A guerrila strike could have devastating effects and you know what they say, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Large vehicles work poorly in town as well. During World War 2, tank commanders were also instructed to stay out of them.

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in the Gundam animies, the only thing that can destroy a mobile suit is another mobile suit so they're virtually indestructible.

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Would not nessecarily say that. A chain is a strong as its weakest link. A suit has to be used by a human. And humans need to sleep/eat/go to the john so all you do is wait for him to leave his suit kill him and take his suit. Even if you cannot control it, you can still destroy it from the inside.

 

Nothing or no one is unbeatable. I really learned that lesson when the U.S.S. Defiant was destroyed by the Breen in the Deep Space Nine episode "The Changing Face Of Evil."

 

And in kid-shows writers love to come up with inbeatable weapons and stuff like that.  The Japanese especially seem to have an attitude that humans can build anything which is pretty much unbeatable.

 

Of course, US writers can also be a bit arrogant. In Star Trek, I have never seen an alien captain as center of the show. Most of the crewmen (save for DS9) are humans and the most important planet in the Federation is Earth. Sounds quite egocentric to me.

 

And Galactron, I completely agree with your post. Excellent comments there.

(Bushido) But without honor, a war will quickly downgrade into brutual savagery! (/Bushido)

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And isn't that really what war is? No matter how noble the ideals and the cause for fighting, in the end grandscale battles quickly degenerate into brutal savagery on the personal level. Can't recall how exactly the quote went or where I got it from, but it has been said that war brings out the worst of man.

 

Honor in battle is a very noble ideology but sadly not always possible. I mean if you want to achieve victory in a war then you must at times put aside your feelings. War is savage and war is bloody.

 

(...)

 

At times one must put aside honor and one's ideals if you want to win a war.

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Agreed...and no, I don't agree.  :tflaugh

 

On a small scale, such as the beastwars, or in a duel, honor can be important and can be maintained. But even then... If you're in a fight for your life, your honor is the last thing you think about. You're at war: either you kill your opponent, or he kills you (and if not now, then maybe later). Don't know how many of you have been in a fight (real or sports), but in the heat of battle with adrenaline burning in your veins, you don't give your enemy a chance to recover or to mount an attack, because if he does...all your honor won't save you. (The Samurai's first strike was at the head or hand. They didn't try to disarm their opponent by using sword tricks to disarm him, no they either cut of his hand or slashed open his head. All this while wearing impressive armor and shouting loudly to distract him so they could make the kill.)

 

But indeed, as Hornet stated, if this goes on too long or too far, then both sides will descent into evil and neither will win but they will utterly destroy each other. Both physically and morally. With the decepticons this control is attained by the rule of might: if your overly savage behaviour is against the will of the leader, then he will destroy you.

 

The Autobots need something else. Just talking about the G1 Autobots, if you look at their bios (either techspec card, marvel's TF universe or the recent DW MTMTE), you'll find that the Autobots hold a wild variety of characters and opinions. Some are outright pacifists, others fight because they realise they have no choice, some fight out of conviction that this really is a fight between good & evil, there are those who fight because they like the action and the thrill, and there are even a few who are so aggresive that the line between Autobot-Decepticon is a slim one.

 

In an army which such varied attitudes, the Autobot leader must portray the right attitude. In Prime's words (Marvel US#76)  "Whatever the provocation, whatever the circumstances, the foes we fight are still living being. Autobots kill only as a last option and then only to save other lives! Mercy and compassion are what sets us apart from those we fight!"

 

The leader has the job to keep this army together and to keep everybody happy. When Grimlock first became the leader in the comics, many Autobots grew unhappy and started to either desert or aid those who had deserted. So OP isn't just the leader, he's also for many the guiding light for which morals to uphold.

 

And so we come back to the topic. Prime needs to be a great soldier, but at the same time a symbol of morality. And how very well is he doing this is he uses his supermode to destroy a weaker foe? Or when there's the chance for a one-on-one fight/duel, he often uses allies to gain the advantage (either by combining or just might of numbers).

 

Answer: he doesn't.

 

He's not a bully, but he's not the noble (close to perfect) leader they say he is, or many feel he is. He's flawed and in some ways even a hypocrite.

 

(As for the Dinobots. In the cartoon OP thought so lowly of them that when all the Autobots leave Earth after a trial they completely forgot to bring the Dinobots along.)

 

 

the Transformers franchise is a very Americanized franchise with the red, white and blue fonts, the Autobots resembling American Ideology of Autobot Individual Freedom versus the Comunist Ideology of Decepticon rule by one powerfull Ruler over a serving unified mass. 

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Funny thing that. Actually, both sides display a very American attitude towards leadership. Bot the Decepticons and  the Autobots have a single leader. With the deceps that one is the absolute master (like a fascist government), while the Autobot leader is based on freedom and choice, while at the same time the Autobot council is portrayed as shortsighted and restrictive of the great leader. (But this is becoming too political.  :tfevil )

Interesting approach and it makes sense.

 

However looking at it from a Klingon stand point I would say that there is little honor in fighting an enemy who is in a giant battlesuit.

 

Honor is best gained up close and personal so you can jab your knife in your opponents chest and feel the life draining from his body.

 

Of course the less you relie on machines and weapons to achieve your goal, the more honor you gain.

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like i said, without the mobile suits, the armies would have to be a lot bigger. just five mobile suits and a small squadron could hold a small city. without the suits, the occupying force would have to be a lot bigger and the more soldiers there are, the less opportunities there are for achieving individual glory and honor.

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Pfffttt Gundams are only tougher becuse they are made out of Gundamian and moast the enemys are made out of titanium.

Last night I watched Star Trek First Contact again and something occurred to me.

 

It does not matter how tough one is because when the Borg hail you with their "We are the Borg, Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distintives to our own. Your culture will adapt to disservice us. Resistance is futile" you will crap your pants or at least start to sweat heavily which will affect your battle performance.

 

It was just a movie but the idea of a race like the Borg scares the Blot out of me.

I think we can all come to the agreement that Optimus Prime, no matter what incarnation, is pointless.

I think we can all come to the agreement that Optimus Prime, no matter what incarnation, is pointless.

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You have to count me out on that one. Definatly not pointless to me.

You do know that it's a toy, right?

You do know that it's a toy, right?

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Take any fictional character and look at what they are.

 

How Prime was handled by writers in all mediums varied hugely, but the starting point was always the same, he was a hero, a natural leader, a wiseman.

 

To write what Prime would do in a situation, they wrote what they believed a hero, a leader, a wiseman would do.

And to do that they had to have an idea of what a hero/leader/wiseman was to them or would be to children.

Optimus Prime is the end result of multiple writer's opinions on what a hero etc is, or should be.

 

He's an ideal with a face attached.

 

However without one contrinuity to focus and develop the character, only the ideals survive, which is why so many (mainly those who got exposure only to mediums with little character development) seem to worship him or see him as near perfect and current incarnations of Prime seem to be more and more messiah like.

You do know that it's a toy, right?

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Take any fictional character and look at what they are.

 

How Prime was handled by writers in all mediums varied hugely, but the starting point was always the same, he was a hero, a natural leader, a wiseman.

 

To write what Prime would do in a situation, they wrote what they believed a hero, a leader, a wiseman would do.

And to do that they had to have an idea of what a hero/leader/wiseman was to them or would be to children.

Optimus Prime is the end result of multiple writer's opinions on what a hero etc is, or should be.

 

He's an ideal with a face attached.

 

However without one contrinuity to focus and develop the character, only the ideals survive, which is why so many (mainly those who got exposure only to mediums with little character development) seem to worship him or see him as near perfect and current incarnations of Prime seem to be more and more messiah like.

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Yeah, I agree with you totally there. Then again, what you've described comes dangerously close to having some nutjobs out there worshipping Optimus Prime as a god (but I think it's already got to that point, unfortunately :(  ). At the same time,  there's nothing stopping anybody from writing him as a villain. In the end, it's a chunk of plastic that gets molded to whatever the heck you want it to be.

You do know that it's a toy, right?

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In that case my world lo longer makes sense.  ...Yeah I know its just a toy. I am refering to the Toy Franchise if its connected or resembling to the g1 story or using g1 story elements and names.

 

Now having said that, one of my favorite TF lines is the euro G1 Turbomasters and Predators line. No megatron or Prime. But their leaders Skyquake and Thunderclash filled their shues prity good.

If you leave out Prime, you have to leave out every other known character like hotshot,brawn... .Everything has to be new. I would not be oposed to that, but the moment you have a known name/concept in the midst, it needs a Prime or a Megatron.

And thats why I think Prime is not pointless. At least not with every seen TF story line.