I've read essays online about how the Smurfs is one big vehicle for promoting Communism/Socialism and about how Papa Smurf = Marx and Brainy Smurf = Trotsky. :P

 

And a whole army of cowboys are no match for the mightiest of Indians - Indian Superman!

"Eat this, Wyatt Earp!"

 

and even if a cowboy had Kryptonite, Indian Superman is clearly backed up by his sidekick - Indian Spidermanwoman!

...dude... that youtube vid just sent me into the twilight zone.. :wtf

Back on topic, sooner or later we grow out of that "cowboys vs injuns" mentality

And then comes the realization that our toys and cartoons didn't grow with us. At that point most people move on to more adult entertainment. Those who don't are often led into discussions like this.

Back on topic, sooner or later we grow out of that "cowboys vs injuns" mentality

And then comes the realization that our toys and cartoons didn't grow with us. At that point most people move on to more adult entertainment. Those who don't are often led into discussions like this.

I tried.. soo tried not to participate!

... :fail

 

..speaking of more "adult" entertainment, I hear Kristin Kreuk's gonna be playing Chun Li...

Well I think it's a case of some people thinking that the Decepticons had more personality depth because they were not a bunch of "unquestionably loyal Yes-Men" like the Autobots were. Unfortunately, what the fans mistake for deep personalties is really a simple case of selfish amorality. Sure, most of the Cons had some more individuality than "Loyal soldier of Megatron" but they were still perfectly willing to commit immoral acts to achieve their selfish goals.

I was just wondering - because i think you will eventually have an apreciation for fiction that isn't simple B&W stuff.

Even Giant Robots dishing out @$$-Kickings - can have some thought behind them.

 

Really the whole - Muwahahahaha I'm EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEvil!

style of story telling is made for 13 year old boys, and younger.

 

My point being - that it's natural to expect/hope that the stories that engage you will become more complex as you get older.

 

Fair call, but Transformres IS marketted by Hasbro TO a younger Audience. We're just along for the ride. We've got our comics whih are a more complex set of tales, etc.

 

 

Heh, I was talking to a guy who was complaining about the Transformers movie, and he got onto the subject of the humour.

He said -And I quote- "Masturbation jokes? What is this film, marketed at 12 year olds?"

I peed.

 

 

That is all I have to say, because I saw Beast Wars and read the comics.

JMO, but this was perfectly addressed in Beast Machines. You cannot have one without the other. The truth is ALL things in nature are good and evil at the same time. Only under a God where morality is imposed does the question of good and evil apply. Since the Transformers are without a supreme maker (that we know of) they don't really fall under such scrutiny.

Back on topic, sooner or later we grow out of that "cowboys vs injuns" mentality

And then comes the realization that our toys and cartoons didn't grow with us. At that point most people move on to more adult entertainment. Those who don't are often led into discussions like this.

 

 

Um, I agree... I think.

Since the Transformers are without a supreme maker (that we know of) they don't really fall under such scrutiny.

You sure about that? ;) :)

 

 

The philosophy of Beast Machines was more like Aristotle's Phronesis (φÏόνησις) or Daoism's Yin Yang (陰陽), arguing that the universe is comprised of a natural balance between light and dark, organic and technological... and although the show itself did not argue this, one could postulate that there is a cyclical balance between good and evil.

 

In Beast Machines, "good" and "evil" were far more subjective. Both the Maximals and Vehicons believed that their respective causes were just. The Maximals were supposedly fighting for liberty whilst the Vehicons were fighting to maintain peace through tyranny. Even Optimus Primal conceded that there was some merit in the Vehicon cause. At at the end of Season One, Optimus Primal's fanaticism nearly ended up destroying Cybertron - for the first time we saw the leader of a so-called "heroic" faction actually becoming a villain - not that it made Megatron a hero in comparison, but we did see Optimus becoming equally fanatical about his own perceived cause and lowering himself to Megatron's level of amorality where the ends (i.e.: the near destruction of Cybertron) justified the means.

 

Aristotle argued that true virtue does not lie at either cardinal virtue (extremes) but midway between the two. So according to this logic, true virtue is neither good nor evil, but halfway between the two. Daoism argues that true virtue is a cyclical balance between two extremes, which is similar to how binary logic functions - when expressed in hexagram form, the Yin Yang forms a 64-bit algorithm.

 

L: The 8-bit Trigrams (Bagua) of Yin Yang, R: the 64-bit hexagrams of Yin Yang

 

Aristotle:

Okay, I think Gokti just turned this thread into a college level philosophy course.

 

I will admit, Beast Machines specifically might exemplify one or both of those concepts. But that's nly a tiny fraction of the Transformers multiverse.

 

And for the person who brought up the idea of God imposing concepts of good and evil... no.

 

Evil, as modern man understands it, is acting in one's own interests to the detriment of others (usually the severe detriment of others), albeit in the extreme. If I kill people because I enjoy the sensation of knowing I determined who would live and who would die, that would make me evil. On the other hand, if I shot and killed a man who broke into my house intent on killing me, and did not enjoy it, I would not be evil.

 

Decepticons act in their own self-interests to the detriment of others. Autobots (usually) do not, and when they do, they will often seek atonement and otherwise show remorse. Yet, these aren't blanket statements.

 

It is possible to find good, noble, and heroic individuals fighting on the "evil" side and evil, nasty, despicable characters fighting on the "good" side in reality. During, say, the Second Gulf War, I'm certain that many of the actual troops of Saddam were good men who said their prayers to Mecca at the prescribed times, did NOT beat their wives or children, and fought because they honestly believed that defending their country was the 'right' thing to do. That doesn't change the fact that their Commander In Chief was a despicable human being who gassed his own people and did much worse in his life. Meanwhile, while the majority of US Troops may have been average Joes who decided to sign up and serve the US Military, I myself knew more than a few Marines when I was Active Duty in the Corps who, frankly, scared me. These are men who would describe, with relish, what it looked like when they shot another human being in the first Gulf War, or in any of the skirmishes that never officially happened in between.

 

Look at possibly one of the more complex Decepticon types - technically a Predacon, though. Black Arachnia. Starting off, she was as vicious and evil as they come, and would do whatever best served her self-interests. If that meant following Megatron's orders to keep from being blasted, so be it. When she met her "white knight", she constantly derided him for his moral choice. Yet slowly, her self-interest began to align with his. And when she finally started acting against her self-interest for the sake of others, she actually found it satisfying. She was still self-serving, but could put it aside when the situation warranted. As a character, she experienced greater growth than almost any other character in the series (with a few possible exceptions such as Dinobot, and fill-in-the-blank here).

 

Reaching into another fandom, Severus Snape is a perfect example of "Evil in the Service of Good". SPOILERS?

 

 

He's a nasty, hateful, spiteful man who serves the "Light", to be honest, mostly for revenge, a self-interest he feels is stronger than his own need for survival. He does NOTHING for others for the sake of doing it, but only to further his own goals and his own intents. Even as he died, his thought was not to assist Harry, but to make one last act to stop Voldemort.

 

 

And, of course, in good fiction, we will often find the archetype of the noble, chivalrous knight serving the Evil Overlord, not because he belives in his cause, but because he is bound by oaths and honor to do so - or, conversely, is gullible and is not aware of the acts his Overlord is ordering across the countryside.

 

However, it is safe to say that 99% of the Decepticons ARE evil, nasty, vicious bastiches who'd squish you underfoot as soon as look at you. It's also safe to say that 99% of the Autobots are good, conscientious individuals who do what is right BECAUSE it's right.