I dunno, with the complexity of the movie tfs, there might be room for some sort of womb withing the females body, but i agree they wouldnt be able to develop much there at all. Tho i would imagine the "fetus" would need to reach a certain point of development before being transferred to any sort of pod, unless these are indeed eggs

 

Well how can you really classify a male or female? They do not really follow the human rules of reproduction.

Yep, Transformer babies. Here are two pages from Victory #10 which shows the wives, sisters, and many, many small children of the Decepticons... Here's a screen cap from the '86 movie showing children form Lithone (another Transformer race)... And here's a link to a transcribed copy of The Story of Wheelie, The Wild Boy of Quintesson, which establishes Wheelie as haveing had a mother and father...

Hmm, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but I'm not sure how authoritative the Victory manga and a Big Looker Book are when it comes to canon. Now, the Lithone do, indeed, appear to have children; however, it is only our conjecture that they are part of the Transformer race, and not just one of the cartoon's other robot species. (Admittedly, the comic adaptation had them transforming; however, the adaptation was also based on an earlier version of the movie script which notably removed the Lithonian's transforming capabilities.)

 

Still, absolutely fascinating stuff!

Well, the manga was written by the original author of the Headmasters and Supergod Masterforce cartoons, and was his original plan for the Victory cartoon as well. It's also part of official Japanese canon, as are all of their mangas, and thus fully sanctioned by Takara. The children's books too are a part of Hasbro's canon since it was officially sanctioned by them. Thus, both are canon since they were both officially sanctioned by either Hasbro or Takara. The children's book may be a very obscure source, but it's still canon. The Headmasters cartoon also established Wheelie as a child, as did the 86 movie, where he is specifically called a "boy". As for the Lithonians, they may or may not be genetically related to Cybertronians, but they are a "Transformer" race.

 

Not really, it isn't. Transformer should be more accurately classified as "mechanoids", they're non-organic, "machine" based life. In canon, Transforers are shown to be able to maintain internal homeostasis and also adapt and evolve over time. As I'll explain further later.

Hmm? I think we actually agree - the Transformers definitely constitute a form of life, mechanoid life if you will. :) I'm simply saying that 'robotic organism' is an oxymoron - a robot, by (loosely agreed) definition lacks homeostasis. When a robot does gain full homeostatic potential, it stops being a robot and becomes life... if that makes sense :)

I don't disagree, though in the context of Prime's statement, he's referring to their being "mechanical" life forms rather than organic. They look like "robots", so he uses the term as a way to convey their physiology in a way Sam and Mikela would understand. That's the way I interpret it. They're not "robots", but rather "robotic" in physiology.

 

Transformer bodies are made up of self-replicating nano-machine cells. According to the Production designer on the special features disk for the first movie, he says, "Every molecule, every cell, is a machine unto itself.". In the original movie itself, Maggie postulates that the "virus" that infected the system was a "DNA-based computer". When the soldiers are examining Scorponok's tail, the one soldier tells Lennox that, "It's some kind of self-regenerating molecular armor." According to MtMTE#8, Cybertronians have what's referred to as "regenerative ciruitry" (the afore-mentioned nanite cellular structure) which maintains their homeostais and repairs any injury or illness they suffer. Thus, Transformers are self-maintaining, which is the very definition of "homeostasis". They have also been shown to evolve over time individually and as a species through genetic adaptation and in response to their environment. In fact, I would have to say that they are one of the most adaptable forms of life out there. Thus, they meet all seven criteria for life�€â€homeostasis, organized cellular structure, growth, adaptation and evolution, response to stimuli, metabolism, and reproduction. Established canon from as early as Marvel G1 establishes that Transformers have a genetic code. They have a form of DNA analog. Simon Furman calls it CNA (Cyber-Nucleic Acid) in the IDW comics. According to DW's MtMtE #8, as well as Beast Wars, protoforms (the basic pre-formatted form of a Cybertronian) is made up of self-replicating nanites contained within stasis pods filled with nutrient gel.

On the subject of "DNA-based computer"... that's one of my least-favourite lines in the movie. I can only assume that Orci and Kurtzman have a distinct lack of understanding as to what DNA is, as opposed to what it does.

 

I do find the idea of the Transformers being essentially a nanite-based life-form rather interesting, and it is a very convenient explanation for their many fantastical elements (not least of which, being able to transform.) I'd love to see a really in-depth analysis of how the nanites self-organize into specific structures - the 'science of Transformers', if you will.

 

Like I said, it's definitely something I'd like to think about for a while. :)

I know what you mean. I have done a lot of thinking and research on the matter. There are a number of websites which discuss the theories on nanotechnology. It is rather fascinating.

 

Exactly. Even real-world science theorizes that it is theoretically possible to develop self-replicating nano-machines which could form the building-block of machine-based life which could reproduce just as any organic life form does, be it sexually or asexually. The Transformers are the ultimate culmination of that. Their entire bodies are made up of such machine-based cells which are capable of regeneration through cellular division. And, Marvel (the only continuity where female Transformers did not exist at all) showed us in G2 that Transformers were capable of reproducing asexually in that universe through the cellular division process of budding. If, in that one universe where transformers were indeed sexless, they could reproduce asexually, there is really no reason to conclude that they can't reproduce sexually in some manner in those realities where they are divided into two distinct sexes, especially when there is clear evidence of courtship and mating behavior, including marriage, as well as families consisting of mothers, fathers, and offspring. Contrary to popular opinion, being "robotic" is not a prohibiting factor. There are too many benefits to procreation over construction to begin with.

 

If Transformers were indeed limited to constructing built bodies or factory-made protoforms, and imbuing them with sparks, then they would be in very deep trouble if any of the necessary resources needed were lost. Constructed bodies, and protoforms require a lot of resources. You need factories to build the stasis pods, manufature the nutrient gel, and grow the nanites, you'd need parts, and facilities to store the pods, you need a source of Sparks, be it the Matrix, Vector Sigma, the All Spark, a prohibitive amount of Energon, etc. If any of those resources was missing, they couldn't create new life. Procreation solves those problems because it is far less resource intensive.

 

In the case of sexual reproduction, it simply requires a male and female to mate, and (in the case of internal gestation) enough food to sustain the female and provide the raw nutrients needed for the offspring to develop during gestation, namely metals, silicon, energon, etc that the female can consume. Or, in the case of "egg laying", enough raw "food" within the "egg pod" to sustain the developing offspring "yoke" until it hatches. The only real benefit constructing bodies has over natural procreation and gestation is that by buildigna pody or using a factory-made protoform, you can create a fully grown adult instantly. There's no need for the offspring to grow from infancy to adulthood. Babies are samall, underdeveloped and basivally helpless only because there isn't enough room within a female's body for the egg or fetus to grow to full size within her body and then pass through the birth canal. It's purely a matter of space. Eggs have to be small enough to be laid and babies have to be small enough to fit through the birth canal. Thus, they have to be small and underdeveloped at "birth". Though, growing up from infancy to adulthood does have its advantages too, such as time to develop skills and understanding of cultures and nuances of life. If you need soldiers quickly, the protoforms and built bodies imbued with a Spark are definitely advantageous, however resource intensive. But, if you simply want a family or lack resources, then normal procreation is definitely more advantageous for the species as a whole because, while it takes significantly longer for the offspring to develop and grow to adulthood, it requres far fewer respources and gives the offspring time to develop and learn. And ultimately, procreation be it sexual or asexual is one of the key necessary factors which separates life from non-life. Without that inherent ability, technically, they wouldn't even be life.

 

In the case of the movie, it appears that the Hatchlings didn't have enough nutrients (namely the energon) to develop within their egg pods properly and sustain them.

That's a lot of food for thought!

 

If we assume that the Transformers are purely mechanical, then there's not a whole lot they can do in the way of reproduction - one generation building the next would essentially be the only way to go.

 

If we assume that they are nanite-based lifeforms however, then the sky is the limit. They could reproduce by way of fission, budding, even potentially something as simple as shedding a single cell. Genetic mingling would not have to be limited to two partners - a single Transformer could try improving on their own blueprint, or multiple Transformers could have 'design input'.

Well, they are also very complex life, and, at least in the fictions, there are diseases which afflict cybernetic life forms, such as Cosmic Rust and Scraplets, to name a few. Asexual reproduction is fine for very simple life forms, primarily single-celled organisms, but it isn't very effective for complex life forms. That's because with single-celled organisms, they can adapt simply through genetic mutation within that single cell, thus becoming a new strain with defenses against that particular disease. However, with complex life, that doesn't work too well. While a few cells might spontaneously mutate, that usually is detrimental to the organism as a whole, and without the genetic diversity provided by combining genes from at least two parental sources, it leaves the whole species vulnerable to a disease which could wipe them all out because they're all genetically identical. It's only through combining two different parental sources of genetic data that the species has the necessary genetic diversity to safeguard the species as a whole so that any plague would only kill off some of them, not the whole species.

 

In Marvel, They were capable of reproducing asexually through budding, but the process had an unexpected and very negative byproduct. That byproduct became the Swarm.

As for not being limited to two partners, if it were not already established that they were divided into two distinct sexes, than that would certainly be possible. However, canon does show that they are specifically divided into male and female, and when they do form bonds, it is between a single male and single female, and any offspring are the result of such unions. We never see children produced through combinations of two males, two females, or more partners than a male/female pairing. With other types of cybernetic life, it is quite possible though. With Transformers though, I would definitely conclude that any pairings are limited to one male and one female.

I dunno, with the complexity of the movie tfs, there might be room for some sort of womb withing the females body, but i agree they wouldnt be able to develop much there at all. Tho i would imagine the "fetus" would need to reach a certain point of development before being transferred to any sort of pod, unless these are indeed eggs

 

Regardless of the continuity, they wouldn't have much room, and thus any offspring would be very small in relation to their mother. In the movie-verse, it's possible that the offspring might develop as much as marsupial offspring do before moving to their mother's pouch. On the other hand, they could indeed lay eggs. It could also depend upon the specific species of Cybertronian. If you look at them, there are humanoid Cybertronians, distinctly non-humanoid Cybertyronians, and even Cybertronian animals such as Scorponok and Ravage. Scorponok's species would very likely be egg layers. Ravage's probably wouldn't be. Where Cybertronians like Arcee and her sisters fall is up for debate because while they certainly look humaoid from the waist up, they lower bodies from the waist down are distinctly non-humanoid. Although, According to the fiction, and 2007 toy, Arcee did originally have a fully humanoid form making it likely that her current form is a result of adaptations needed to allow her to merge with her sisters (as her toy is supposed to be capable of, and was originally planned for her movie incarnation). Thus, whether they're egg layers, similar to marsupials, or can fully gestate their young within the "womb", or it varies from species to species, is certainly up for debate. At least some of them appear to be either egg layers or similar to Marcupials given the Decepticon "hatchlings". I would lean more towards egg layers though in their case.

so basically.. being gay.. is not even natural in the transformer world.

 

humans are weird.

 

 

 

and yes, in regards to the movie - i think bay has stolen as much as he can from Aliens... including hatchlings and egg laying.

Could there be any correlation between how we saw the protoforms develop in :animated and what we're seeing in movie-verse? Both seem to reside in pods. Now where the TF:A protoforms remain in stasis until a spark is introduced (or in Sari's case, an organic element) to activate life, the movie protoforms seem to be gestating until they are removed & we're led to believe that energon must be introduced at that point to kickstart their spark.

 

I don't know...I saw TF:A (before it was over) playing off some of the movie-verse...so I wonder if there might have been any movie play off of the most recent animated series? Well, perhaps that was too recent... :shrug

I dunno, with the complexity of the movie tfs, there might be room for some sort of womb withing the females body, but i agree they wouldnt be able to develop much there at all. Tho i would imagine the "fetus" would need to reach a certain point of development before being transferred to any sort of pod, unless these are indeed eggs

 

Well how can you really classify a male or female? They do not really follow the human rules of reproduction.

How do we classifiy male and female in insects, fish, reptiles, birds, arachnids, cephelopods, plants, etc. Sexualreproduction isn't limited to humans, and the "rules", while similar, aren't exactly the same. The only "rule" that establishes the sex is the definitiln of male and female. Those definitions are as follows:

 

1male

Pronunciation:

\ˈmÄl\

Function:

noun

Etymology:

Middle English, from Anglo-French masle, male, adjective & noun, from Latin masculus — more at masculine

Date:

14th century

1 a: a male person : a man or a boy b: an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female

2: a staminate plant—Webster's online Dictionary: male

 

2female

Function:

noun

Etymology:

Middle English, alteration of femel, femelle, from Anglo-French & Medieval Latin; Anglo-French femele, from Medieval Latin femella, from Latin, girl, diminutive of femina

Date:

14th century

1 a: a female person : a woman or a girl b: an individual that bears young or produces large usually immobile gametes (as eggs) that are fertilized by small usually motile gametes of a male

2: a pistillate plant—Websters Online Dictionary: female

 

it doesn't matter if they copulate as humans, other mammals, reptiles, birds, and certain insects and fish do, or some other method of internal or external fertilization. The only factor is one fertilizes, the other is fertilized. The mechanics of fertilization are moot.

 

On top of that, as I said before, they do specifically exhibit distinctly physical sexual dimorphism between males and females. If you look at the sisters, they look female. they have distinctly female physical characteristics. If you look at Bumblebee, Sideswipe, Ironhide, Optimus Prime, etc. they have very distinctly male physical characteristics. So there is definite sexual dimorphism there. That's how you can tell.

 

Secondly, who is to say they don't follow "human rules" of reproduction. As I've already shown in evidence, in numerous continuities they do indeed appear to be quite capable of following the "human rules" of reproduction and child rearing. This includes how they go about choosing a mate and join in pair bonding (they marry), as well as having children. Their exact method of mating is a mystery, and thus open to the imagination, but they do have a lot of similarities to humans in regards to courtship and raising of their offspring in some continuities.

so basically.. being gay.. is not even natural in the transformer world.

 

humans are weird.

 

 

 

and yes, in regards to the movie - i think bay has stolen as much as he can from Aliens... including hatchlings and egg laying.

Pretty much. While some species of life do sometimes engage in a certain amount of "homosexual" behavior, only humans ever engage in exclusively homosexual behavior, such as the bonobos. all others where this behavior is exhibited, actually engage in bi-sexual behavior. Even those individuals of those species that prefer their own sex as primary partners will mate with the opposite sex in order to procreate. The drive to pass on ones genes is too powerful. It is only in humans where we see individuals who will completely eschew the opposite sex in favor of the same sex. In no other species is exclusively homosexual behavior exhibited to my knowledge. Bi-sexual behavior? yes. Exclusively homosexual behavior? No. That's unique to humanity.

I also wanted to point out this.

I always saw the artificial means of creation as necessary by-products of the war and the near extinction of females in the g1 toon. They had to continue somehow. We never really see life before the war. I imagine there was much more sexual reproduction before the war. Much more time for raising children. When you need front line troops, of course you are gonna build new adults if you have the means rather than have babies

I also wanted to point out this.

I always saw the artificial means of creation as necessary by-products of the war and the near extinction of females in the g1 toon. They had to continue somehow. We never really see life before the war. I imagine there was much more sexual reproduction before the war. Much more time for raising children. When you need front line troops, of course you are gonna build new adults if you have the means rather than have babies

That's how I saw it as well. Though I wouldn't say female Cybertronians went extinct, but the Decepticons certainly targeted the females within the Autobot ranks, those who had definite Autobot affiliation, and they were certainly not above atrocities against neutrals. However, as we see in Victory, they certainly kept their own females, and in some cases, females did become part of the Decepticon forces. Nor do the Autobots at least treat females as anything unusual. Decepticons simply treat females as a whole as weak. And, certainly by Supergod Masterforce, females were certainly more plentiful. In DW, the apparent lack of females in modern times wasn't the work of the Decepticons, but rather the Quintessons, who it appears absconded with all of the females during the Great Shutdown and enslaved them, turning some into agents to use against Cybertron. Prior to that time, females were certainly plentiful. In some other continuites, such as the UT continuity, there is a much greater parity between males and females. Thus, while we only see a few female characters, they're treated as nothing out of the ordinary in most continuities. they're just accepted as normal.

Thus, while we only see a few female characters, they're treated as nothing out of the ordinary in most continuities. they're just accepted as normal.

 

Exactly-the arcee bikes in the film are there and nothing is treated as special about the fact they are girls.