Actually, Overload was always in the movie design for Devastator. Even the earliest announcements over the identities of the Constructicons who formed Devastator(and their vehicle forms) had Overload listed among them. According to the SDCC panel, Hasbro simply omitted him in the Supreme class toy to simplify the toy since you can't see Overload in the final combined mode anyway.

Is that what Hasbro actually said? That they omitted him because you can see him in the final, combined mode of film Devastator?

 

That's unfortunate for the left leg! :lol

 

Seriously though, if Hasbro really meant what they said, then the only plausible conclusion one can arrive at is that both versions of Devastator featured all seven Constructicon members, but differed wildly on their combination. This would explain, to a certain extent, why Overload is part of the EZ Devastator torso - maybe that's where TakTomy were told he went.

 

Again... real thoughtful of ILM.

 

Yes, they did want to keep the costs down, hence wanting to simplify the design. Either way, Overload was a part of the movie design itself from the beginning.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that Hasbro can manufacture an Energon combiner with a retail price point of forty dollars, and they can create a voyager class toy and six deluxe class toys for approximately eighty dollars, but they can only produce a six-member, non-transforming Megazord-esque toy for one hundred dollars.

 

And if Hasbro really were worried about pushing supreme Devastator over the $100 price-point? Then it's their own damn fault for making the toy so ridiculously big.

 

I don't know if Hasbro had any problem with Bay/ILM making changes (doubtful), but I see this last minute design change as a devaluation of the final merchandise. :shrug I mean, I don't wanna buy that Supreme debacle!

Exactly - it's not the worst thing ever, but it seems as if ILM just aren't being all that considerate toward the company that is coincidentally providing the intellectual property that the film is riding on.

 

It really isn't that hard to get the robot designs nailed down early. They don't have to be rendered, they don't have to be animated, they don't have to be textured, they don't have to be built, they don't even have to be finely detailed - but little things like "Oh, hey that guy that forms the leg? Yeah, he's a hand now" should not happen in post-production.

Actually, Overload was always in the movie design for Devastator. Even the earliest announcements over the identities of the Constructicons who formed Devastator(and their vehicle forms) had Overload listed among them. According to the SDCC panel, Hasbro simply omitted him in the Supreme class toy to simplify the toy since you can't see Overload in the final combined mode anyway.

Is that what Hasbro actually said? That they omitted him because you can see him in the final, combined mode of film Devastator?

 

That's unfortunate for the left leg! :lol

 

Seriously though, if Hasbro really meant what they said, then the only plausible conclusion one can arrive at is that both versions of Devastator featured all seven Constructicon members, but differed wildly on their combination. This would explain, to a certain extent, why Overload is part of the EZ Devastator torso - maybe that's where TakTomy were told he went.

 

Again... real thoughtful of ILM.

 

Yes, they did want to keep the costs down, hence wanting to simplify the design. Either way, Overload was a part of the movie design itself from the beginning.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that Hasbro can manufacture an Energon combiner with a retail price point of forty dollars, and they can create a voyager class toy and six deluxe class toys for approximately eighty dollars, but they can only produce a six-member, non-transforming Megazord-esque toy for one hundred dollars.

 

And if Hasbro really were worried about pushing supreme Devastator over the $100 price-point? Then it's their own damn fault for making the toy so ridiculously big.

:agree Look at what kind of short stuff Soundwave is. Now why couldn't we get 6 that size, then add the voyager Demolisher, all individually transformable (the weight CAN be supported if you hunch Dev over on all fours, relying on the added articulation of Overload)...voi-la...he's maybe the height of Leader Megs (with more bulk of course), fully transformable, and around $80 bucks!

 

I don't know if Hasbro had any problem with Bay/ILM making changes (doubtful), but I see this last minute design change as a devaluation of the final merchandise. :shrug I mean, I don't wanna buy that Supreme debacle!

Exactly - it's not the worst thing ever, but it seems as if ILM just aren't being all that considerate toward the company that is coincidentally providing the intellectual property that the film is riding on.

 

It really isn't that hard to get the robot designs nailed down early. They don't have to be rendered, they don't have to be animated, they don't have to be textured, they don't have to be built, they don't even have to be finely detailed - but little things like "Oh, hey that guy that forms the leg? Yeah, he's a hand now" should not happen in post-production.

As I keep watching this combination scene over and over (both the cut-down & originally-edited versions), the continuity is a mess! It seems to start off nicely, with the Terex excavator grabbing the Mack mixer, pan left to the wheel loader locking into place, pan right to the crane locking in...but wait, where did Overload disappear to? He gets completely lost in the mix between one of the many jump cuts. The smaller-than-what-it-should-be bulldozer is transforming into...a hand?! Wait, where did it come from...it was just on that ridge with the dump truck. Oh wait, the dump truck is now right in front of our actors...who the camera's been cutting back to in the same spot the whole time! Well, they run off & it [dump truck] begins to transform...in front of the main body mind you. Cut to the crane arm plugging the smaller-than-what-it-should-be bulldozer in as the left...hand?! Wait, I thought he was supposed to be bigger...and a LEG?! Cut to our actors hiding behind a truck...and then BAM!! The legs (the dump truck that was in front of all the action & the appropriately-sized bulldozer that came out of nowhere) are suddenly already plugged into the torso of Devastator...and now he's struggling to raise his overgrown ass with a ROAR!!!

 

Jump cut editing? Random ILM sequences? Both?! But maybe even more importantly...who the hell thought we were gonna miss this?!?! :doh

Oh, guys...in regards to Overload's vehicle...I'm having more luck finding reference material when I google "Coal Hauler". Most appear to be Caterpillars; however, I did find a Komatsu model CH175 that looks similar...unfortunately none of the pics I've found so far are very big. Anyway, thought it worth noting in our quest! ;)

:agree Look at what kind of short stuff Soundwave is. Now why couldn't we get 6 that size, then add the voyager Demolisher, all individually transformable (the weight CAN be supported if you hunch Dev over on all fours, relying on the added articulation of Overload)...voi-la...he's maybe the height of Leader Megs (with more bulk of course), fully transformable, and around $80 bucks!

Exactly - that still leaves $10 for an electronic light and sound gimmick, and $10 to spare! :)

 

And as for the weight issue... there basically isn't one. The problem with combining toys of this size isn't weight - it's rigidity in the individual components. This sort of problem can be solved in two easy steps. One: ensure that the 'limb' mode for each member is pegged tight and will not come undone under stress. Two: ensure that any joint represented in such limb is ratcheted.

 

That's it!

 

Of course, the one area the toy falls down in is size - but to my mind, that's where Hasbro is going wrong with supreme Devastator. Kids and collectors alike want a toy that is fun... and 'huge' is not necessarily synonymous with 'fun'. Toy flexibility, on the other hand - such as might be achieved by including a robot mode, and heck, even interchangeable weapons and other features - that's a goldmine (as the Lego corporation will gleefully attest.)

 

As I keep watching this combination scene over and over (both the cut-down & originally-edited versions), the continuity is a mess! It starts off nicely, with the Terex excavator grabbing the Mack mixer, pan left to the wheel loader locking into place, pan right to the crane locking in...then it starts getting odd. The smaller-than-what-it-should-be bulldozer is transforming into...a hand?! Wait, where did it come from...it was just on that ridge with the dump truck. Oh wait, the dump truck is now right in front of our actors...who the camera's been cutting back to in the same spot the whole time! Well, they run off & it [dump truck] begins to transform...in front of the main body mind you. Cut to the crane arm plugging the smaller-than-what-it-should-be bulldozer in as the left...hand?! Wait, I thought he was supposed to be bigger...and a LEG?! Cut to our actors hiding behind a truck...and then BAM!! The legs (the dump truck that was in front of all the action & the appropriately-sized bulldozer that came out of nowhere) are suddenly already plugged into the torso of Devastator...and now he's struggling to raise his overgrown ass with a ROAR!!!

 

Editing? Random ILM sequences? Or both?! But maybe even more importantly...who the hell thought we were gonna miss this?!?! :doh

 

Here's something I find particularly interesting about the entire sequence - it basically highlights, in all their glory, the foibles of Michael Bay.

 

For starters, note that we never seem to see Hightower moving. Too slow, perhaps? Or too ponderously dangerous? Who knows. Mixmaster races onto the scene, is clearly in the process of overtaking a slightly slower Overload, and then a second later slams on the breaks to stop just past a completely stationary Overload that is already level with Hightower. Long Haul and Rampage pull up on the ridgeline because, lets face it, it's a cool shot.

 

Continuity enters a death spiral.

 

We cut back to our main guys, only to find that Mixmaster has quietly moved backwards so that he is level with Overload again. Scrapper has also quietly pulled up, although initially it didn't seem as if there was room for him to Mixmaster's left. Scrapper then pulls back - as it turns out there wasn't enough space for him after all, what with Mixmaster and Hightower quietly moving closer together.

 

At this point, the transformation begins. Scrapper teleports to Mixmaster's right, and turns into an arm. Mixmaster plugs in. The near-500,000lb Hightower becomes a small forearm. Rampage teleports in. Long Haul teleports in front of Devastator. (Got to have that awesome shot of Simmons and Spitz hiding behind him!) Rampage connects! Suddenly, both legs are finished! Devastator's neck and head are somehow still connecting though. I guess there's a lot of wires or something.

 

Now, what can we determine from all of this?

 

First of all, Bay will happily composite an insane shot if he thinks it has sufficient cool factor. Long Haul on a ridge? Check. Long Haul in front of Devastator? Check. Who cares if he's not where he needs to be? There's too much awesome going on to worry about that. It's like Bay's care and concern for plot and story and character development, only turned up to the nth degree.

 

Secondly, there's a clear disconnect between the footage that Bay shot, and the sequence ILM created. Probably the biggest example of this is the real Scrapper being on the left of Scavenger, when he obviously needed to be on the right in order to line up as an arm. Whether this was a result of ILM failing to properly instruct Bay, or Bay having zero interest in such mundane concerns as the placement of integral shot entities, is anyone's guess.

 

Thirdly, the master of shooting for the edit could be accused of relying far too much on quick cuts. Every editor relies on the power of the fast cutaway - sometimes one has to make the best of a shot, even though there's a boom mic visible, or the stuntman fell wrong, or things aren't quite as continuous as they are supposed to be. Few editors, however, make a career out of this technique. Someone actually figured out the average length of a cut in Armageddon once; it turned out to be 1.5 seconds. When the shots are flying past that fast, there are all sorts of things you can get away with.

 

Finally... yes. Yes, Michael Bay really does think his audience is that dumb. It's the same Michael Bay that didn't think there would be a problem with the twins, the same Michael Bay that thinks the twins are 'kid-friendly', the same Michael Bay that had little to no hesitation in announcing that one of the fandom's beloved characters would be summarily killed off, the same Michael Bay that spent over a minute depicting a submarine and its crew whose only contribution to the ongoing plot was to nonsensically reveal that five blips went down... but six came up.

 

Heck, if I was Michael Bay, I would think that I was god's gift to cinema also. I mean, the guy knows exactly what kind of movie he's making and yet the studios keep giving him more and more money! He must be doing something right, right?

 

...right?

Oh, guys...in regards to Overload's vehicle...I'm having more luck finding reference material when I google "Coal Hauler". Most appear to be Caterpillars; however, I did find a Komatsu model CH175 that looks similar...unfortunately none of the pics I've found so far are very big. Anyway, thought it worth noting in our quest! ;)

The Komatsus and the Caterpillars are virtually identical. The only way you can tell them apart is their headlights. The Komatsus have rectangular headlights. The Caterpillars have round ones. Overload has round headlights.

Looking good!

^ Some great ideas you're working on, John! You know of course when you get Long Haul...all this will start to morph into 5 other possibilities! :bounce That's good though...means you'll be that much further ahead of the game! And it's good that you're cataloging these trials with pics, as not to forget any possible configurations! :thumb

 

One particular configuration catches my eye immediately...and I didn't know if I'd like it at first mention, but...I'm REALLY diggin' that Rampage arm mode! :eek Seems very incorporated as it more or less grows into Demolisher! And the ripper for a hand...good job!

 

Have you tried transforming Mixmaster in an individual leg mode? I'm wondering once Long Haul is released, if he can become the abdomenal area & thighs, that possibly Mixmaster & Scrapper (if they ever release him!) could plug into? Then wrap Hightower (another hopeful!!) around the other Demolisher arm trunk. I guess all we'd be left to use for the head is actually Dirt Boss! Just an idea...and I think this setup would start to feel close to the G1 combination, for better or worse. :shrug

 

And by the grace of the Almighty, if they were to release Overload...back to the drawing board! :D

 

Man, you're gonna make me start playing around with these guys! ;) There's so many possibilities...bring on the freakin' Constructicons, Hasbro!!! :9000

Looking good!

Thanks! I think I'm done now until I get Longhaul.

 

Here's another take on Demolisher and Mixmaster (they can be done in many different ways). I didn't like how the top of the cab came out as a "pot belly." Now it's on his back:

 

And here's my first attempt at an arm mode for Rampage:

Oh holy awesomness! (Yes, i know that's not a phrase in the english language. No I'm not sure what it means either... :tfgrin)

As I keep watching this combination scene over and over (both the cut-down & originally-edited versions), the continuity is a mess! It starts off nicely, with the Terex excavator grabbing the Mack mixer, pan left to the wheel loader locking into place, pan right to the crane locking in...then it starts getting odd. The smaller-than-what-it-should-be bulldozer is transforming into...a hand?! Wait, where did it come from...it was just on that ridge with the dump truck. Oh wait, the dump truck is now right in front of our actors...who the camera's been cutting back to in the same spot the whole time! Well, they run off & it [dump truck] begins to transform...in front of the main body mind you. Cut to the crane arm plugging the smaller-than-what-it-should-be bulldozer in as the left...hand?! Wait, I thought he was supposed to be bigger...and a LEG?! Cut to our actors hiding behind a truck...and then BAM!! The legs (the dump truck that was in front of all the action & the appropriately-sized bulldozer that came out of nowhere) are suddenly already plugged into the torso of Devastator...and now he's struggling to raise his overgrown ass with a ROAR!!!

 

Editing? Random ILM sequences? Or both?! But maybe even more importantly...who the hell thought we were gonna miss this?!?! :doh

 

Here's something I find particularly interesting about the entire sequence - it basically highlights, in all their glory, the foibles of Michael Bay.

 

For starters, note that we never seem to see Hightower moving. Too slow, perhaps? Or too ponderously dangerous? Who knows. Mixmaster races onto the scene, is clearly in the process of overtaking a slightly slower Overload, and then a second later slams on the breaks to stop just past a completely stationary Overload that is already level with Hightower. Long Haul and Rampage pull up on the ridgeline because, lets face it, it's a cool shot.

 

Continuity enters a death spiral.

 

We cut back to our main guys, only to find that Mixmaster has quietly moved backwards so that he is level with Overload again. Scrapper has also quietly pulled up, although initially it didn't seem as if there was room for him to Mixmaster's left. Scrapper then pulls back - as it turns out there wasn't enough space for him after all, what with Mixmaster and Hightower quietly moving closer together.

 

At this point, the transformation begins. Scrapper teleports to Mixmaster's right, and turns into an arm. Mixmaster plugs in. The near-500,000lb Hightower becomes a small forearm. Rampage teleports in. Long Haul teleports in front of Devastator. (Got to have that awesome shot of Simmons and Spitz hiding behind him!) Rampage connects! Suddenly, both legs are finished! Devastator's neck and head are somehow still connecting though. I guess there's a lot of wires or something.

 

Now, what can we determine from all of this?

 

First of all, Bay will happily composite an insane shot if he thinks it has sufficient cool factor. Long Haul on a ridge? Check. Long Haul in front of Devastator? Check. Who cares if he's not where he needs to be? There's too much awesome going on to worry about that. It's like Bay's care and concern for plot and story and character development, only turned up to the nth degree.

 

Secondly, there's a clear disconnect between the footage that Bay shot, and the sequence ILM created. Probably the biggest example of this is the real Scrapper being on the left of Scavenger, when he obviously needed to be on the right in order to line up as an arm. Whether this was a result of ILM failing to properly instruct Bay, or Bay having zero interest in such mundane concerns as the placement of integral shot entities, is anyone's guess.

 

Thirdly, the master of shooting for the edit could be accused of relying far too much on quick cuts. Every editor relies on the power of the fast cutaway - sometimes one has to make the best of a shot, even though there's a boom mic visible, or the stuntman fell wrong, or things aren't quite as continuous as they are supposed to be. Few editors, however, make a career out of this technique. Someone actually figured out the average length of a cut in Armageddon once; it turned out to be 1.5 seconds. When the shots are flying past that fast, there are all sorts of things you can get away with.

 

Finally... yes. Yes, Michael Bay really does think his audience is that dumb. It's the same Michael Bay that didn't think there would be a problem with the twins, the same Michael Bay that thinks the twins are 'kid-friendly', the same Michael Bay that had little to no hesitation in announcing that one of the fandom's beloved characters would be summarily killed off, the same Michael Bay that spent over a minute depicting a submarine and its crew whose only contribution to the ongoing plot was to nonsensically reveal that five blips went down... but six came up.

 

Heck, if I was Michael Bay, I would think that I was god's gift to cinema also. I mean, the guy knows exactly what kind of movie he's making and yet the studios keep giving him more and more money! He must be doing something right, right?

 

...right?

Exquisite phrase! Here's my quick comments to your points:

 

First - "So true!"

 

Second & Third (combined) - "Ya know...out of all my many years of higher education, which included a few film & multimedia classes, even I managed to learn about 'marks' and the no-no of 'jump cuts'...why doesn't this professional get it?!" - the same goes for your take on the transformation continuity (or lack thereof).

 

Finally - Ego? Out of touch? Perhaps both...

 

Right?! :doh

By the way...anyone notice that Long Haul was left out of the SDCC Hasbro panel announcements? :wtf Maybe it's b/c he's about to be released soon, but...I was really hoping to hear about some of the next ones, like say Scrapper!?!