relieved I am Prime doesn't have a trailer anywhere in the film. it served a purpose in G1 but seeing as he has no need for one in the movie & he's mostly chasing Decepticons a trailer would ony hinder him as well as make directing more difficult. Bay off screen "& action,......CUT!!!! STP JACKKNIFING THE TRAILER!!!! GOD DAMMIT!!!!" :tflaugh

[Hobbes-timus Prime]

So, your argument is: if he turns into one, it serves his purpose, but if he just has the exact same thing he would otherwise turn into installed inside him instead (since it's teeny-tiny and wouldn't take up much space), it's somehow suddenly useless?

 

:tfwtf Am I being Punk'd?

No. What I am saying is that by transforming into a dedicated communications device, he can function ten times better at his specialty. By becoming a tape deck, he can actually record data much easier, and play it back. By being a communications device he can play thise communications for others to hear, something he can't do in robot mode. Rember every time Laserbeak came back from a scouting mission? Every time Megatron told Soundwave to play back what Laserbeak found, Soundwave had to transform in order to do so because all of the intenral components necessary to function in that capacity were otherwise devoted to other functions in robot mode. Sure, he could store the cassettes in him while in robot mode, but not play them. Sure, he could recieve some signials in robot mode, but could not decode them, boost weak signals, nor let others hear them. All that could only be done when in his alt mode. High-end communications equipment is not teeny-tiny. Most military grade hardware can fill up a van when you add in the encryption/decryption equoipment, the amplifiers, the radios and recording equipment. When Soundwave transforms, he becomes all that in one package. However, in robot mode, much of that capability is lost doe to the components being devoted to other functions.

 

The simple truth is that no matter what reasons people give you, no matter how logical or well thought out, you will never accept mass conversion or size changing. There is nothing wrong with mass conversion. Is it fantastic or unrealistic? Sure it is. That doesn't make it a stupid idea. The trick is to make people believe it possible. In otherwords, make the fantastic believable. Transfomers have the ability to transform in order to disguise themselves as well as better perform their specific functions. Parts compression and mass conversion allow transformers to take on modes significantly smaller or larger than they otherwise would be able to take on, and thus better do their jobs and disguise themselves. That is a very useful ability, though rare. There is nothing stupid about it. If it were, there wouldn't be so many superheroes with the ability to change size.

 

I am about to tear my hair out, Tramp. You say that when Soundwave transforms he becomes all that in one package. But that package is small enough for a human to lift and carry, and put in his locker. It's a teeny-tiny package. So...why not take that tiny package that has all these special functions, and instead of bending the laws of physics to turn into it, just install it inside the giant robot!? Hell, even if that equipment has to fill a van, Soundwave could easily be bigger than a van and carry it all. Then he'd be ten times better at his specialty no matter which mode he was in. How does that not accomplish what the Decepticons need!? Why won't that work?

 

Hell, even if they went through all the trouble to create mass shifting, wouldn't be easier, and require less resources, to just mass shift the equipment that fills a van and make it tiny enough to install inside Soundwave? What makes mass shifting during transformation the easiest, most effective use of that technology?

 

All anyone on your side of this discussion needs to do is answer that question, and I'm sold.

 

But you haven't answered that question. You just keep telling me what happened in the cartoon. I know what happened in the cartoon, I own the entire cartoon on DVD, I love the cartoon, but we are not, repeat NOT, talking about the cartoon. We are talking about the movies. And the rules are different.

 

We need a new scenario to justify mass shifting. A real reason why it would be useful to them. Because the way storytelling works is, if our bad guys are inventing and using technology in a way that the audience can see isn't an efficient use of that technology, they're no longer threatening. They're dumb, and the audience can see the flaws in their plans, and clearly they'll fail. And if they ever look like they're going to win, it makes the heroes less heroic. It's like a chain reaction that ends up making everyone on screen look less impressive than they should, and making the story unsatisfying.

 

Sure, the truth is, I don't believe a reasonable Mass Shifting scenario exists. And, what I'm hoping will happen is that if anyone who is really behind mass shifting examines it, they'll come over to my side.

 

But, if I'm wrong, and someone can produce for me the scenario in which Mass Shifting is a vital, effective and dangerous technology in the hands of the Decepticons, I'll change my tune faster than Gwen Stefani went from Ska to Hip-hop.

[PlumperHumper]

No. What I am saying is that by transforming into a dedicated communications device, he can function ten times better at his specialty. By becoming a tape deck, he can actually record data much easier, and play it back. By being a communications device he can play thise communications for others to hear, something he can't do in robot mode. Rember every time Laserbeak came back from a scouting mission? Every time Megatron told Soundwave to play back what Laserbeak found, Soundwave had to transform in order to do so because all of the intenral components necessary to function in that capacity were otherwise devoted to other functions in robot mode. Sure, he could store the cassettes in him while in robot mode, but not play them. Sure, he could recieve some signials in robot mode, but could not decode them, boost weak signals, nor let others hear them.

Actually you're wrong here - In Transport to Oblivion Soundwave never transformed into tape player mode to play back Laserbeak. Several times in Season One of G1 Cartoon Soundwave never had to transform to playback Laserbeak's "findings". He obviously did transform a few times to play stuff back - but some of those times were special cases, such as connecting to the Video Screen to playback Laserbeak's info in TFTM. Which personally always bugged me, cause the connection port was just on his leg, he could have just plug himself up in robot mode, but that's one of those "have to transform to help sell toys" moments.

 

Also...

The Problem here is that all the examples you are giving of WHY/HOW/WHAT that you think would work in the TF Live-Action Movies may work, but all of this Mass-Shiftign is unnecessary. Totally and Completely. Because, Soundwave could just build in a technical & large communcations system through his entire body, allowing him to do all of his functions without even being limited to a certain alt. mode at all. If he had this alien communica-system within his body's frame, then he could just choose an alt. mode for mobility or weapons. Officially there is no reason for Soundwave to be a stereo and shrink down a ridiculous amount. If it was just for his function - his body could support it alone - he IS an Alien Robot. Why not be as efficient as possible, without limiting yourself to a specific type of alt. mode that requires unnecessary energy expendature?

[Tramp]

So, your argument is: if he turns into one, it serves his purpose, but if he just has the exact same thing he would otherwise turn into installed inside him instead (since it's teeny-tiny and wouldn't take up much space), it's somehow suddenly useless?

 

:tfwtf Am I being Punk'd?

No. What I am saying is that by transforming into a dedicated communications device, he can function ten times better at his specialty. By becoming a tape deck, he can actually record data much easier, and play it back. By being a communications device he can play thise communications for others to hear, something he can't do in robot mode. Rember every time Laserbeak came back from a scouting mission? Every time Megatron told Soundwave to play back what Laserbeak found, Soundwave had to transform in order to do so because all of the intenral components necessary to function in that capacity were otherwise devoted to other functions in robot mode. Sure, he could store the cassettes in him while in robot mode, but not play them. Sure, he could recieve some signials in robot mode, but could not decode them, boost weak signals, nor let others hear them. All that could only be done when in his alt mode. High-end communications equipment is not teeny-tiny. Most military grade hardware can fill up a van when you add in the encryption/decryption equoipment, the amplifiers, the radios and recording equipment. When Soundwave transforms, he becomes all that in one package. However, in robot mode, much of that capability is lost doe to the components being devoted to other functions.

 

The simple truth is that no matter what reasons people give you, no matter how logical or well thought out, you will never accept mass conversion or size changing. There is nothing wrong with mass conversion. Is it fantastic or unrealistic? Sure it is. That doesn't make it a stupid idea. The trick is to make people believe it possible. In otherwords, make the fantastic believable. Transfomers have the ability to transform in order to disguise themselves as well as better perform their specific functions. Parts compression and mass conversion allow transformers to take on modes significantly smaller or larger than they otherwise would be able to take on, and thus better do their jobs and disguise themselves. That is a very useful ability, though rare. There is nothing stupid about it. If it were, there wouldn't be so many superheroes with the ability to change size.

 

I am about to tear my hair out, Tramp. You say that when Soundwave transforms he becomes all that in one package. But that package is small enough for a human to lift and carry, and put in his locker. It's a teeny-tiny package. So...why not take that tiny package that has all these special functions, and instead of bending the laws of physics to turn into it, just install it inside the giant robot!? Hell, even if that equipment has to fill a van, Soundwave could easily be bigger than a van and carry it all. Then he'd be ten times better at his specialty no matter which mode he was in. How does that not accomplish what the Decepticons need!? Why won't that work?

 

Hell, even if they went through all the trouble to create mass shifting, wouldn't be easier, and require less resources, to just mass shift the equipment that fills a van and make it tiny enough to install inside Soundwave? What makes mass shifting during transformation the easiest, most effective use of that technology?

 

All anyone on your side of this discussion needs to do is answer that question, and I'm sold.

 

But you haven't answered that question. You just keep telling me what happened in the cartoon. I know what happened in the cartoon, I own the entire cartoon on DVD, I love the cartoon, but we are not, repeat NOT, talking about the cartoon. We are talking about the movies. And the rules are different.

 

We need a new scenario to justify mass shifting. A real reason why it would be useful to them. Because the way storytelling works is, if our bad guys are inventing and using technology in a way that the audience can see isn't an efficient use of that technology, they're no longer threatening. They're dumb, and the audience can see the flaws in their plans, and clearly they'll fail. And if they ever look like they're going to win, it makes the heroes less heroic. It's like a chain reaction that ends up making everyone on screen look less impressive than they should, and making the story unsatisfying.

 

Sure, the truth is, I don't believe a reasonable Mass Shifting scenario exists. And, what I'm hoping will happen is that if anyone who is really behind mass shifting examines it, they'll come over to my side.

 

But, if I'm wrong, and someone can produce for me the scenario in which Mass Shifting is a vital, effective and dangerous technology in the hands of the Decepticons, I'll change my tune faster than Gwen Stefani went from Ska to Hip-hop.

No, we don't need a new scenerio. Part of the purpose of transforming is disguise. What better disguise for a communications officier than a small portable radio or stereo system, and what better way to get the drop on unsuspecting humans and Autobots? It makes perfect sense! No one would look twice at an innocent stereo or tape deck. They are ubiquitous. The whole point of mass shifting when transforming into a tape deck, radio, stereo (or what-have-you) is for disguise purposes. What good is transforming into a stereo system if that stereo is 30' tall? He would still stick out like a sore thumb. so, no, Mass shifting is not unnecessary for that type of character, nor for a character like Perceptor if they were to use him in a sequel (which I highly doubt). It is vital for that kind of character and transformation.

[Hobbes-timus Prime]

No, we don't need a new scenerio. Part of the purpose of transforming is disguise. What better disguise for a communications officier than a small portable radio or stereo system, and what better way to get the drop on unsuspecting humans and Autobots? It makes perfect sense! No one would look twice at an innocent stereo or tape deck. They are ubiquitous. The whole point of mass shifting when transforming into a tape deck, radio, stereo (or what-have-you) is for disguise purposes. What good is transforming into a stereo system if that stereo is 30' tall? He would still stick out like a sore thumb. so, no, Mass shifting is not unnecessary for that type of character, nor for a character like Perceptor if they were to use him in a sequel (which I highly doubt). It is vital for that kind of character and transformation.

 

Oh, so now the whole point is disguise? Two posts ago he functioned ten times better as the device, but now the only point is disguise.

 

Look, I don't think you comprehend that I don't think Soundwave should turn into a stereo at all. A stereo is not only immobile, but weaponless and easily damaged. I even feel bad for movie Frenzy...although the fact that his robot mode is so small helps to compensate for the stereo's shortcomings. It means he's easy for the other Decepticons to carry around in their faster vehicle modes without draining too many of their resources, and he's harder to hit, meaning while he may not want to stand and fight Ironhide face-to-face, he would be capable of evading him if he had to. I honestly feel like growing larger in robot mode would be a determent to Frenzy.

 

If Soundwave is going to stand as tall as the other Decepticons (which I think he should), he should turn into something of an appropriate size, and of course a 30' foot stereo sticks out like a sore thumb. He can disguise himself as lots of other things that are thematically appropriate to his position in the Decepticon army, and not completely immobile or weaponless. Face it, even if mass shifting were a perfectly acceptable story point, a stereo is a pretty lame alt. mode for the head communications officer of an army waging a war on an alien planet (which Earth is to the Transformers).

[Aquarion]

Ummm... I think it's more 70/30 or even 80/20 with more emphasis on the movie/story itself.

You're forgetting that the movie itself is based on a toyline so that has to account for extra empathis on marketing. With most other movies that have a toyline tie-in, the movie comes first and then the toyline comes second. With the tf movie, the movie and toyline were developed cocurrently. Hasbro proably had a lot more imput than most other toy companies who make toylines based on movies.

[Terrorcon Blot]

What better disguise for a communications officier than a small portable radio or stereo system, and what better way to get the drop on unsuspecting humans and Autobots?

 

An unmarked van full of recording electronics.

A news helicopter.

The new limo the mayor/president/person of power drives around in every day.

An ice cream truck.

A garbage truck.

A slow moving street sweeper.

 

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

 

And all of those are mobile.

[Tramp]

No, we don't need a new scenerio. Part of the purpose of transforming is disguise. What better disguise for a communications officier than a small portable radio or stereo system, and what better way to get the drop on unsuspecting humans and Autobots? It makes perfect sense! No one would look twice at an innocent stereo or tape deck. They are ubiquitous. The whole point of mass shifting when transforming into a tape deck, radio, stereo (or what-have-you) is for disguise purposes. What good is transforming into a stereo system if that stereo is 30' tall? He would still stick out like a sore thumb. so, no, Mass shifting is not unnecessary for that type of character, nor for a character like Perceptor if they were to use him in a sequel (which I highly doubt). It is vital for that kind of character and transformation.

 

Oh, so now the whole point is disguise? Two posts ago he functioned ten times better as the device, but now the only point is disguise.

 

Look, I don't think you comprehend that I don't think Soundwave should turn into a stereo at all. A stereo is not only immobile, but weaponless and easily damaged. I even feel bad for movie Frenzy...although the fact that his robot mode is so small helps to compensate for the stereo's shortcomings. It means he's easy for the other Decepticons to carry around in their faster vehicle modes without draining too many of their resources, and he's harder to hit, meaning while he may not want to stand and fight Ironhide face-to-face, he would be capable of evading him if he had to. I honestly feel like growing larger in robot mode would be a determent to Frenzy.

 

If Soundwave is going to stand as tall as the other Decepticons (which I think he should), he should turn into something of an appropriate size, and of course a 30' foot stereo sticks out like a sore thumb. He can disguise himself as lots of other things that are thematically appropriate to his position in the Decepticon army, and not completely immobile or weaponless. Face it, even if mass shifting were a perfectly acceptable story point, a stereo is a pretty lame alt. mode for the head communications officer of an army waging a war on an alien planet (which Earth is to the Transformers).

I comprehend fully what you are talking about. a transformation into any piece of communications equipment will better help him in his job as Communications officer. A mode like a stereo, CD player, tape deck, etc. also better helps in the disguise department since they are so ubiquitous; they're all over the place and basically everyone has one. The heart of your agument is that you don't like the idea of Transformers turning into coomon everyday objects other than vehicles (and maybe animals), That is pretty much what you are saying, isn't it? The thing is though, that it doesn't work that way. A character's alt mode almost always is a reflection of his character or his job; especially for the "specialists" and having transformations into things other than vehicles or animals provides greater variety. For a communcations expert, a stereo system is ideal.

 

 

What better disguise for a communications officier than a small portable radio or stereo system, and what better way to get the drop on unsuspecting humans and Autobots?

 

An unmarked van full of recording electronics.

A news helicopter.

The new limo the mayor/president/person of power drives around in every day.

An ice cream truck.

A garbage truck.

A slow moving street sweeper.

 

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

 

And all of those are mobile.

 

Sure they are, but they don't really fit that character the way a stereo, CD player or tape deck does since the three I just mentioned are pieces of dedicated communications electronics with broadcast or playback functions. The only mode you mentions that even comes close is the van or news helecopter, which, while being good for collecting data, is of no use for anylizing it or playing it back for the others. Soundwave's original alt mode was an excellent disguise that also enhanced his function as a Communications officier, and actually made possible to fully fulfill his function without the use of outside equipment. It was a perfect alt form for him, and as such requires mass conversion capability. The perfect alt mode for a character is one that not only disguises him, but also enhances his function in his area of expertise. A transformation into dedicated communications hardware like a stereo, tape deck or CD player, or a computer, not only provides him with a perfect disguise becuase of their ubiquitous nature, but also greatly enhances his function as a communcations expert because they all can receive transmissions, analize the data, and store it, then play it back for others to hear in real time. They are also portable, though not self-mobile, but that sin't necessary to fulfill the function of communications.

 

Whether you like the idea or hate it, doesn't matter. It isn't a "stupid" idea, and does work well for given characters. Soundwave, Blaster, and Perceptor are just three of those characters whose alt modes in the cartoons were perfectly suited to their jobs, and who needed Mass converion to puul it off, and who, in a movie would also be best served with similar transformations and mass conversion capabilities. Just because you don't like that concept does not make it a bad one or a stupid one. Just because an alt mode isn't self mobil doesn't make it a stupid idea. It isn't good for the leader to have such an alt mode, but for others whose functions don't require that, so what?

A radio van or a helecopter are not something that most people will encounter everywhere. In fact, they are only around when something is up and having either mode is more likely to draw attention to you than it is to make an effective disguise. a portable tape deck, stereo system or CD player is not likely to draw any attention no matter where it is. That is what makes it such a good disguise for a communications officer, and, for someone like Soundwave, who needs to be on par with the others in size and power if for no other reason than survival in combat, such a transformation requires Mass conversion capability. For most of the other Decepticons, other than Frenzy, their alt modes are designed for assault, not stealth. They aren't meant to blend in. Soundwave and Movie Frenzy both have alt modes devoted to blending in to their surroundings. For Soundwave, who needs to be a large size robot, he also needs a small size alt mode devoted to data collection and analysis, and communications that easily blends in everywhere. That means a stereo system, CD player, or tape deck. That also means Mass conversion.