How would I do the sequel.... hmm!

 

Destroy the last remnants of Fanboydom and bring in Megatron's spark brother.... Galvatron. also see the introduction of TC and Skywarp and the new threat of Sunstorm(the Herald of Unicron!)

Yes, tape players are out of date, but CD players are not, Stereo systems are not, MP3 players are not, nor are computers. It also isn't a retcon because we do have characters right from the beginning who were able to greatly change their size and mass. The definition of a Ret-Con (retroactive continuity) is a change made later to correct an error in continuity. Size and Mass shifting has always been a part of G1, not something added later to correct something. How it was achieved has only recently been explained, but not the process has always been there. Given the transformations of Soundwave, Blaster, Megatron, Astrotrain, Perceptor, and the cassettes, among a few others, mass or size shifting was necessary for their alt modes to make any sense. A giant tape deck, stereo, or microscope doesn't make for a very good disguise now, does it? A miniature space shuttle or locamotive don't make very good disguises nor are very practical are they? These kinds of modes need to be able to grow and shrink as necessary. That is the reason for Mass and size shifting. For Soundwave to be "done right" he needs to be some form of relatively small stereo or communications device, not a vehicle, yet still be a big robot. That is part of what makes Soundwave Soundwave. He doesn't have to be a tape deck. A modern analog is plenty suitable. However, mass shifting is an integral part of Soundwave. Therefore, since that is so integral to that character, they decided to save him for one of the sequels so that they could explain the reasons for his ability and thus, it would be a part of the plot because Soundwave would be a central character, as he has always been. There is just too much other stuff that needs to be covered in the first movie to devote to explaining why such and such character can change size. For most Transformers, size or mass shifting is totally unnecessary because they are vehicles: cars, trucks, aircraft, and their robot sizes already closely match their vehicle sizes. They're medium-to-large size vehicles who become medium-to-large size robots. None of them have Super-huge size alt modes, nor super small alt modes except for Frenzy, and his robot mode is also super small. Fenzy has always been small, so a small alt mode, and lack of mass shifting, is appropriate. They didn't need for him to mass shift, However, Soundwave has always been big in robot mode, but with a small alt mode. It wouldn't work for him to have a small (human sized or smaller) robot mode given his importance as an iconic character. He needs to be able to mass shift.

 

To answer your question about why it was not used since the initial Microman molds, it is because later series didn't have characters who needed it.All of the later series had every character transform into a vehicle (or animal) of some sort. None transformed into more mundane, though still useful, objects like stereos or microscopes. Thus, mass shifting was unnecessary in most cases. However, if you look at Cybertron the Minicons, Jolt, Reverb, and Six shot do size shift to a degree. Their alt modes are large enough to allow for humans to sit inside their cockpits, yet, when they are in robot mode, they are not much more than a foot or two taller than the average adult Human man. Without some size shifting ability, there is no way they could fit someone in their cockpits.

You're going to be one of those guys that will hate Movie Soundwave forever if he turns into a News Van or Stealth Bomber or something aren't you? Cause I'd bet money now that IF Soundwave ends up in the Movies, he is NOT going to Mass-Shift into something tiny and be an 18-30 Ft. Tall robot. It just won't happen, cause you know the film guys have no reason to force it into the Movies just because that's how they used to do it in the old 80's cartoon/comic/toyline.

 

Look, I love G1, I am a big-time G1 Megatron fanboy, but I would never want Movie Megs to turn into a gun ever. PERIOD. A Tank - sure, a Jet - sure, a cybertronian jet - sure, but I DO NOT want him to ever turn into something where he must shrink down an extraordinary amount to be in disguise or have a decent use. Doesn't it bother you to think about having a HUGE robot, on the same scale (or close to it at least) of say Ironhide or Optimus Prime that must shrink down to the size of a small electronic device, like a MP3 Player or a Stereo that can NOT move around on it's own?

 

How would I do the sequel.... hmm!

 

Destroy the last remnants of Fanboydom and bring in Megatron's spark brother.... Galvatron. also see the introduction of TC and Skywarp and the new threat of Sunstorm(the Herald of Unicron!)

Please take no offense in this IF this is a serious post, but - I really hope and pray that this is NOT how the movie writers and producers want to go. Skywarp and Thundercracker are cool and could work fine, but Sunstorm and Unicron - ehn. Particularly on Unicron - just EHN.

The definition of a Ret-Con (retroactive continuity) is a change made later to correct an error in continuity. Size and Mass shifting has always been a part of G1, not something added later to correct something. How it was achieved has only recently been explained, but not the process has always been there.

 

Right, the how it was achieved was the retcon. Not the fact that it was, in fact, achieved. Just like midiclorians.

 

Given the transformations of Soundwave, Blaster, Megatron, Astrotrain, Perceptor, and the cassettes, among a few others, mass or size shifting was necessary for their alt modes to make any sense. A giant tape deck, stereo, or microscope doesn't make for a very good disguise now, does it? A miniature space shuttle or locamotive don't make very good disguises nor are very practical are they? These kinds of modes need to be able to grow and shrink as necessary.

 

No, the robots need to be that size to begin with, like Movie Frenzy.

 

That is the reason for Mass and size shifting. For Soundwave to be "done right" he needs to be some form of relatively small stereo or communications device, not a vehicle, yet still be a big robot.

 

For Soundwave to be done right, he needs: to be fiercely loyal to Megatron, a man of few words, have some minions pop out from someplace, and be capable of spying. That's it. Period.

 

To answer your question about why it was not used since the initial Microman molds, it is because later series didn't have characters who needed it.All of the later series had every character transform into a vehicle (or animal) of some sort. None transformed into more mundane, though still useful, objects like stereos or microscopes.

 

But why weren't there any mass shifting object-formers? Hasbro doesn't just stumble upon robots and release them, they come up with them from scratch, and Hasbro could've made as many as they wanted, but they realized it was silly and abandoned the concept after the first year or two.

Oi Atmo...just Oi.

 

First - Grindor. GRINDOR?! - So much for this series sticking to being G1. Why would you include him of all characters? Plus doesn't this go against your own "tradition must be followed"? Cause Grindor was only ever a Mini-Con, not a full-scale regular TF. Plus he wasn't even a Decepticon Mini-Con. That breaks all the tradition right there.

 

Grindor's just a name... as seen with "Ironhide". the name's been given to a lot of different TFs who are completely diferent characters than G1 IH was. as for tradition etc, well... we already finished that arguement over AIM and so i'm not continuing here

 

Secondly - I guess you'd also have Starscream get a brand new face, since you hate it too, right? But why would Starscream go from a F-22 to a F-18? Isn't that more of a downgrade to suck, than an upgrade to awesome?

the F-18 looks better. sure it's a downgrade, but it looks awesome and still works. and yes, he'd have a new head. his mouth would be similar the the style used on movie Megatron's mouth. actually his whole face would be. i'd have to do some cheating in order to make up an excuse as to why the wings on his back enable him to fly in bot mode too though. as his transformation is a lot like my altered image of movie SS's is. meaning the widened out plane body becomes wings on his back etc etc.

 

Thirdly - Sizes!!! - Astrotrain would have to be MASSIVE to have a Space Shuttle form. Think about that - He would have to be HUGE! Also a Viper and a Locomotive are very very different in size, a Car-Ready TF isn't gonna suddenly be able to be a Locomotive, especially since there is NO mass-shifting, sub-space BullBlot going on.

you're the only person i've heard this from. i dont think it matters what vehicles the protoforms scan since it gives them a completely new body in the first place. that, alone, is mass shifting in a sense. and i believe a space shuttle is a slight bit longer than a semi truck (including the trailer) hey that gives me an idea! Prime will get a new alt mode in my sequel too. while he'll be the same truck, the trailer will somehow be incorporated into his bot mode. this should allow for larger robots and less height cutting on jetformers, shuttleformers, and trainformers alike

Grindor's just a name... as seen with "Ironhide". the name's been given to a lot of different TFs who are completely diferent characters than G1 IH was. as for tradition etc, well... we already finished that arguement over AIM and so i'm not continuing here

Uh-huh - we finished this in IM, yet you still have to post about it to get the final word here on the boards. Nice.

 

 

the F-18 looks better. sure it's a downgrade, but it looks awesome and still works. and yes, he'd have a new head. his mouth would be similar the the style used on movie Megatron's mouth. actually his whole face would be. i'd have to do some cheating in order to make up an excuse as to why the wings on his back enable him to fly in bot mode too though. as his transformation is a lot like my altered image of movie SS's is. meaning the widened out plane body becomes wings on his back etc etc.

What ever floats your boat there.

 

 

you're the only person i've heard this from. i dont think it matters what vehicles the protoforms scan since it gives them a completely new body in the first place. that, alone, is mass shifting in a sense. and i believe a space shuttle is a slight bit longer than a semi truck (including the trailer) hey that gives me an idea! Prime will get a new alt mode in my sequel too. while he'll be the same truck, the trailer will somehow be incorporated into his bot mode. this should allow for larger robots and less height cutting on jetformers, shuttleformers, and trainformers alike

I might be the only guy you've heard this from, but give me some credit. I'm trying to apply logic here. A Protoform only has a certain amount of mass. Where is a high-end sports car-sized Protoform going to get enough extra mass to become a full-length locomotive? If the Protoform's own size is only big enough to handle a certain scale of vehicle, where's the extra mass going to come from?

And just FYI Atmo - a Space Shuttle (the orbiter itself) is roughly 124 feet long (then you have to add all the width, wingspan, and height mass to it). A fully loaded full-length long nose semi truck is only roughly 70-73 feet long (depending if the truck is meant for highway or non-highway use).

This is good advice and bears repeating:

There is no logic to this argument. And IMO arguing about it only kills one's likelihood of ever being attractive to the opposite sex.

You're going to be one of those guys that will hate Movie Soundwave forever if he turns into a News Van or Stealth Bomber or something aren't you? Cause I'd bet money now that IF Soundwave ends up in the Movies, he is NOT going to Mass-Shift into something tiny and be an 18-30 Ft. Tall robot. It just won't happen, cause you know the film guys have no reason to force it into the Movies just because that's how they used to do it in the old 80's cartoon/comic/toyline.

 

Look, I love G1, I am a big-time G1 Megatron fanboy, but I would never want Movie Megs to turn into a gun ever. PERIOD. A Tank - sure, a Jet - sure, a cybertronian jet - sure, but I DO NOT want him to ever turn into something where he must shrink down an extraordinary amount to be in disguise or have a decent use. Doesn't it bother you to think about having a HUGE robot, on the same scale (or close to it at least) of say Ironhide or Optimus Prime that must shrink down to the size of a small electronic device, like a MP3 Player or a Stereo that can NOT move around on it's own?

Actually, no, it doesn't bother me, as long as it is explained properly, as was done in TF: More than Meets the Eye #8. Would I hate the sequel if they didn't make Soundwave size shift? no. However, the whole reason why they didn't put him in the first movie is because he needs to size shift, and they felt that trying to explain mass shifting, on top of everything else would just be too much for the first movie. Don Murphy himself said that in the TransformersCon discussion. Originally, Frenzy was supposed to be Soundwave, but they felt that him being that small did't work for that character, it works for Frenzy though.

 

The definition of a Ret-Con (retroactive continuity) is a change made later to correct an error in continuity. Size and Mass shifting has always been a part of G1, not something added later to correct something. How it was achieved has only recently been explained, but not the process has always been there.

 

Right, the how it was achieved was the retcon. Not the fact that it was, in fact, achieved. Just like midiclorians.

 

Midichlorians aren't a retcon either, because, once again, there was no error being corrected, which is what retcons are for. Mass shifting wasn't an error. Just because something isn't explained until later doesn't make that explaination a retcon.

 

Given the transformations of Soundwave, Blaster, Megatron, Astrotrain, Perceptor, and the cassettes, among a few others, mass or size shifting was necessary for their alt modes to make any sense. A giant tape deck, stereo, or microscope doesn't make for a very good disguise now, does it? A miniature space shuttle or locamotive don't make very good disguises nor are very practical are they? These kinds of modes need to be able to grow and shrink as necessary.

 

No, the robots need to be that size to begin with, like Movie Frenzy.

 

Wrong again. It all depends upon the function of the character; his place in the story and his personality. Soundwave just wouldn't work as a tiny robot, and having him as anything but a form of stereo or communication equipment wouldn't fit either. That is why, the character we know as Frenzy is called "frenzy" since originally he was going to be Soundwave.

 

That is the reason for Mass and size shifting. For Soundwave to be "done right" he needs to be some form of relatively small stereo or communications device, not a vehicle, yet still be a big robot.

 

For Soundwave to be done right, he needs: to be fiercely loyal to Megatron, a man of few words, have some minions pop out from someplace, and be capable of spying. That's it. Period.

 

Wrong. His function as Communications officer requires him to have a form designed specifically for receiving radio transmissions. He needs to be a communications device of some form, be it a stereo system, a CD player, a computer, etc. Not a vehicle. His place in the Decepticon heirarchy requires that his robot mode be on par with that of the other normal sized Decepticons, not a squirt like Frenzy.

 

To answer your question about why it was not used since the initial Microman molds, it is because later series didn't have characters who needed it.All of the later series had every character transform into a vehicle (or animal) of some sort. None transformed into more mundane, though still useful, objects like stereos or microscopes.

 

But why weren't there any mass shifting object-formers? Hasbro doesn't just stumble upon robots and release them, they come up with them from scratch, and Hasbro could've made as many as they wanted, but they realized it was silly and abandoned the concept after the first year or two.

 

No, that isn't why. If that were the case, then Jolt, Reverb and Sixspeed wouldn't size shift when they transformed, and they do. They simply chose the characters to have vehicle or animal modes. The later series didn't have the diverse numbers of characters that G1 had, and many of the functiuons once held by multiple characters were combined into single individuals. Red alert from AEC fulfilled the roles held by both Ratchet, and Perceptor. Because of his job as a medivc, he needed an emergency vehicle mode. IF he were striclty a scientist, then a microscope mode would have been more appropriate. in AEC, we didn't have Communications officers. Therefore, having character who transformed into communications devices was not appropriate either, and tapes, are pretty much obsolete, so the Cassettes are out. On top of that, in Cybertron, we do see TFs who transform into mundane items, We have stop lights, phone booths, and who knows what else. Not wanting Mass shifting is not the reason for main character TFs not transforming into more mundane items. Their functions in their respective groups didn't require it.

Midichlorians aren't a retcon either, because, once again, there was no error being corrected, which is what retcons are for. Mass shifting wasn't an error. Just because something isn't explained until later doesn't make that explaination a retcon.

 

RetCon = Retroactive Continuity.

 

ret·ro·ac·tive (rÄ•t'rÅ-ăk'tÄ­v) adj. Influencing or applying to a period prior to enactment.

 

Can you cite an authoritative source that does link retcon only to correcting errors? Because there's nothing about it being specifically for errors that I can see in the definition. But it's almost always bad storytelling.

 

Also, I could argue that since the G1 show never addressed it, the size difference between some robots and their alt. modes could be construed as animation errors that this retcon in particular is fixing. I could, but I won't.

 

Wrong again. It all depends upon the function of the character; his place in the story and his personality. Soundwave just wouldn't work as a tiny robot, and having him as anything but a form of stereo or communication equipment wouldn't fit either. That is why, the character we know as Frenzy is called "frenzy" since originally he was going to be Soundwave.

 

You have no evidence that it was the size of the character that got the name changed to Freny. The filmmakers have said he wasn't fitting the Soundwave character, and that's it. That statement could apply to any number of aspects about the character.

 

Wrong. His function as Communications officer requires him to have a form designed specifically for receiving radio transmissions. He needs to be a communications device of some form, be it a stereo system, a CD player, a computer, etc. Not a vehicle. His place in the Decepticon heirarchy requires that his robot mode be on par with that of the other normal sized Decepticons, not a squirt like Frenzy.

 

Um...how about a communications vehicle? There's lots of those in the military and law enforcement fields. Or how about a communications satellite? But really, those just fit him thematically. He's a frickin' alien robot. He could turn into a skateboard and receive communications.

 

However, if you really want to talk about his alt. mode servicing his function on the team, then there's not a single solitary advantage to him turning into a low tech item like a stereo or CD player, because a real stereo or CD player wouldn't fit the needs of the Decepticon's communications. Therefore, it's his Cybertronian robot parts that are actually getting the job done, and not his alt. mode.

 

Blah, blah, irrelevant AEC stuff...Because of his job as a medivc, he needed an emergency vehicle mode. IF he were striclty a scientist, then a microscope mode would have been more appropriate.

 

What about G1 Wheeljack, the racecar scientist? Alt. Mode is not designated by function, and vice versa.

 

Please see the "The Bond Gadget Test" thread for more Mass Shifting fun. I'm genuinely interested in your answer to the question posed in the first post.

This is gonna sound really far out there, but this is a little scenario I've come up with. Like it or hate it, I don't care it my idea and I'm sticking to it.

 

The Decepticons, under leadership of the second-in-command Shockwave (Who should be voice by David Kaye with computer affects to make him sound hollow), want to strike back at the Autobots. But their moral is low and Shockwave, because of his cold, hard logic, mind, can't raise it. So he, along with the help of his second-in-command Soundwave (voiced by James Earl Jones with computer affects to get a bit of techno sound), construct a new leader who will have the scientific mind of Shockwave, yet the ruthlessness and the cunning nature of Megaton, creating the ultimate leader who Shockwave can manipulate. The project is called Project Galvatron, the robot is not named yet, but latter takes on the name Galvatron (He should be voice by Leonard Nimoy.) They construct and program him, but cant bring him to life without the All Spark.

 

Thats the premise and it eventually ends with Galvatron coming to life, kills Prime (some Autobot takes over, not Hot Rod, a new character) and Megs who comes back to life along with one key human, and enslaves earth. Starscream is killed for obstructing Shockwave cause he feels he should be the rightful leader.

 

So the characters I have are

Decepticons:

Galvatron

Shockwave

Soundwave

Skywarp

Blackout

Bonecrusher

Thundercracker

Frenzy

Lazerbeak

Ravage

Starscream (Is killed early off)

Megatron (comes back and is killed towards the end)

 

Autobots:

Optimus Prime

Bumblebee

Jazz

Ironhide

Ratchet

Arcee

Inferno

Kup

New Character who becomes leader

 

 

Again this is very far out there, but take it or leave, or even refine it in your way if you want.

Decipticons

 

Depends highly upon Whos alive at the end of the movie.. Say Megs "dies" along with a few Lackys.

So Starscream declares himself leader.. Soundwave shows up to assists (while secretly looking for megs "remains")...

 

Autobots

 

Wheeljack joins the bunch with a few "toys"

( toys= Dinobots ::Doesnt matter why they look like Dinos, who really cares!:: )

I figure MOST Autobots from the 1st are still around so as long as Arcee shows up to get Spikes GF jeolus who cares who else joins heheh.