The ONLY reason he'd scan a T-Rex is to give the audience, and the fans a "wow ain't that cool Grimlock's a T-Rex moment".

Sorry, IMO that's just not a good enough reason to go through all the contrivance required to get to that moment.

Is it any more of a contrivance than any of the other Autobot's scanning scenes?No is the answer.

Of course it is. The Autobots are alien technology mimicking human technology for disguise - there's a connection there. A t-rex skeleton lacks such a connection, and offers no additional benefits when compared to human technology, and is therefore a more contrived source for an alt. mode.

 

Geez people, why don't you just crap all over him...I think it's a cool idea, certainly the best rationalization for a movie Grimlock with a G1 alt mode that I've read.

:thumb I notice that nobody has offered up an alternative here. I thought we had writers in our midst.

Hey, I offered an alternative.

 

But the fun is in trying to make it work.

I know. That's why I offered criticism of the idea as it stands now, to help you continue to try and make it work. You're not there, yet. It doesn't mean you won't be, but more story ideas need refinement than do not.

Geez. It's like it's become 'Protectobots R Us' around here. A guy can't even share something with his "fellow" fans about an idea he and a buddy were brainstorming about without everyone taking it as a personal attack on the Transformers franchise? I can't decide which is more ridiculous, that or the fact that people are more worried about plotholes in someone's personal idea more than they are the actual screenplay. It's probably time to lighten up. :tflaugh

Hey A.M.,I've been arguing about Transformers online for four years now (with fans, with members of the production, with people involved in the video game) and am constantly amazed that attitudes haven't changed in all those years. Actually, scratch that - I'm not surprised at all!This seems more like your classic "lets show the new guy how we do things here" scenario. No biggie.

...Or, maybe, it was just a bad idea that people admittedly overreacted to a bit.

I've read enough positive reaction to my Grimlock post on other boards to know that it isn't a "bad" idea at all.

Flawed certainly, but not "bad". It's just not very popular here, that's all.

Swings and roundabouts.

I certainly encourage Dynamo to continue to refine the idea based on anything in this thread he finds to be valid/helpful and to ignore the rest because, as we all know, often times people on the internet (myself included) don't know what they're talking about. I would certainly be interested in seeing further "drafts" of the concept if he were inclined to share them.

I'm not really interested in exploring the idea further to be honest. I'm more interested in having someone more talented flesh the concepts out. I've had that happen before online, both with story concepts and artwork. It's enormously satisfying to watch a community of fans run with an idea and take it to levels you didn't expect.

1. Who cares about improvement? 2.He's not writing the actual script or anything. 3. He was just talking over an idea with a buddy and decided to share.

1. Hopefully somebody else! :thumb 2. Thankfully!3. That's how it all starts... :eek

Who cares about improvement?

Well, gee, I never thought of it like that. :rollI think most people would want their work to be the best it can be, even if it is just fan-fiction for fun's sake. He's creative enough to come with the idea, and I think he's creative enough to refine it if he finds doing so to be enjoyable.

Once again, this isn't "work". I'm not a writer. Picture the scene: Two guys in a cafeteria talking about how cool Transformers are. That's it. We're not striving for perfection here. :roll

Wow. Someone cannot even tell someone on the internet that an idea is abd, without other people trashing him for it?Sure, It is the internet. Don't take things too seriously. But, that goes both ways. Someone can make a comment, and someone else is as free to react to that. As long as it isn't getting personal, one is free to say whatever one wants. I think the way Dynamo wrote that part is bad. Are you now telling me I cannot say that? How can you defend Freedom of speech when assaulting someone for exactly doing that?I think some people here are greatly overreacting, making a problem where there was none. It seems to me they would prefer fora where no-one says anything, so that no-one can disagree.That said, I think the idea of a Grimlock that reformats into a T-Rex in the movie would be neat. I could live without him, though.

I think the point he's trying to make is that you took the initial post a bit too seriously, criticizing the writing quality/style as opposed to talking about the ideas within. A better response would've been to expand on the ideas (ideas that you admit you like) in a few short sentences. Alternatively you could've just said "Grimlock reformats into a T-Rex! Neat!". Either is good for me.I set up the first post (me and my mate chatting etc.) hoping you'd understand that that it wasn't a serious attempt to write a film treatment.

Well you know it isn't an either-or situation. Writers are tasked with rationalizing story mandates all the time. If the decision is made to put a dinosaur Grimlock in a sequel, then the writers have to make it work within the context of the story.

That is true - and it's something that we've seen writers have to cope with throughout the history of Transformers from the very beginning. Sometimes this is done well, other times poorly, such as "The Rebirth" (look! A 3-episode toy commercial!), Scramble City, the Action Masters in the late G1 comics (*shudder* - though Furman did a commendable job of it) - and Mainframe Entertainment was dictated by Hasbro in terms of what characters they were allowed to have and not allowed to have in the show. Most of the time when someone died in Beast Wars, it was because Hasbro told them to remove them from the story to make way for new characters. This was mostly handled well, but one poor example was the deaths of Terrorsaur and Scorponok (it was so "Uh-oh! Spaghetti-o!").Having said that, I think that Michael Bay has way more creative freedom than other TF writers - from everything I've heard and read from Bay and others that worked on the film and the interview with Aaron Archer, Hasbro pretty much stepped back and let them do what they wanted to do. So I reckon that the only reason we'd see a dino-moded Transformer in a movie would only be because Michael Bay would want it.

Bay is all-powerful. :eek But you don't think Bay'll find a giant robot T-Rex cool? C'moooon!

Having said that, I think that Michael Bay has way more creative freedom than other TF writers - from everything I've heard and read from Bay and others that worked on the film and the interview with Aaron Archer, Hasbro pretty much stepped back and let them do what they wanted to do. So I reckon that the only reason we'd see a dino-moded Transformer in a movie would only be because Michael Bay would want it.

True, the filmmakers' license from Hasbro basically gives them full control.However, even though Hasbro has no direct influence over the production, they are capable of indirectly changing some aspects films - for instance, it's been speculated a lot of the first film's initial EXTREEM head/face designs were changed because Hasbro leaked them to the fandom, which in turn screamed bloody murder...

Hasbro had final sign-off on the characters. They approved the flames and the other things you hate, but they were VERY strict about the look of each of the robots. I saw the approval process in action and how Hasbro protected its IP.

Having said that, I think that Michael Bay has way more creative freedom than other TF writers - from everything I've heard and read from Bay and others that worked on the film and the interview with Aaron Archer, Hasbro pretty much stepped back and let them do what they wanted to do. So I reckon that the only reason we'd see a dino-moded Transformer in a movie would only be because Michael Bay would want it.

True, the filmmakers' license from Hasbro basically gives them full control.However, even though Hasbro has no direct influence over the production, they are capable of indirectly changing some aspects films - for instance, it's been speculated a lot of the first film's initial EXTREEM head/face designs were changed because Hasbro leaked them to the fandom, which in turn screamed bloody murder...

I recall reading that Hasbro insisted that Prime have chest windows...

See my last post.

The ONLY reason he'd scan a T-Rex is to give the audience, and the fans a "wow ain't that cool Grimlock's a T-Rex moment".

Sorry, IMO that's just not a good enough reason to go through all the contrivance required to get to that moment.

Is it any more of a contrivance than any of the other Autobot's scanning scenes?No is the answer.

Of course it is. The Autobots are alien technology mimicking human technology for disguise - there's a connection there. A t-rex skeleton lacks such a connection, and offers no additional benefits when compared to human technology, and is therefore a more contrived source for an alt. mode.

 

Geez people, why don't you just crap all over him...I think it's a cool idea, certainly the best rationalization for a movie Grimlock with a G1 alt mode that I've read.

:thumb I notice that nobody has offered up an alternative here. I thought we had writers in our midst.

Hey, I offered an alternative.

 

But the fun is in trying to make it work.

I know. That's why I offered criticism of the idea as it stands now, to help you continue to try and make it work. You're not there, yet. It doesn't mean you won't be, but more story ideas need refinement than do not.

 

If the Autobots can mimic the wood-paneling in a car, the rubber on a tire and the subtle details in a paint job (and they can)...they can mimic ANYTHING.

Don't forget, their faces are supposed to be based on our own (to help with communication), meaning that they DO understand the importance of at least trying to copy a life form as best they can. So why not a T-Rex? Especially as the T-Rex was considered one of the most dangerous animals of all time. You don't think Grimlock would go for that? Really?

 

*shrugs* Hey, I didn't make the rules.

...a sort of dragony style thing......Everyone wins.

Uhm...not really. A dragony style thing?I don't feel so bad about the Mary-Sue thing now.

Are you going to offer me critical reasons why that plot doesn't work, like I did for you, or were you going to leave it at snide remarks?

 

For the record, I've never used the term "Mary-Sue" and have offered you encouragement multiple times in this thread, while only offering my criticism, not off of the initial post, but after you asked for people's opinions.

 

If the Autobots can mimic the wood-paneling in a car, the rubber on a tire and the subtle details in a paint job (and they can)...they can mimic ANYTHING.

The question isn't can they, it's why would they.

 

Don't forget, their faces are supposed to be based on our own (to help with communication), meaning that they DO understand the importance of at least trying to copy a life form as best they can.

Citation, please.

 

So why not a T-Rex? Especially as the T-Rex was considered one of the most dangerous animals of all time. You don't think Grimlock would go for that? Really?

Not when a military vehicle or another Transformer is even more deadly.

...a sort of dragony style thing......Everyone wins.

Uhm...not really. A dragony style thing?I don't feel so bad about the Mary-Sue thing now.

1. Are you going to offer me critical reasons why that plot doesn't work, like I did for you, or were you going to leave it at snide remarks?

 

2. For the record, I've never used the term "Mary-Sue" and have offered you encouragement multiple times in this thread, while only offering my criticism, not off of the initial post, but after you asked for people's opinions.

 

If the Autobots can mimic the wood-paneling in a car, the rubber on a tire and the subtle details in a paint job (and they can)...they can mimic ANYTHING.

3. The question isn't can they, it's why would they.

 

Don't forget, their faces are supposed to be based on our own (to help with communication), meaning that they DO understand the importance of at least trying to copy a life form as best they can.

4. Citation, please.

 

So why not a T-Rex? Especially as the T-Rex was considered one of the most dangerous animals of all time. You don't think Grimlock would go for that? Really?

5. Not when a military vehicle or another Transformer is even more deadly.

 

1. Your plot idea probably could work. I just couldn't resist a jab at your "dragony" comment. "T-rexy" would've been mre acceptable. :)

 

2. Fair enough.

 

3. Sorry, but why wouldn't they? I suppose what I should be asking is: "Why wouldn't Bay make it that way?"

The Transformers are chameleons. They change into whatever they can/need to/think is cool. This is an age old argument that is unnecessary here. I'm more interested in how we can (plausibly) have Grimlock turn into a T-Rex (a ROBOTIC T-Rex specifically).

 

4. I'm unable to back that up with a testimonial. It's pretty obvious from watching the film that the Autobots place more importance on communicating with us (and relating to us) than the Decepticons because they have very humanoid faces (and bodies), while the deceps look that bit more alien. I could maybe try and contact the writers to find out.

 

5. I think that the majority of fans would prefer to see Grimlock adopt his G1 Dinosaur mode to be honest. If it can be made to work, then why not? Otherwise you might as well not have him in the film and go with another fan-favourite character.

Some of what follows is cut and pasted from previous Movie Dinobot discussions I've had, but it's all relevant.

 

3. Sorry, but why wouldn't they? I suppose what I should be asking is: "Why wouldn't Bay make it that way?"

The Transformers are chameleons. They change into whatever they can/need to/think is cool.

Why they wouldn't: It should be about more than what they think is cool.

 

Put a real dinosaur against a real tank or a real jet, and I guarantee we'll be having T-Rex t-bones for dinner. You can argue that they're not real dinosaurs, but rather Cybertronian robots in dino-shapes, but then it's the Cybertronian robot bits that are making short work of the tanks and jets. Which means I have to ask again: What is the dino-shape bringing to the party, other than a slavish devotion to a 20 year old cartoon concept and no concern for the movie being made now?

 

What I'm saying is that when you remove the alien robot aspect, the alt. modes in the movie all still serve a function. Speed, or flight, or firepower. They all serve to disguise, even a tiny boom box like Frenzy.

 

The problem is a dinosaur mode doesn't offer anything when the alien robot aspect is taken away (except maybe flight from a Pterodactyl type mode, but even then, why not just be a jet which is faster and packing missles?). Teeth and claws that cut into metal, lasers shot out of the mouth, that's all because of the alien robot, not anything the dinosaur itself adds to the party.

 

IMO, the best way to make a character's action plausible, are to write the actions the character would take independent of any expectations the audience has about who this character should be...scanning a dinosaur mode doesn't seem to fit that bill.

 

5. I think that the majority of fans would prefer to see Grimlock adopt his G1 Dinosaur mode to be honest. If it can be made to work, then why not? Otherwise you might as well not have him in the film and go with another fan-favourite character.

 

I think Grimlock's got a unique and strong enough character that he can bring something to the story beyond just being the dinosaur guy. The other four Dinobots are probably redundant and not gonna add much, though.

 

As I see how Grimlock could be used specifically:

 

In the film there existed some human distrust of all Transformers, Autobot or Decepticon. Particularly from a military point of view. The Autobot, however, likely won over some of the distrusting humans by saving the world.

 

The introduction of Grimlock in the sequel as a tough, battle loving Autobot could strain this trust and make life difficult for the Autobots. Because, unlike Ironhide and the other 'Bots, Grimlock can't necessarily be kept in line by Prime. Grimlock will do what he needs to do to win, and if that means some human deaths...so be it.

 

And that creates conflict that comes from character and that helps a story have depth. How the Autobots and the humans deal with that "betrayed trust" is ripe with story potential. Particularly if the 'Cons are bringing some sort of combiner or enhanced Triple Changing soldiers to the fight that the Autobots can't handle without the conflict causing Grimlock.

 

There's not really another Autobot who is as well known and who could come in and create that sort of conflict...and none of that conflict requires Grimmy to be a dinosaur.

 

Grimlock's character deserves an alt. mode that's more than fanwank. Now, having said all that:

 

This is an age old argument that is unnecessary here. I'm more interested in how we can (plausibly) have Grimlock turn into a T-Rex (a ROBOTIC T-Rex specifically).

Okay. If that's really what you're looking for, here's the first angle I would suggest exploring to make it work: If it doesn't make sense for him to scan a dinosaur alt. mode, let's look for the ways in which he could receive the alt. mode without scanning it himself, or scanning it at all...anyone got any ideas on that?

I've never been critical of the suggestion of having Grimlock as a dinosaur or having any beast moded Transformers in the show. Scorponok was a robotic animal who appeared in the movie, so it's not as if it hasn't already happened before . Although admittedly he was never a robot in disguise - nor even a true Transformer in the film, but I don't see why we can't have Transformers with realistic beast modes in the movie. I love Beast Wars and it'd rock to see something like that in a movie. My criticisms were more about the way that the character was written which you already know about.

This topic gives me a headache to read. And it's now up to 4 pages of the same back & forth argument that is going nowhere fast. If someone has something new to add, please do so, but otherwise lets please let this one die at least until Grimlock is confirmed as a character in the upcoming sequel.