I think with such unique designs for each of the Constructicons, there was no need to devalue their presence by allowing duplicates to invade the workings of the film. I think a specific number of distinct Constructicons could have gone a longer way in character development...albeit protoforms, cameos, and other potential cannon fodder, which would need to go in order to allot appropriate time for the Constructicons' development. :shrug

 

*I have edited this post a bunch because it was stupid*

 

(Please read this post carefully, it's a bit confusing, and also bear in mind I don't know GI Joe stuff very well at all... *Sweats uncomfortably*)

 

Ya know, I think this is really the crux of how Bay is missing the point of Transformers, and really the greatest weakness of both films (don't get me wrong, I loved the first in spite of it's flaws, so don't write me off as "one of those people who just hates the movies").

 

Bay tries to play Transformers (at least in Rotf) like a war movie. I mean, sure Prime has his little "special forces unit" of unique characters, and Megatrons got his cabinet of unique "officers" but in Bay's mind there must be characters who die for the sake of being cannon fodder, just like in any war movie. He wants it to be like GI Joe in the sense that there's a bunch of faceless soldiers on one side, and a bunch of unique characters on the other. This way he can "kill" a bunch of bad-guys off for the sake of "Realism" but you still have to kill off a few Autobots every once in a while to keep the "danger" present. After all, you can't just kill off an infinite number of dudes on one faction, and never kill anyone on the other, now can you?

 

But therein lies where he missed the point. The Transformers "team dynamic", at least the way I always felt, is less like GI Joe, and more like... the X-men.

 

It seemed to me the Autobots and Decepticons were similar to two distinct teams of superheroes; it was that kind of character driven set up. A diverse group of highly skilled individuals, with very unique personalities and backgrounds over here, who come together to wage war against another group of highly skilled individuals with unique personalities and backgrounds over there, and the Constructicons were a sub-group with even more specialized skills. (Kind of like how in the X-men comics, there are sub-teams that fall under the "X-Men" umbrella.)

 

Yes, they are a military unit, (Yes people die occasionally) but given how hard it is to kill Transformers, fights are usually more about having the right combination of skill, and warding off the enemy's advance today, and being ready to do it again tomorrow. You probably won't kill off the enemy team (during this fight, unless you get lucky) which is why Transformer wars tend to last so long. In spite of tons of collateral damage, the skilled robots don't just die (with a couple of shots to the chest).

 

(this is a stupid aside I apologize)>Why? Well the way I see it, if you have enough control over your molecular and physical structure to be able to change your vehicle mode from a 70's Camaro to an '09 in about .3 seconds, then your ability to repair damage should be pretty healthy.

 

So ironically in the Bay-verse, Transformers COULD to be harder to kill then they were in any other series, but instead they're much easier... cuz little Mikey's gotta make his "Robot War Movie" and kill people for so-called dramatic effect.

 

Somebody really needs to smack some sense into that guy...

Why? Well the way I see it, if you have enough control over your molecular and physical structure to be able to change your vehicle mode from a 70's Camaro to an '09 in about .3 seconds, then your ability to repair damage should be pretty healthy.

You make a lot of good points in your post, but I don't necessarily agree with this sentiment. For Cybertronians, scanning new alt modes and transforming could (and seems) to be as easy as regular muscle movements and thinking is for humans. However, we have parts of our bodies that run on their own (breathing, heart beating, etc) and some of those we have less control over. Our bodies can only heal so much on their own, and our human species can only do so much as far as fixing inuries and illnesses.

 

At least in the Bayverse, I see the TFs more as humans made out of inorganic, metal pieces as opposed to just being machines. They weren't created by another species or by each other like in the cartoon, instead they were created by the All-Spark. So they're going to have the similar limitations in repairing each other as humans do. That would explain why Ratchet's had such a hard time fixing Bumblebee's vocals.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read my little conniption and make some good points!

 

I got so caught up in my rant I kinda got off on a little tangent... sorry, but the key point I was trying to make remains the same:

 

Michael Bay does not respect the individuality of the Transformers. If he did, I probably wouldn't be complaining so much about how he's handled characters like the Constructicons, Sideswipe, and Arcee, among many others.

Why? Well the way I see it, if you have enough control over your molecular and physical structure to be able to change your vehicle mode from a 70's Camaro to an '09 in about .3 seconds, then your ability to repair damage should be pretty healthy.

You make a lot of good points in your post, but I don't necessarily agree with this sentiment. For Cybertronians, scanning new alt modes and transforming could (and seems) to be as easy as regular muscle movements and thinking is for humans. However, we have parts of our bodies that run on their own (breathing, heart beating, etc) and some of those we have less control over. Our bodies can only heal so much on their own, and our human species can only do so much as far as fixing inuries and illnesses.

 

At least in the Bayverse, I see the TFs more as humans made out of inorganic, metal pieces as opposed to just being machines. They weren't created by another species or by each other like in the cartoon, instead they were created by the All-Spark. So they're going to have the similar limitations in repairing each other as humans do. That would explain why Ratchet's had such a hard time fixing Bumblebee's vocals.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read my little conniption and make some good points!

 

I got so caught up in my rant I kinda got off on a little tangent... sorry, but the key point I was trying to make remains the same:

 

Michael Bay does not respect the individuality of the Transformers. If he did, I probably wouldn't be complaining so much about how he's handled characters like the Constructicons, Sideswipe, and Arcee, among many others.

I have to agree with John on this one. And, i also agree with Bay's take doing this as a war movie. That's because the Transformers are at war. People die in wars. That's one of the only real issues with the old cartoons, nobody died (except in the 86 movie). Even in Gi Joe, nobody ever died. Granted, you can blame the "Parents groups" for that. Having characters, even major characters die in battle shows that this is a real war. These are not superheroes, they're soldiers.

I have to agree with John on this one. And, i also agree with Bay's take doing this as a war movie. That's because the Transformers are at war. People die in wars. That's one of the only real issues with the old cartoons, nobody died (except in the 86 movie). Even in Gi Joe, nobody ever died. Granted, you can blame the "Parents groups" for that. Having characters, even major characters die in battle shows that this is a real war. These are not superheroes, they're soldiers.

 

Okay... okay... I'm trying to figure out how to make my next point without sounding condescending, cuz I'm NOT. I've read your opinions and respect them.

 

I guess I should say that, other than that weird tangent I got off on at the end, my post was trying to convey that what I wanted from my Transformers was that sense of individuality and diversity, but also the team unity that you get from X-men. Not the super heroics; that would be quite stupid.

 

And I don't think you should NEVER kill anyone either. Seeing Brawl,and Bonecrusher get dropped in the first one rocked. Prime killing the Blackout guy in ROTF rocked. Killing Jazz sucked, but mostly because it was done so stupidly.

 

What you shouldn't do is cheapen the life of the "character" transformers by turning the Constructicons into this vast regiment having about the same level of expandability as generic foot soldiers. Give them their time on screen; kill them later if you have to, but give them a little respect in the form of treating them as CHARACTERS, show them as the team they are. If you kill Transformers do it because you SHOULD not just because you CAN.

 

I'm sorry that my earlier post was so stupid and tengential that I am having to write an explanation, I just hope that you can appreciate the revised points I'm trying to make.

I have to agree with John on this one. And, i also agree with Bay's take doing this as a war movie. That's because the Transformers are at war. People die in wars. That's one of the only real issues with the old cartoons, nobody died (except in the 86 movie). Even in Gi Joe, nobody ever died. Granted, you can blame the "Parents groups" for that. Having characters, even major characters die in battle shows that this is a real war. These are not superheroes, they're soldiers.

 

Okay... okay... I'm trying to figure out how to make my next point without sounding condescending, cuz I'm NOT. I've read your opinions and respect them.

 

I guess I should say that, other than that weird tangent I got off on at the end, my post was trying to convey that what I wanted from my Transformers was that sense of individuality and diversity, but also the team unity that you get from X-men. Not the super heroics; that would be quite stupid.

 

And I don't think you should NEVER kill anyone either. Seeing Brawl,and Bonecrusher get dropped in the first one rocked. Prime killing the Blackout guy in ROTF rocked. Killing Jazz sucked, but mostly because it was done so stupidly.

 

What you shouldn't do is cheapen the life of the "character" transformers by turning the Constructicons into this vast regiment having about the same level of expandability as generic foot soldiers. Give them their time on screen; kill them later if you have to, but give them a little respect in the form of treating them as CHARACTERS, show them as the team they are. If you kill Transformers do it because you SHOULD not just because you CAN.

 

I'm sorry that my earlier post was so stupid and tengential that I am having to write an explanation, I just hope that you can appreciate the revised points I'm trying to make.

 

You can't really do that in a movie though. There's simply not enough time to give every character any development. Most have to be "cannon fodder" extras. In a book or ongoing series, you can take the time to develop every character or team very easily. In a movie though, it's impossible. There's simply not enough time. Thus, you have to prioritize. The main characters (usually 3) get full characterization. Then the primary supporting characters(an additional 3-5) get some personalty development, but not as much at the main cast. Following them is the secondary supporting cast (about 10), which get minimal character development. Finally, there are the mooks, the cannon fodder, henchmen, extras, which get no characterization and are there to fill out the cast.

For this movie, the main characters are Sam, Mikela, Optimus Prime, and the Twins. The main supporting cast is , Bumblebee, Megatron, Starscream, The Fallen, Soundwave, Jetfire, Major Lennox, and SSG Epps. The Secondary supporting cast included Leo Spitz, Sam's parents, Ironhide, Ratchet, Sideswipe, Arcee and her sisters, Devastator (not the individual Constructicons)The Doctor, Ravage, Agent Galloway, and Simmons. Their importance to the story is what determines how much character development they get. The individual Constructicons really don't add much to the story, whereas Devestator does, seeing as he tears the Pyramid apart to reveal the Sun Harvester. His part, while important, is still relatively small in terms of time, thus, not needing much character development except to know that he's an engine of destruction. We don't need to know much of anything about the individual Constructicons. They add nothing to the story except as henchmen. Thus, there is no need to develop their characters. Because of these kinds of time constraints, and the need for prioritizing characters based upon their importance to the story being told, the Constructicons had to be relegated to the "mook" status.

I think I understand what you're talking about, Th 4RL deal, and I agree. It would be nice to see more communication between the TFs to let their personalities show more. Not all of them, but more than they have in the first movie.

For example, in the first movie one of my favorite scenes was when the Autobots were just talking with each other. Another example, in RotF I LOVED Optimus Prime and the Megatron/Starscream interaction. Unfortunately, otherwise the most expressed personalities were the twins and Jetfire.

 

^^^THIS is what I'm talking about.

 

The scene could play like this: The Constructicons meet up with Ravage aboard the Cargo Ship, just like they did in the movie. Suddenly you see them all Transform, but they are still hiding behind the shipping containers.

Scrapper gives the Order: "Constructicons; disembark"

Now they are cruising down thru the ocean and they land next to Megatron's Corpse. Scrapper speaks again:

"Long Haul; release 'The Doctor'"

"What? Why Do I have to do it??"

Scrapper looks annoyed:

"Rampage! Smack him!"

WHOMP

Long Haul: "OW! FINE!"

Proceed with scene as originally written. (Maybe minus murdering the scrapper "clone") They never even have to get another line in the movie.

 

There! You only added what, a minute? Maybe 2 tops? And suddenly the Constructicons are characters. I rest my case. :thumb

I have to agree with John on this one. And, i also agree with Bay's take doing this as a war movie. That's because the Transformers are at war. People die in wars. That's one of the only real issues with the old cartoons, nobody died (except in the 86 movie). Even in Gi Joe, nobody ever died. Granted, you can blame the "Parents groups" for that. Having characters, even major characters die in battle shows that this is a real war. These are not superheroes, they're soldiers.

I'm completely fine with the war movie analogy...b/c like you said, it is a war. These are soldiers from two opposing armies. The problem I have is that ROTF feels like a poorly executed war movie. To clarify, we most definitely have to have casualties & I don't think anyone's disagreeing with that. But in order to have a level of realism to this war epic, you have to have major and minor characters from both sides bite the bullet! That's what we had with the '86 movie, but that's not what we've got with ROTF. The heroic Autobots seem to be made from some kind of superior metal, because the evil Decepticons are falling apart like tinker toys with single blows! Guess all the good stuff's been mined outta Cybertron! *sarcasm* Meanwhile, the Autobots seem to have super-robot powers that can withstand brutal hits. This aspect was apparent to me in Transformers, but even more so in ROTF. If we're gonna have tons of cannon fodder on one side, then the other side should have their numbers beefed up to create an equal effect. I have no problem with the heroes winning over the villains in the end, but for it to be so one-sided throughout the entirety of the film becomes so anticlimactic!

 

I think the point that 4RL was getting at, which I would agree with, is that the Constructicons are an elite team that should not have been created into duplicate cannon fodder material (a.k.a. Decepticlones)...leave that for the protoforms, and other minor characters (like Sideways who could have gotten away until the final battle, or Barricade who could've shown up for the final battle - or the movie at all!). He did save Scorponok for this moment, although we never saw him anywhere else in the movie. As much as I hated to see him go, Bay probably got it most right with Ravage's demise...but on a personal note, I would have rather seen him escape with Megs & Starscream. ;) But you get my point...the decisions to make the Constructicons into Decepticlones was not the best of choice, IMO.

I like the Bayverse comics and the toy bios for further fleshing out the characters. The bios aren't perfect, but they're fun. For example, I love the description of the twins on their toys and wish they would have been portrayed more like that in the movie...

Bringing up the bios is a perfect opportunity to point out what I view as the disconnect of Paramount & Bay with Hasbro. If the filmmakers would have worked closer with the toy makers, I think this film would have been drastically different. Those bios on the back of each box are so personal and insightful...that's what I really hoped to see within the film from each character. I'm quite aware that there is a limited amount of time to fit all of this within the confines of a movie, but to disregard some (or in some cases, most) of these characteristics, breaks down any real sense of character development within the robots for which the film is named after.

I have to agree with John on this one. And, i also agree with Bay's take doing this as a war movie. That's because the Transformers are at war. People die in wars. That's one of the only real issues with the old cartoons, nobody died (except in the 86 movie). Even in Gi Joe, nobody ever died. Granted, you can blame the "Parents groups" for that. Having characters, even major characters die in battle shows that this is a real war. These are not superheroes, they're soldiers.

I'm completely fine with the war movie analogy...b/c like you said, it is a war. These are soldiers from two opposing armies. Here's the problem I have...we most definitely have to have casualties & I don't think anyone's disagreeing with that. But in order to have a level of realism to this war epic, you have to have major and minor characters from both sides bite the bullet. That's what we had with the '86 movie, but that's not what we've got with ROTF. The heroic Autobots seem to be made from some kind of superior metal, because the evil Decepticons are falling apart like tinker toys with single blows! Guess all the good stuff's been mined outta Cybertron! *sarcasm* Meanwhile, the Autobots seem to have super-robot powers that can withstand brutal hits. This aspect was apparent to me in Transformers, but even more so in ROTF. If we're gonna have tons of cannon fodder on one side, then the other side should have their numbers beefed up to create an equal effect. I have no problem with the heroes winning over the villains in the end, but for it to be so one-sided throughout the entirety of the film becomes so anticlimactic!

 

I think the point that 4RL was getting at, which I would agree with, is that the Constructicons are an elite team that should not have been created into duplicate cannon fodder material (a.k.a. Decepticlones)...leave that for the protoforms, and other minor characters (like Sideways who could have gotten away until the final battle, or Barricade who could've shown up for the final battle - or the movie at all!). He did saved Scorponok for this moment, although we never saw him anywhere else in the movie. As much as I hated to see him go, Bay probably got it most right with Ravage's demise...but on a personal note, I would have rather seen him escape with Megs & Starscream. ;) But you get my point...the decisions to make the Constructicons into Decepticlones was not the best of decisions, IMO.

I disagree. First off, the Constructicons themselves didsn't add anything to the story except to form Devastator and fill out the numbers of Decepticons. The Decepticons also seriously outnumbered the Autobots. The Autobots themxselve were indeed a Special Ops unit of only a handful of individuals: ten in total, not counting Jetfire and Wheelie. The decepticons had hordes of troops including the Constructicons. The various Constructicons alone outnumbered all of the Autobots including Wheelie and Jetfire. Remember, there were at least two of each type of Constructicon, and seven types of Constructicon in total. That means that there were at least fourteen Constructicons. Add to that, the other named Decepticons as well as all of the other nameless cannon-fodder, and the Autobots were outnumbered almost three to one. And even the Autobots suffered casualties, Optimus in the forest battle (even though he came back via the power of The Matrix), Ironhide was damaged (though not too seriously), Arcee and her purple sister were severely damaged (possibly killed). There were definitely casualties on both sides. The Decepticons simply had more cannon fodder, which is typical of the bad guys anyway. The Constructicons in the movie, aren't a Special forces team. They're construction bots whose primary job was to build Sun Harvesters. They're grunts that are a dime a dozen. Yes, the G1 continuity Constructicons were "special", they're not in this universe. And really, in the context of the story, they didn't need to be either.

^ No need to disagree, you're making my point! The fact that they were turned into Decepticlones in Bayverse was precisely why they didn't add anything to the story, besides forming Devastator...and that was rather anticlimactic. The Constructicons alone outnumbered the Autobots b/c they were seemingly made primarily for cannon fodder by the Bay Team. I'm simply stating I believe that was a weak call. Their unique designs scream for individuality, but were not provided with such.