Interesting approach and it makes sense.

 

However looking at it from a Klingon stand point I would say that there is little honor in fighting an enemy who is in a giant battlesuit.

 

Honor is best gained up close and personal so you can jab your knife in your opponents chest and feel the life draining from his body.

 

Of course the less you relie on machines and weapons to achieve your goal, the more honor you gain.

 

I recall when Dinobot went to fight his clone, he soon discovered it could not transform so fighting him in robot mode would be quite unfair. So he changed into beast mode to even the odds.

 

Sure, he could have just stayed clear and shot the clone with his eye beams but where is the honor in that.

 

And in the very first episode of Beast Wars (Ok, second but it was a two-parter.) Dinobot and Optimus Primal duked it out. Primal slipped and fell (and he probably could have flown to safety) but Dinobot actually rescued him seeing he did not feel it was honorable to take advantage of a situation like that.

 

So in that respect I do not think the people in Gundam mechs are very honorable.

 

As for glory is not really connected to honor. Glory can be achieved simply by winning battles. If your society does not care about honor then a breach of honor to stab an opponent in the back and destroy him would be a glorious victory.

 

People who fight with honor can be a liability in battle as they may disgerard tactical advantages (which could mean an easy victory) for the sake of a fair fight which they could lose. (See Dinobot vs clone example.)

 

Glory seekers are pretty much always a liability in battle as they will do anything in their power to win a glorious battle. They will, for instance, take on superior numbers all by themselves instead of calling for backup which will end up getting them killed.

 

And seeing how in war, every solider counts one must teach them to put aside quests for honor and glory if possible. Honor and glory are nice and all that but what are they worth if you(r side) lose(s) the battle in the end?

 

Edit: Xbob why do you think Optimus Prime is a hypocrite?"

 

All I can say right now (without knowing your reason why you feel thusly) is that the G1 show was targeted towards kids and that it often was poorly written indeed. The fact that it was written by many different writers (all of whom probably had different idea's) did not help much. Heck, it probably made things a lot worse.

 

I think that such an attribute makes him more human as a lot of humans are like that. Many people say one thing and when push comes to shove do the opposite thing.

 

I mean many people complain about pollution but still use their car excessively.

IMHO Chilvery exists in Gundam

They do have similarities to knights so the anolagy is appropriate.

 

The main thing to consider is that for evey civilization/culture honor is something different. One should also expect one's enemy to hold different standards than yourself. You might not shoot him in the back but do not count on being given the same courtesy.

Interesting approach and it makes sense.

 

However looking at it from a Klingon stand point I would say that there is little honor in fighting an enemy who is in a giant battlesuit.

 

Honor is best gained up close and personal so you can jab your knife in your opponents chest and feel the life draining from his body.

 

Of course the less you relie on machines and weapons to achieve your goal, the more honor you gain.

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like i said, without the mobile suits, the armies would have to be a lot bigger. just five mobile suits and a small squadron could hold a small city. without the suits, the occupying force would have to be a lot bigger and the more soldiers there are, the less opportunities there are for achieving individual glory and honor.

One could also make it a lot simpler. Substitute wars for Robot Wars competitions.

 

When two countries have an issue they just challenge eachother to build a robot which will them compete with the robot of the other nation. Whomever loses the fight surrenders to the victor.  :tftongue

 

(Of course that would be a hard fight as the British are very advanced in that area.  :thumb )

 

But conquest is always easier than control. I have never seen Gundam but I will assume they are roughly as powerful as Transformers but then with human pilots. If say a force of 5 Gundams tries to establish control over a town then they would need to be on constant alert.

 

A guerrila strike could have devastating effects and you know what they say, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Large vehicles work poorly in town as well. During World War 2, tank commanders were also instructed to stay out of them.

A guerrila strike could have devastating effects and you know what they say, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Large vehicles work poorly in town as well. During World War 2, tank commanders were also instructed to stay out of them.

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in the Gundam animies, the only thing that can destroy a mobile suit is another mobile suit so they're virtually indestructible.

you must consider about this things:

in the anime megatron/galvatron cant merge, but prime can. if prime dont merge then fight, who can interest in jetfire/omega/overload? so that only for advertisement.

lead you to buy them

"Ergo"?  Somebody thinks quoting a word made popular by a certain sci-fi movie, yet otherwise never used in contemporary North American speech, makes them sound smarter.

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People used words like ergo long before Hollywood, even in North America, because some people actually had a decent eductaion or are well read.

 

And yes I know that sounds arrogant and condescending, but no more than the comment you made.

At times one must put aside honor and one's ideals if you want to win a war.

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That's not actually strictly true.

 

Your tactic may work for a videogame, but reality is a lot more complex and many empires have tried that approach and have crumbled from within.

 

After all, Hitler did what you say Churchill considered and wiped what he saw as an enemy off the map.

That may have been easier but in the end played a huge part in his downfall.

Shall I try to pull this back on topic?

 

What Prime has become is really a product of bad writing. Perosonally I feel that GF Prime is not this cruel hyprocrite as many people say. It seems to me that, like most anime that makes up the norm, being (lack of a better word) cruel to the "comic-relief" characters (Landbullet and Ransack) is used for just that, comic-relief. However, with GF, what did not happen which is much unlike that of other anime, Prime's supermode-pummels were too over-the-top. He actually used each of those attacks at one point with the intent to kill, which is a big NO if you're trying to create a said- ultimate hero. Now, why this was done is obvious, as said before, it's a marketing thing. Now, I really didn't give it much thought, since whenever Landbullet and Ransack were hit, they merely flew into the sky (well, wall) and dissapeared with a star, signifying comic-relief.

 

Well, in the end, this character Optimus Prime is really what you think he is in the end. I mean really, if a character were this cruel hypocrite, would it stop you from purchasing it if the fig was unimaginably cool?

I haven't been here for awhile.

 

I think I have to defend Optimus Prime here. A Bully is someone who herasses someone out of pleasure regularly. Prime does not fit into that category. Being tough to an agressor/attacker(the Deceptions) is how one usualy fights if one wants to win. Since we are partialy comparing it to the actual world, according to 99% of Self Defense Instructors and War historians, fighting is not about honor but survival. Anything goes since its not a sport. Megatron is abit more powerfull than prime, and thats what makes Villains more effective. So Prime has to find ways to keep up. 

If we talk about Honor in fights, Okinawan history and European peasant wars would say that Knightly Chivaraly and the Samurai Code is nothing more than bull, unless Transufomah! and slaughter of weak villagers and peasants is considered honorable. Usualy if someone sais they fight honorable, they think its a macho game and nerver where in a fight, or they just simply lie. Both cases, non-honerable.

If people want the Transformers to fight fair, then Prime and Megatron have to bare-knuckle box for points in a ring, since even Weapons where made for having an edge over the oponent.

 

As for "Freedom for all sentient beings", I don't think Prime has ever realy violated that Law if I recall. If he did, its certainly not a regulaity. As for non-sentients, what about them? Its not part of the Autobot Ideology. After all, we don't give pets the right to vote.

The Autobots main function is to preserve Freedom and Peace. They hold the Decepticons in check. Thats their main function, and I don't see anything wrong with that. So of course what they do will be a response of what the Decepticons do. In other words, if there are no criminals, then the cops won't have to do squat.

 

Granted, the Transformers franchise is a very Americanized franchise with the red, white and blue fonts, the Autobots resembling American Ideology of Autobot Individual Freedom versus the Comunist Ideology of Decepticon rule by one powerfull Ruler over a serving unified mass.  And as someone who originaly is from europe, I like that American flavor.  It makes great entertainment. Has anyone ever watched a European cartoon? They suck. And most of the japanese anime is way to cheesy. So I take the steriotypical Americanized catoons anyday.

 

As for depth, the G1 series was made for kids, and as for that it did a good job. Its not "Goethes Faust". Its not supose to be 4th year university material. Plus the G1 movie was fairly mature for a cartoon. And I still prefer the original g1 show over any other Tv re-incarnation. The Japanese anime style RID-Cyberetron is incredibly cheesy and lame. Why have those human characters in there with all that script? They are annoying, plus the story lines are somewhat mediocre. G1 was very straight forward but solid. Collect enough energon on earth to Win the War on Cybertron while protecting the humans. Now the new shows deal with the relationships of the kids with the Robots and Cyberkeys with fight scenes that don't realy show enough punches or kicks. Very disapointing. Not to mention since Armada the animation looks like moving toys from Playschool.

Beast Wars-Beast machines was fairly well done since it was made up here in Canada and was not cheesy at all. Plus the CG animation was way superior. Mainframe is one of the best CG companies. To bad it was not a g1 revival. Otherwhise it would have been the perfect Transformers Show.

 

To conclude, Prime being a Bully. I don't think so.  :tflaugh