So same as Battle Rollar who can be sold for as little as $35 and still bring in profit, or even that $25 Rumble looking fella, these figures should be at a more respectable and fair price. $100 for the 2 is well worth putting a foot down over. If we don't, just imagine how much the next one will be?

 

Want proof, City Commander $80, Shadow $80, DIA $120 with a collective F-THAT, which gave us the City reissue back at $80

 

Sorry, what point are you trying to make here? City Commander was $75, Shadow Commander was limited so I think it was $90 and the DIA was not available in the US so it was $120. The reissue City Commander is $89 which is the original $75 plus the $12 for the upgrade kit that's included. I don't think it was the it's too expensive issue of DIA that made people not buy it as it was that domestic stores weren't really carrying it and that a fair amount of people already had it from TFCon.

DIA most certainly did get a widespread online release. And seeming as the TFCon version with the brief case sold outside of the convention in very limited numbers for around $300 I doubt all that many people had their fill of that version from the convention.

 

City cost me $80. The limited Shadow (which warmed the proverbial shelf) cost me $80. Even after that they were opertunistic with DIA releasing it without the briefcase for $120 figuring they could make a killing buy people looking for a second chance at the exclusive and it backfired. That right there is why they dropped the price back down on the 4th reissue.

 

It's a very valid point about the worth of being sensable consumers. The fact is very simple, they can do this for less, and our dollar is our vote. If we keep throwing those out the window, we can expect to keep getting gauged. If we act more prudent, we put the message out that we can't be overcharged.

 

And believe me, they will play ball, and maybe even show more loyalty. After all, the new Rollars come with new weapons and upgrades from the GoW2 set with brand new add ons and different color light piping for not a cent more then the origional.

 

There's nothing wrong with telling anyone that as a consumer, this is the type of service we want. Otherwise, your just gonna lose more money and get stepped on. Sorry, but thats not for me.

DIA most certainly did get a widespread online release. And seeming as the TFCon version with the brief case sold outside of the convention in very limited numbers for around $300 I doubt all that many people had their fill of that version from the convention.

 

City cost me $80. The limited Shadow (which warmed the proverbial shelf) cost me $80. Even after that they were opertunistic with DIA releasing it without the briefcase for $120 figuring they could make a killing buy people looking for a second chance at the exclusive and it backfired. That right there is why they dropped the price back down on the 4th reissue.

 

It's a very valid point about the worth of being sensable consumers. The fact is very simple, they can do this for less, and our dollar is our vote. If we keep throwing those out the window, we can expect to keep getting gauged. If we act more prudent, we put the message out that we can't be overcharged.

 

 

I understand what you are trying to say but I still think that the DIA to CC reissue is not a valid example. The DIA saw "widespread" online release because some e-tailers managed to get some through other channels probably. It's the same way that the exclusive henkeis are available on sites other than the original site they are exclusive to, such as the Dark Henkei Jetfire. Fansproject was not selling directly to US based retailers. I don't know what the DIA originally retailed for but the $120 that I've seen is probably due to having to go to a middleman rather than FP directly.

 

FP didn't drop the price on the reissue CC because of fan outrage over DIA it's because it originally came out at an MSRP of $75 so they reissued it at $75 plus the additional cost of the weapons set. I think it's safe to say that they didn't want to piss off consumers with raising the price on an already "used-to-death" mold. They even released the weapons set on its own so that the owners of the original CC set could just get the weapons. That seems pretty consumer friendly to me.

 

There's been more outrage over these two Bruticus upgrade sets because there are two separate ones with pretty hefty price tags but both of them "belong" to one figure. As I said in one of my other posts, compared to the Superion set they did I think it's a better deal since you get actual transforming figures rather than just bits and pieces.

 

If you don't want it then don't buy it. Simple as that, but I think there will be plenty of people that will buy it and keep the price point right where it is.

Yes, but I DO want it! I just don't want to pay so much for it!

 

I've been out of the loop for a few months. Can someone remind me what this "DIA" is?

Yes, but I DO want it! I just don't want to pay so much for it!

 

I've been out of the loop for a few months. Can someone remind me what this "DIA" is?

 

DIA was the Powered Commander (diaclone colors) armor that was exclusive to the Asian markets.

 

Well like I said I'm going to try to have a group buy for them so hopefully we'll get them cheaper than retail.

 

Okay I just thought of a new way to look at this. Encore Bruticus retailed for about $85ish from the looks of it. If you bought both FP upgrade kits and the ROTF Bruticus you'd be looking at $130ish. Personally I'd rather spend the extra $45 for an updated Bruticus with newer, more articulated molds. There are plenty of accessories that come in both sets to at least rival what's in the Encore version.

well not really because it dirrectly reflects the cost of both engeneering, manufacturing, and distributing the item. I keep using the example of RobotKingdoms cost because it is significantly lower. So that right there just makes me wonder with all the steps in concept, manufacture, and production taken into effect, if this site can sell the item for so much less, what is the cost to TFC where they're still turning a profit too?

I'm sorry, I must be misunderstanding you. When you said "When I ordered my Battle Rollar from them it came out to about $10 less then the BBTS start price even with shipping", did you mean that Battle Rollar - as sold by Robot Kingdom - cost less than the same Battle Rollar, as sold by Big Bad Toy Store? (In which case, the problem lies with BBTS.) Or did you mean that Battle Rollar cost less than what Big Bad Toy Store is offering for the new Explorer and Munitioner sets? (In which case, we should just move on to the next point.)

 

It's fucking plastic, the shits all over the place.

This doesn't change the fact that (a) more raw material means higher costs, and (b) the price of commercial plastics have been rising, primarily because they are formed from petroleum. I don't think you can argue that plastics essentially have no cost factor, simply because we are surrounded on a day to day basis by plastic products.

 

Now do me a favor, don't tell me about the QC unless you know what it is for a fact. Everyday we get new pics of something or another that looks solid and true and just plain isn't.

 

I know everyone swears by Fansprojects like they're the second coming, but here's what I Know from my experiences. Both city and Shadow Commander, 2 very well designed figures. Both have super tight leg pieces that are so tight they may just break once by putting them on and off. They have chest armor that gets dislogged when moving the arms. Then they have big robot hands that slide right off the arms if you put anything in them.

-I have 3 versions, all of which share these issues.

 

Then we have the Cliffjumper upgrade. I never opened mine, but have seen a couple. Don't expect those guns to fit well

 

Lastly, the Superion upgrade. I only set it up in robot mode and tinkered with it for a second, so in all fairness I can't say anything. Same goes for the G3 trailer, I don't have it so it's off limits. The gas tank gun was so over priced I never even thought about it.

I can not know at this time what the quality of the finished Munitioner and Explorer sets will be any more than yourself. Personally, I have been happy with the sets that you name and found no issue of significant consequence. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this particular point, as it seems to rest so completely on our own subjective experiences.

 

Now don't get me wrong I like Fansprojects, but at the end of the day it comes down to the fact that this crap is plastic. Plastic is cheap, and these guys should be established enough by now where they can afford it. I know several local manufactures who have product much more detailed made in China who have a final sale cost of a lot less. I can also say most are very very small companies so it's not a corporate Has/tak type thing.

 

So same as Battle Rollar who can be sold for as little as $35 and still bring in profit, or even that $25 Rumble looking fella, these figures should be at a more respectable and fair price. $100 for the 2 is well worth putting a foot down over. If we don't, just imagine how much the next one will be? Want proof, City Commander $80, Shadow $80, DIA $120 with a collective F-THAT, which gave us the City reissue back at $80

I fully believe that you know local manufacturers who have similar product with a lower overall cost; but again (as with the Battle Rollar example) I think you might be comparing apples and oranges. Would it be too much to ask that you furnish some examples, so that we might see if an adequate comparison can be drawn?

 

As for the actual price comparison: based on our discussion, Battle Rollar contains one Scout-sized figure, and is approximately $35. Munitioner and Explorer both contain one Scout-sized figure, plus a significant number of accessories, and are approximately $50 (30% more). Now unless you want to dispute that the accessories constitute roughly the same amount of raw material as the figure they accompany, it would appear that one would be purchasing twice as much raw material as the Battle Rollar release for only a 30% increase.

 

(One could add to this that the newer versions of Battle Rollar feature some additional accessories at the same price, thus further increasing the value of the figure. At the same time, one could also argue that these additional accessories were added specifically to increase interest in the newer versions, as they remain for the most part significantly unchanged from the original or one another.)

 

As for the fact that both sets together total approximately $100; this is irrelevant. One might as well argue that purchasing two Battle Rollars for $70 is unacceptable; it simply is what it is.

 

DIA most certainly did get a widespread online release.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't DIA released specifically to the Japanese market? That would explain the cost increase compared to other releases of the same mold.

 

It's a very valid point about the worth of being sensable consumers. The fact is very simple, they can do this for less, and our dollar is our vote. If we keep throwing those out the window, we can expect to keep getting gauged. If we act more prudent, we put the message out that we can't be overcharged.

 

And believe me, they will play ball, and maybe even show more loyalty. After all, the new Rollars come with new weapons and upgrades from the GoW2 set with brand new add ons and different color light piping for not a cent more then the origional.

 

There's nothing wrong with telling anyone that as a consumer, this is the type of service we want. Otherwise, your just gonna lose more money and get stepped on. Sorry, but thats not for me.

There are two problems here.

 

The first is that we do not actually have a breakdown of FansProjects pricing structure. We do not know how much their items cost to produce, we do not know how much profit they generate, or how much of said profit is pocketed by the individual members of the group. (I believe they are on record as saying that all profits are directed back into producing new items.) Therefore, when you say that FansProject can produce these items for less, you are doing so without basis. (One can estimate based on similar examples of figure manufacturing, such as Battle Rollar and the companies you referred to earlier; however, these are still estimates.) In short: if FansProject are overcharging, then they deserve to be criticized as such. But how can you know that they are overcharging?

 

The second problem is that the premise you refer to - that consumers will 'vote with their wallets' - is true. Specifically, it is true right now. Consumers have voted with their wallets; they have voted to support FansProject's pricing structure (and it appears that this trend will continue into the future.) In short, consumers have found some je ne sais quoi quality in the work of FansProject that is apparently worth paying for. By your own admission, you do not feel the same way; but based on the continued outpouring of FansProject products, it would appear - and I truly mean this politely - that you are in the minority.

Look, one "can" and "can't" argue and say all they want.

I'm not going to because I have better things to do with a Saturday. When you take something like a round plastic tube and go on about the cost and matereals, I easily see your point, but then when you say pfft to new guns and parts on a different figure, you just as easily loose my attention.

 

You wanted an example of a local item, here...

A small company in PA handles this one. Each one comes with 15 dog toys. Each one also retails for only $10. Hell this one is just short of life sized from the same people and only cost $25

 

No corporate sponsor ship, these are stored and shipped from a garage.

 

This one I have no picture of but it's barily a company. My sister sells padded hooded sweatshirts out of her basement under the name Night Gear. Now it's not plastic but a ton of other raw matereals hardly ordered in any bulk, but each shirt is huge with custom cut padded and stitched sections for the pillow. Each on average sells for $25

 

Sorry, but I can't look at what I know, and still believe something smaller then a pen tube, a box, and a foot with a wheel is gonna warrant that type of mark up to a scout.

 

Also BR is a large deluxe :P

Look, one "can" and "can't" argue and say all they want.

I'm not going to because I have better things to do with a Saturday. When you take something like a round plastic tube and go on about the cost and matereals, I easily see your point, but then when you say pfft to new guns and parts on a different figure, you just as easily loose my attention.

But again, you are both comparing apples and oranges, and also disregarding the intricacies of the manufacturing process. The new accessories accompanying the Battle Rollar + gun set aren't actually 'new'; they are a sub-set of exactly the same items sold in the 'Gear of War 2' set. At the very least, this means the cost is split between the two different sets. (Whereas the accessories accompanying the Munitioner and Explorer sets require entire new molds that, outside of a limited edition recolor, have virtually no reuse potential).

 

Plus: the Gear of War set is approximately $25 for two weapons. Thus, one weapon by itself is $12.50. So either TFC are throwing in a free weapon worth more than 35% of the value of the original Battle Rollar (an unlikely business model), or the original Battle Rollar release had a 35% margin that could be safely eaten up (in which case the original Battle Rollar was overpriced), or the weapon simply isn't worth $12.50 (in which case the Gear of War set is overpriced).

 

You wanted an example of a local item, here...

 

A small company in PA handles this one. Each one comes with 15 dog toys. Each one also retails for only $10. Hell this one is just short of life sized from the same people and only cost $25

 

No corporate sponsor ship, these are stored and shipped from a garage.

 

This one I have no picture of but it's barily a company. My sister sells padded hooded sweatshirts out of her basement under the name Night Gear. Now it's not plastic but a ton of other raw matereals hardly ordered in any bulk, but each shirt is huge with custom cut padded and stitched sections for the pillow. Each on average sells for $25

Thanks for the examples - I hope you don't mind me snipping out the pictures, I figured they didn't need reposting. :)

 

Again, I think the first two examples sort of illustrate what I'm getting at. The impression I'm taking away from your comments is that the design work, the engineering, and the mold-making are all basically negligible elements of the manufacturing process. Those dog toys are, I'm assuming, one single piece of material - and yet you equate this to a figure of many small, intricately moving parts that must be produced within very specific tolerances or else be rendered potentially unsaleable. (And let us say nothing again of how there are different plastics).

 

Sorry, but I can't look at what I know, and still believe something smaller then a pen tube, a box, and a foot with a wheel is gonna warrant that type of mark up to a scout.

And now you're comparing an independently, self-financed item to something produced en masse and with considerable reuse value by Hasbro! :)

 

But again, I digress. It is clear that we disagree as to whether or not the Munitioner and Explorer sets are worth the asking price; and that's okay. If they are overpriced, then they will not sell; FansProject will learn, and either adapt or perish as a commercial entity. If they are fairly priced then business will continue as usual. All we can do is wait and see.

 

Anyhow, thanks for the thought-provoking discussion; it's appreciated. :)

 

Edit: spelling, my eternal nemessis nemememsis enemy.

you can't dance on the class situation. You yourself just 2 posts up where compairing BR as a scout to the FP scouts.

 

I can also assure you the dog toys are not single piece items. Each is a base a chamber and a lid, on the smaller one all the ports are individual pieces. and again each came filled with smaller items. The sheer volume of materials shows the point of how inexpensive plastic items can be made and manufactured for.

 

I can see how individual pieces can become costly, I'm willing to bet though that these parts and figures will be cast on trees and not have eash part processed individualy.

 

Also, I am not compairing apples and oranges. I have the GoW2 set, and the items sold with the bew Battle Rollars are significantly different, These peices are not just being recycled from left over sets. They are being recast and updated being added to a figure at no additional costs to said figure.

Not for anything, you only get 2 LED guns in the GoW2 set. There are 4 guns though not 2. Before you decide to correct me and say there are only 3, the spare parts combined make a nice forth.

 

The design work is actualy why I keep bringing up Battle Rollar. Earlier in this thread I posted 2 review clips that still couldn't cover everything the figure is capable of. I am most assuredly looking at the engeneering and design when factored into cost. This is why Battle Rollar is impressing me over these 2 new figures.

 

I'm keeping all this stuff in mind and it's my basis for my beileif that the $100 combined price for this upgrade set is to much. It's an educated oppinion on my end.

 

It's kind of like compairing a Nissan to an Infinty. You pay a whole lot more for the one with the fancy name, but their really the same thing, made by the same people. There's just something about that name though which makes you overlook the obvious and justify the cost. hell I think Nissan only calls it a Murano so people will wanna spend more on the FX35.

 

Anyhow, take, twist, and dismiss what I'm saying all you want. Fact of the matter is my mind and oppinion are set. I will agree this is a very nice looking set, I'd really like to own it(and just may), howere I still stand true in saying it's to little bang for to much buck.

you can't dance on the class situation. You yourself just 2 posts up where compairing BR as a scout to the FP scouts.

Hmm? Oh, I'm not dancing on the issue - I just don't think it's that relevant. I haven't got my Battle Rollar in front of me right now (he lives on top of my office workstation); but insofar as my memory suffices, calling the figure deluxe-sized might be a bit of a stretch. (Battle Rollar is admittedly slightly larger than a Scout; but the figure also has great swathes of cut-outs, presumably to reduce weight and cost. You know what might be a really interesting experiment? Weighing the figure for comparison. I might do that on Monday, just for curiosity's sake. :))

 

I can also assure you the dog toys are not single piece items. Each is a base a chamber and a lid, on the smaller one all the ports are individual pieces. and again each came filled with smaller items. The sheer volume of materials shows the point of how inexpensive plastic items can be made and manufactured for.

I'm sorry; when I referred to the toys potentially being single piece items, I actually meant the smaller content items - not the actual containers themselves. (Indeed, if the container was both the shape depicted in the images you provided, and a single piece, then there would be no way to open it to insert the contents!) As for the sheer volume of materials, well - again, I refer to the quality of plastic. For instance: it is possible to purchase knock-offs of various Transformers at a significantly cheaper price-point. Should we believe that both items are fundamentally identical in terms of such aspects as quality, durability etc.; despite the wildly disparate price points?

 

I can see how individual pieces can become costly, I'm willing to bet though that these parts and figures will be cast on trees and not have eash part processed individualy.

I'm sure they will too; but that still means that a whole lot of mold manufacturing has to be done. One big mold or many small molds; this does not change the fact that with each additional piece, the cost goes up.

 

And again, unlike Battle Rollar - which is now available or about to be available in as many as what, five different colours? - the Munitioner and Explorer figures and the Bruticus accessories all have an extremely limited reuse value. Outside of something along the lines of a 'Snowman Superion' limited release, there's really no obvious way of putting the molds back to work.

 

Also, I am not compairing apples and oranges. I have the GoW2 set, and the items sold with the bew Battle Rollars are significantly different, These peices are not just being recycled from left over sets. They are being recast and updated being added to a figure at no additional costs to said figure.

 

Not for anything, you only get 2 LED guns in the GoW2 set. There are 4 guns though not 2. Before you decide to correct me and say there are only 3, the spare parts combined make a nice forth.

Unfortunately I have neither the Gear of War 2 set, or the updated Battle Rollar set, so I couldn't say. From visual inspection however, I have to say that it appears the items from both are near-identical, at least to my eyes. If you would be so kind as to elucidate precisely what changed between the two releases, I would be enormously grateful.

 

As for the comment regarding the number of weapons in the Gear of War 2 set; I mean only that there were - according to my understanding of the contents at the time of writing - two LED units. I was not aware that the remaining components could be put together to form an additional two weapons; that's a nice benefit, to be sure. However, as I was including these additional pieces as accessories to and therefore parts of the two LED units, it doesn't really change my previous point any.

 

The design work is actualy why I keep bringing up Battle Rollar. Earlier in this thread I posted 2 review clips that still couldn't cover everything the figure is capable of. I am most assuredly looking at the engeneering and design when factored into cost. This is why Battle Rollar is impressing me over these 2 new figures.

 

I'm keeping all this stuff in mind and it's my basis for my beileif that the $100 combined price for this upgrade set is to much. It's an educated oppinion on my end.

I'm thinking this is a case of different strokes for different folks. Again; I'm very happy with my Battle Rollar. I too am impressed that the figure is compatible with several different incarnations of Optimus Prime, can act as three kinds of Roller, and may mount weapons in a variety of different locations and configurations.

 

But to be impressed by such fine design, and then ignore that visually inherent in the Bruticus upgrade sets? Explorer's tailfin is also an axe which is also a folding knife. There are four guns provided that can be combined together to form two super-shotguns. There is a folding anti-materiel rifle with a pivoting grip, presumably so that it may be wielded by both Onslaught and Bruticus. The accessories are all designed to be carried by the individual robots, individual vehicles, and on Bruticus with nary a leftover piece.

 

Then you've got the hands, which are stored inside of containers that are also used to create the left forearm of Bruticus; combine these pieces together, and you get another weapon! Munitioner uses exactly the same double-peg interface as Brawl, which means the two can be easily switched. (It appears that Explorer also has this feature.) There's a whole new head attached to a new baseplate which (presumably like all of FansProject's previous releases) will attach to Onslaught without the need to knock out a metal pin.

 

Can you tell me, in all honesty, that you don't see any of this as comparably thoughtful and effective design? :)

 

It's kind of like compairing a Nissan to an Infinty. You pay a whole lot more for the one with the fancy name, but their really the same thing, made by the same people. There's just something about that name though which makes you overlook the obvious and justify the cost. hell I think Nissan only calls it a Murano so people will wanna spend more on the FX35.

I cannot agree more that it is entirely possible for (1) people to pay just for a brand name because (2) they associate said brand name with a degree of quality or other desirable aspect and (3) the manufacturer of the brand may take advantage of this and produce a lower-quality product whilst preying on the good intentions of the customer.

 

At the same time, it is also wholly possible that an item may be worth the additional cost, even where the normal frameworks of value one attempts to apply would dictate otherwise. Take for instance a Nissan Altima, and a Bugatti Veyron. Were one to simply look at them as a form of conveyance - a means by which to get to and from work, maybe run the kids to school - then the Veyron is a ridiculously overpriced automobile. (Also, a horrible means of transporting multiple children.)

 

Ah! But if one actually has the funds to afford a Veyron, then it is something else - a street-legal racing vehicle, a work of art, a status symbol, an article of great rarity value. If one does not take into account these factors, then by all means the Veyron is going to appear overpriced in comparison.

 

Anyhow, take, twist, and dismiss what I'm saying all you want. Fact of the matter is my mind and oppinion are set. I will agree this is a very nice looking set, I'd really like to own it(and just may), howere I still stand true in saying it's to little bang for to much buck.

That's totally okay - I'm not on a mission to change your mind (for the most part, I'm just enjoying an opportunity to exercise the mental faculties). And like both you and I have said, several times now - if the consumers find the set to be overpriced, then they shall say so with their wallets and FansProject will be the very first to know. :)