Oh, ok, Tramp. So if you don't force your opinions down everyone's throats, then explain WHY the hell you feel you need to post the same argument over and over and over again ad nauseum when you're CLEARLY not converting anyone to your point of view? I'm not forcing anything down anyone's throat. You're the troll who argues with everyone when they don't agree with you. You're the one who keeps getting people's topics locked.

 

It's funny how you contradicted yourself too. You're telling me not to insult deviantArt when it's my opinion that for the most part it sucks. Yeah, there's some talented artists on there, but there's a lot of crap there too.

 

Why don't you pull your damn head in and stop talking down to people with that stupid bolding crap you do? (And DO NOT tell me I'm "the only one talking down to people" when that's your whole posting style.)

Sorry to interrupt, but a couple of things caught my eye:

 

Except that we see Transformer babies in canon.

Transformer babies? In canon? I don't remember this. :)

If you could jog my memory, I would be very grateful.

 

Secondly, Transformers are not just robots... Canon specifically states that Transformers are life forms. They are not ordinary robots. As Optimus said in the first movie, "We are autonomous robotic organisms from the planet Cybertron." They're made up of self-replicating cells. They have DNA. Ordinary Earth robots don't have that.

I understand what you are saying and actually pretty-much agree with it, but I wanted to clarify a few things.

 

Transformers do indeed meet the criteria of a 'life form'... although 'autonomous robotic organism' doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. Life forms can be defined as capable of response, reproduction, development, and regulation. A 'robot', on the other hand, is an artificial agent - that is to say, it might be capable of responding to stimuli, or learning in certain capacities - but real adaptation and homeostasis are out. 'Robotic organism' is a contradiction in terms.

 

As for the idea of self-replicating cells... that's an interesting area. I wouldn't mind thinking about that one for a while.

 

Regarding Transformers having DNA... they don't. Not unless they've got a jar of deoxyribonucleic acid with them. :) If you mean that they have some sort of genetic system - which is what I think you meant - then that seems quite likely. If nothing else, there is substantial evolutionary benefit in keeping the vehicle and its manual together, so to speak.

 

Edit: Oh, and regarding our current robots not having a genetic system... it's actually quite possible. Like all barriers between the robots of today, and the perceived robots of tomorrow, we simply don't have the technology to bridge the gulf between the two in a practical way. We are, however, getting closer...

Sorry to interrupt, but a couple of things caught my eye:

 

Except that we see Transformer babies in canon.

Transformer babies? In canon? I don't remember this. :)

If you could jog my memory, I would be very grateful.

 

Yep, Transformer babies. Here are two pages from Victory #10 which shows the wives, sisters, and many, many small children of the Decepticons:

 

 

Here's a screen cap from the '86 movie showing children form Lithone (another Transformer race):

 

And here's alink to a transcribed copy of The Story of Wheelie, The Wild Boy of Quintesson, which establishes Wheelie as haveing had a mother and father: Wheelie, The Wild Boy of Quintesson

 

Secondly, Transformers are not just robots... Canon specifically states that Transformers are life forms. They are not ordinary robots. As Optimus said in the first movie, "We are autonomous robotic organisms from the planet Cybertron." They're made up of self-replicating cells. They have DNA. Ordinary Earth robots don't have that.

I understand what you are saying and actually pretty-much agree with it, but I wanted to clarify a few things.

 

Transformers do indeed meet the criteria of a 'life form'... although 'autonomous robotic organism' doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. Life forms can be defined as capable of response, reproduction, development, and regulation. A 'robot', on the other hand, is an artificial agent - that is to say, it might be capable of responding to stimuli, or learning in certain capacities - but real adaptation and homeostasis are out. 'Robotic organism' is a contradiction in terms.

Not really, it isn't. Transformer should be more accurately classified as "mechanoids", they're non-organic, "machine" based life. In canon, Transforers are shown to be able to maintain internal homeostasis and also adapt and evolve over time. As I'll explain further later.

 

As for the idea of self-replicating cells... that's an interesting area. I wouldn't mind thinking about that one for a while.

 

Regarding Transformers having DNA... they don't. Not unless they've got a jar of deoxyribonucleic acid with them. :) If you mean that they have some sort of genetic system - which is what I think you meant - then that seems quite likely. If nothing else, there is substantial evolutionary benefit in keeping the vehicle and its manual together, so to speak.

Transformer bodies are made up of self-replicating nano-machine cells. According to the Production designer on the special features disk for the first movie, he says, "Every molecule, every cell, is a machine unto itself.". In the original movie itself, Maggie postulates that the "virus" that infected the system was a "DNA-based computer". When the soldiers are examining Scorponok's tail, the one soldier tells Lennox that, "It's some kind of self-regenerating molecular armor." According to MtMTE#8, Cybertronians have what's referred to as "regenerative ciruitry" (the afore-mentioned nanite cellular structure) which maintains their homeostais and repairs any injury or illness they suffer. Thus, Transformers are self-maintaining, which is the very definition of "homeostasis". They have also been shown to evolve over time individually and as a species through genetic adaptation and in response to their environment. In fact, I would have to say that they are one of the most adaptable forms of life out there. Thus, they meet all seven criteria for life—homeostasis, organized cellular structure, growth, adaptation and evolution, response to stimuli, metabolism, and reproduction. Established canon from as early as Marvel G1 establishes that Transformers have a genetic code. They have a form of DNA analog. Simon Furman calls it CNA (Cyber-Nucleic Acid) in the IDW comics. According to DW's MtMtE #8, as well as Beast Wars, protoforms (the basic pre-formatted form of a Cybertronian) is made up of self-replicating nanites contained within stasis pods filled with nutrient gel.

 

Edit: Oh, and regarding our current robots not having a genetic system... it's actually quite possible. Like all barriers between the robots of today, and the perceived robots of tomorrow, we simply don't have the technology to bridge the gulf between the two in a practical way. We are, however, getting closer...

Exactly. Even real-world science theorizes that it is theoretically possible to develop self-replicating nano-machines which could form the building-block of machine-based life which could reproduce just as any organic life form does, be it sexually or asexually. The Transformers are the ultimate culmination of that. Their entire bodies are made up of such machine-based cells which are capable of regeneration through cellular division. And, Marvel (the only continuity where female Transformers did not exist at all) showed us in G2 that Transformers were capable of reproducing asexually in that universe through the cellular division process of budding. If, in that one universe where transformers were indeed sexless, they could reproduce asexually, there is really no reason to conclude that they can't reproduce sexually in some manner in those realities where they are divided into two distinct sexes, especially when there is clear evidence of courtship and mating behavior, including marriage, as well as families consisting of mothers, fathers, and offspring. Contrary to popular opinion, being "robotic" is not a prohibiting factor. There are too many benefits to procreation over construction to begin with.

 

If Transformers were indeed limited to constructing built bodies or factory-made protoforms, and imbuing them with sparks, then they would be in very deep trouble if any of the necessary resources needed were lost. Constructed bodies, and protoforms require a lot of resources. You need factories to build the stasis pods, manufature the nutrient gel, and grow the nanites, you'd need parts, and facilities to store the pods, you need a source of Sparks, be it the Matrix, Vector Sigma, the All Spark, a prohibitive amount of Energon, etc. If any of those resources was missing, they couldn't create new life. Procreation solves those problems because it is far less resource intensive.

 

In the case of sexual reproduction, it simply requires a male and female to mate, and (in the case of internal gestation) enough food to sustain the female and provide the raw nutrients needed for the offspring to develop during gestation, namely metals, silicon, energon, etc that the female can consume. Or, in the case of "egg laying", enough raw "food" within the "egg pod" to sustain the developing offspring—a "yoke"—until it hatches. ZThe only real benefit constructing bodies has over natural procreation and gestation is that by buildigna pody or using a factory-made protoform, you can create a fully grown adult instantly. There's no need for the offspring to grow from infancy to adulthood. Babies are samall, underdeveloped and basivally helpless only because there isn't enough room within a female's body for the egg or fetus to grow to full size within her body and then pass through the birth canal. It's purely a matter of space. Eggs have to be small enough to be laid and babies have to be small enough to fit through the birth canal. Thus, they have to be small and underdeveloped at "birth". Though, growing up from infancy to adulthood does have its advantages too, such as time to develop skills and understanding of cultures and nuances of life. If you need soldiers quickly, the protoforms and built bodies imbued with a Spark are definitely advantageous, however resource intensive. But, if you simply want a family or lack resources, then normal procreation is definitely more advantageous for the species as a whole because, while it takes significantly longer for the offspring to develop and grow to adulthood, it requres far fewer respources and gives the offspring time to develop and learn. And ultimately, procreation—be it sexual or asexual—is one of the key necessary factors which separates life from non-life. Without that inherent ability, technically, they wouldn't even be life.

 

In the case of the movie, it appears that the Hatchlings didn't have enough nutrients (namely the energon) to develop within their egg pods properly and sustain them.

What I took from the hatchling scene was to develop a 'purpose' for the decipticons to require energon- hence the whole plot of destroying the sun.

 

Granted, I agree it added complications and they could of accomplished that same plot device by showing 'full grown' bots 'starving' to death from the lack of energon. But I think the writers were simply giving a nod to protoforms.

Ok, just read alot, this is what I got from all of this, based on comments here and what I have seen personally.

 

TImeline:

 

17,000 years ago, the Primes arrive on Earth, build the machine, The Fallen betrays the brothers.

 

Between this and the date below, Megs and Prime are co-leaders of Cybertron, and Meg is contacted by the Fallen.

10,000 years ago, the great war is in full swing, the cube is launched, it crashes to earth, followed later by Megs. Bee's vocal cords are damages (God, Ratchet sucks as a medic if its been more than a hundred years).

 

 

The only questions that remain are: 1) When were Megs and Prime built? 2) When were they chosen as the leaders of Cybertron (I believe it would have to be after the Fallen's betrayal, meaning the Fallen was running around for several hundred or thousand years before contacting Megs and convincing him to join forces. 3) Were there other Primes? If so, when were they killed off and by whom (The Fallen? Megs? Other Decepticons?) ...or are there a few we don't know of that were lost among the stars?

 

 

 

Now, as for creation...I have to go with Tramp on this one. The Allspark fuels the planet...without it, Cybertron is a dead world...its like if the Earth's core suddenly went cold and we lost the moon and we lost the sun. The Allspark and all creatures that were created as a byproduct of it (Assuming transformers evolved from single nano-cells and Robot God didn't make Adamtron and Eve-1) need Energon. Without it, they slowly die off (as Jetfire stated). New transformers need this too, just like babies need milk.

 

Transformers somehow reproduce (how is up to you...I think it involves them consciously joining with another and creating a sparkling that is half of each of them...no penetration...more like them releasing nanobot cells like fish do). Technically...any Transformer I think can create a sparkling with another...leading to some weird slash fics, I know, but I don't think the robots have genders. Arcee merely chose a voice that fit her best, and Simmons equated what he saw with what best fit as a description.

 

Now, here is where I differ from the rest of you: The Sparklings aren't born in those pods. Those pods were created by the Decepticons (maybe even the Autobots too) to allow the sparklings to remain in a type of suspended animation. Notice that the sparkling dies when starscream removes it...the others seem fine. KNowing they lack energon, the Decepticons place the sparklings (which they are just mass producing...they are whores like that) within these pods and when they have enough energon, release one. If they don't feed the sparkling energon when it is removed, it dies rather quickly, as would a baby.

 

Man...my spell check is hating this post.

Ok, just read alot, this is what I got from all of this, based on comments here and what I have seen personally.

 

TImeline:

 

17,000 years ago, the Primes arrive on Earth, build the machine, The Fallen betrays the brothers.

 

Between this and the date below, Megs and Prime are co-leaders of Cybertron, and Meg is contacted by the Fallen.

10,000 years ago, the great war is in full swing, the cube is launched, it crashes to earth, followed later by Megs. Bee's vocal cords are damages (God, Ratchet sucks as a medic if its been more than a hundred years).

 

 

The only questions that remain are: 1) When were Megs and Prime built? 2) When were they chosen as the leaders of Cybertron (I believe it would have to be after the Fallen's betrayal, meaning the Fallen was running around for several hundred or thousand years before contacting Megs and convincing him to join forces. 3) Were there other Primes? If so, when were they killed off and by whom (The Fallen? Megs? Other Decepticons?) ...or are there a few we don't know of that were lost among the stars?

 

To answer your questions:

 

1. No. According to the game and novelization for the 2007 movie, they had parents. Megatron murdered their father and ate his spark. When they were born is unknown. IT was certainly long after the Fallen betrayed his brother Primes.

 

2. that's not known currently, though according to Defiance and some other sources, Optimus is the last of the lineage of Primes. and was orphaned without knowing he was a Prime until the sarcophagi were discovered. It certainly happened millenia after the betrayal by the Fallen.

 

3. yes, there were other Primes that were all killed off. Optimus was the last.

 

Now, as for creation...I have to go with Tramp on this one. The Allspark fuels the planet...without it, Cybertron is a dead world...its like if the Earth's core suddenly went cold and we lost the moon and we lost the sun. The Allspark and all creatures that were created as a byproduct of it (Assuming transformers evolved from single nano-cells and Robot God didn't make Adamtron and Eve-1) need Energon. Without it, they slowly die off (as Jetfire stated). New transformers need this too, just like babies need milk.

 

Transformers somehow reproduce (how is up to you...I think it involves them consciously joining with another and creating a sparkling that is half of each of them...no penetration...more like them releasing nanobot cells like fish do). Technically...any Transformer I think can create a sparkling with another...leading to some weird slash fics, I know, but I don't think the robots have genders. Arcee merely chose a voice that fit her best, and Simmons equated what he saw with what best fit as a description.

 

Now, here is where I differ from the rest of you: The Sparklings aren't born in those pods. Those pods were created by the Decepticons (maybe even the Autobots too) to allow the sparklings to remain in a type of suspended animation. Notice that the sparkling dies when starscream removes it...the others seem fine. KNowing they lack energon, the Decepticons place the sparklings (which they are just mass producing...they are whores like that) within these pods and when they have enough energon, release one. If they don't feed the sparkling energon when it is removed, it dies rather quickly, as would a baby.

 

Man...my spell check is hating this post.

Your notion that they don't have genders is the one point I disagree with you on given several key factors. First off, they show specific and explicit sexual dimorphism between the sexes. And, in every instance we see of families, the couples are always male and female. They also specifically identify themselves as male or female, which, by definition, are physical sexes, not social genders. It was only in Marvel where they specifically had no genders or sexes. I agree that there probably isn't any "screwing" going on, though I do think that the male probably plugs a line into a port on the female to transfer the necessary nanites to her reproductive chamber.

 

It is possible that when born, the offspring are too small to survive on their own (much like marsupials), given that a Transformer body it rigid and thus the internal systems wouldn't be able to stretch to accommodate a stretchable "womb" requiring a pod or some such to allow the offspring to reach a sufficient level of development to survive on its own. Definitely an interesting theory.

I should clarify: All my comments are about the Bay movie only. Yes, there are direct genders in the show. In the movie universe, other than Arcee's voice and choice of hologram, I haven't seen anything to show that they have males and females.

 

I also do not believe that sparklings, in the movie universe, gestate, within another robot. I personally see it as a private, but not sexual, moment, done alone and over many cycles.

I should clarify: All my comments are about the Bay movie only. Yes, there are direct genders in the show. In the movie universe, other than Arcee's voice and choice of hologram, I haven't seen anything to show that they have males and females.

 

I also do not believe that sparklings, in the movie universe, gestate, within another robot. I personally see it as a private, but not sexual, moment, done alone and over many cycles.

Thanks for the clarification, but my point still stands. Even in the movie-verse the Transformers show definite sexual dimorphism. Arcee and her sisters definitely show distinctly female physical characteristics. Arcee's original movie design was also distinctly female in form, even as a protoform. The males certainly show male physical characteristics as well. Whether or not gestation is internal or external (or a mixture of both) though is certainly up for debate. But I would certainly have to say that the movie Cybertronians are definitely divided into two distinct sexes. They've never been described as hermaphrodites.

Yep, Transformer babies. Here are two pages from Victory #10 which shows the wives, sisters, and many, many small children of the Decepticons... Here's a screen cap from the '86 movie showing children form Lithone (another Transformer race)... And here's a link to a transcribed copy of The Story of Wheelie, The Wild Boy of Quintesson, which establishes Wheelie as haveing had a mother and father...

Hmm, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but I'm not sure how authoritative the Victory manga and a Big Looker Book are when it comes to canon. Now, the Lithone do, indeed, appear to have children; however, it is only our conjecture that they are part of the Transformer race, and not just one of the cartoon's other robot species. (Admittedly, the comic adaptation had them transforming; however, the adaptation was also based on an earlier version of the movie script which notably removed the Lithonian's transforming capabilities.)

 

Still, absolutely fascinating stuff!

 

Not really, it isn't. Transformer should be more accurately classified as "mechanoids", they're non-organic, "machine" based life. In canon, Transforers are shown to be able to maintain internal homeostasis and also adapt and evolve over time. As I'll explain further later.

Hmm? I think we actually agree - the Transformers definitely constitute a form of life, mechanoid life if you will. :) I'm simply saying that 'robotic organism' is an oxymoron - a robot, by (loosely agreed) definition lacks homeostasis. When a robot does gain full homeostatic potential, it stops being a robot and becomes life... if that makes sense :)

 

Transformer bodies are made up of self-replicating nano-machine cells. According to the Production designer on the special features disk for the first movie, he says, "Every molecule, every cell, is a machine unto itself.". In the original movie itself, Maggie postulates that the "virus" that infected the system was a "DNA-based computer". When the soldiers are examining Scorponok's tail, the one soldier tells Lennox that, "It's some kind of self-regenerating molecular armor." According to MtMTE#8, Cybertronians have what's referred to as "regenerative ciruitry" (the afore-mentioned nanite cellular structure) which maintains their homeostais and repairs any injury or illness they suffer. Thus, Transformers are self-maintaining, which is the very definition of "homeostasis". They have also been shown to evolve over time individually and as a species through genetic adaptation and in response to their environment. In fact, I would have to say that they are one of the most adaptable forms of life out there. Thus, they meet all seven criteria for life�€â€homeostasis, organized cellular structure, growth, adaptation and evolution, response to stimuli, metabolism, and reproduction. Established canon from as early as Marvel G1 establishes that Transformers have a genetic code. They have a form of DNA analog. Simon Furman calls it CNA (Cyber-Nucleic Acid) in the IDW comics. According to DW's MtMtE #8, as well as Beast Wars, protoforms (the basic pre-formatted form of a Cybertronian) is made up of self-replicating nanites contained within stasis pods filled with nutrient gel.

On the subject of "DNA-based computer"... that's one of my least-favourite lines in the movie. I can only assume that Orci and Kurtzman have a distinct lack of understanding as to what DNA is, as opposed to what it does.

 

I do find the idea of the Transformers being essentially a nanite-based life-form rather interesting, and it is a very convenient explanation for their many fantastical elements (not least of which, being able to transform.) I'd love to see a really in-depth analysis of how the nanites self-organize into specific structures - the 'science of Transformers', if you will.

 

Like I said, it's definitely something I'd like to think about for a while. :)

 

Exactly. Even real-world science theorizes that it is theoretically possible to develop self-replicating nano-machines which could form the building-block of machine-based life which could reproduce just as any organic life form does, be it sexually or asexually. The Transformers are the ultimate culmination of that. Their entire bodies are made up of such machine-based cells which are capable of regeneration through cellular division. And, Marvel (the only continuity where female Transformers did not exist at all) showed us in G2 that Transformers were capable of reproducing asexually in that universe through the cellular division process of budding. If, in that one universe where transformers were indeed sexless, they could reproduce asexually, there is really no reason to conclude that they can't reproduce sexually in some manner in those realities where they are divided into two distinct sexes, especially when there is clear evidence of courtship and mating behavior, including marriage, as well as families consisting of mothers, fathers, and offspring. Contrary to popular opinion, being "robotic" is not a prohibiting factor. There are too many benefits to procreation over construction to begin with.

 

If Transformers were indeed limited to constructing built bodies or factory-made protoforms, and imbuing them with sparks, then they would be in very deep trouble if any of the necessary resources needed were lost. Constructed bodies, and protoforms require a lot of resources. You need factories to build the stasis pods, manufature the nutrient gel, and grow the nanites, you'd need parts, and facilities to store the pods, you need a source of Sparks, be it the Matrix, Vector Sigma, the All Spark, a prohibitive amount of Energon, etc. If any of those resources was missing, they couldn't create new life. Procreation solves those problems because it is far less resource intensive.

 

In the case of sexual reproduction, it simply requires a male and female to mate, and (in the case of internal gestation) enough food to sustain the female and provide the raw nutrients needed for the offspring to develop during gestation, namely metals, silicon, energon, etc that the female can consume. Or, in the case of "egg laying", enough raw "food" within the "egg pod" to sustain the developing offspring "yoke" until it hatches. The only real benefit constructing bodies has over natural procreation and gestation is that by buildigna pody or using a factory-made protoform, you can create a fully grown adult instantly. There's no need for the offspring to grow from infancy to adulthood. Babies are samall, underdeveloped and basivally helpless only because there isn't enough room within a female's body for the egg or fetus to grow to full size within her body and then pass through the birth canal. It's purely a matter of space. Eggs have to be small enough to be laid and babies have to be small enough to fit through the birth canal. Thus, they have to be small and underdeveloped at "birth". Though, growing up from infancy to adulthood does have its advantages too, such as time to develop skills and understanding of cultures and nuances of life. If you need soldiers quickly, the protoforms and built bodies imbued with a Spark are definitely advantageous, however resource intensive. But, if you simply want a family or lack resources, then normal procreation is definitely more advantageous for the species as a whole because, while it takes significantly longer for the offspring to develop and grow to adulthood, it requres far fewer respources and gives the offspring time to develop and learn. And ultimately, procreation be it sexual or asexual is one of the key necessary factors which separates life from non-life. Without that inherent ability, technically, they wouldn't even be life.

 

In the case of the movie, it appears that the Hatchlings didn't have enough nutrients (namely the energon) to develop within their egg pods properly and sustain them.

That's a lot of food for thought!

 

If we assume that the Transformers are purely mechanical, then there's not a whole lot they can do in the way of reproduction - one generation building the next would essentially be the only way to go.

 

If we assume that they are nanite-based lifeforms however, then the sky is the limit. They could reproduce by way of fission, budding, even potentially something as simple as shedding a single cell. Genetic mingling would not have to be limited to two partners - a single Transformer could try improving on their own blueprint, or multiple Transformers could have 'design input'.

I dunno, with the complexity of the movie tfs, there might be room for some sort of womb withing the females body, but i agree they wouldnt be able to develop much there at all. Tho i would imagine the "fetus" would need to reach a certain point of development before being transferred to any sort of pod, unless these are indeed eggs