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Goktimus Prime

Creating a common system of counting TFs Part 1

Should we count Nebulans, AM Weapons and Pretender Shells?  

24 members have voted

  1. 1. Do Nebulans, AM Weapons/Vehicles and Shells count?

    • None of them count separately.
      10
    • They all count separately.
      2
    • Nebulans count but AM Weapons and Shells don't
      11
    • AM Weapons count but Nebulans and Shells don't.
      1
    • Shells count but Nebulans and AM Weapons don't
      0


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This is part of my effort to democratically create a common standard for counting Transformers. The 2006 Collection Survey Protocol will be a result of a series of polls like this throughout August. The actual collection survey will be held in September.

 

Soapbox (JMO)

As I've said before, I don't think Nebulans, Pretender shells and Action Master Weapons/Vehicles should count separately. They are just accessories for the Transformers and not meaningful Transformer toys themselves. Yes yes, the Nebulans have individual names and personas, but they are fundamentally just accessories for their Transformer counterparts. They might be a very important accessory (especially with Headmasters), but they are still just accessories nonetheless.

 

After all, most fans seem to count the original Optimus Prime as one toy despite the fact that he splits into three autonomous components. I'd consider it to be extremely cheap to count Roller and Combat Deck separately - likewise I would view counting Nebulans, Pretender Shells and Action Masters to be in the same vain of trying to cheaply boost your collection count.

 

And while I could grudgingly accept counting Nebulans separately, I would vehemently protest against counting Pretender Shells and AM Weapons/Vehicles separately. The main argument I hear for counting Nebulans separately is that they are autonomous characters with individual names and personas - e.g. Scorponok and Lord Zarak. I can NOT see how this argument could possibly apply for Pretender Shells and AM Weapons/Vehicles, which have always been portrayed as nothing more than accessories for the Transformers, even in TF lore. For example, Pretender shells are portrayed as being essentially armour for their host Transformer, which can be detached and autonomously controlled by the host Transformer. But as G1 clearly showed, the shells themselves are expendable and are never regarded as being actual characters.

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Okay, so what about Mini-cons then? A lot of Armada, Energon and GF toys, not to mention a few Universe ones, come packaged with Mini-cons and they aren't always interactive beyond having the ports. I'd say they have to count seperately especially since many of my Mini-cons no longer have their larger partners with them. But others might disagree.

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I count every sentient being as a Tf. ie: Nebulons and Mini cons each count as one. However a Headmaster does NOT count as two since without the Nebulon the Tf would have no head and suck. The same goes for Armada Overload and Energon magnus. They both count as one.

As for Pretender shells and action Master weapons/bases. They arent alive so don't count.

Roller (Optimus Prime's buggy thing) doesn't count either because according to Prime's profile he is a part of him and does not have his own sentience. Same goes for Trypticon's Full-Tilt.

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I would count the Nebulans and their counterparts as two different characters. Let's take Fort Max as an example.

 

Fort Max has his own personality, which is nothing like the character that becomes his head->Cerebros. He has his own issues, and from what I've read he doesn't at first like the whole idea of becoming a Heamaster, but eventually agrees, and allows his Headmaster partner to be->Spike/the Nebulan Prince (forget his name), and he has his own views and stuff on war that may vary from the TFs.

 

See, so three separate personalities working togeter, so I would count Spike/Nebulan Prince as one TF, Cerebros as another, and Fort Max as a third.

 

As for shells and AM weapons, no sentience=no counting.

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Okay, so what about Mini-cons then?

That will be in an upcoming poll. As I said, this is just the first in a series of polls in an effort to democratically determine what we think should and should not count. I personally think that Mini-Cons should count separately, but we'll see what everyone else thinks too.

 

I count every sentient being as a Tf. ie: Nebulons and Mini cons each count as one. However a Headmaster does NOT count as two since without the Nebulon the Tf would have no head and suck. The same goes for Armada Overload and Energon magnus. They both count as one.

In all fairness, the rules have to be consistent. Either all Nebulans count or they don't - and likewise, either all Mini-Cons count or they don't. Things can start getting really subjective (well, more subjective than it already is) and messy if we're going to include a series of rules accompanied by a list of noted exceptions. I made that mistake last year with the rule about variants not counting but with the Substitution Rationale Exception rule... the moral of the story: don't invent rules that have exceptions to them. It's a lot easier for everyone if we create consistently uniform rules.

 

Also, depending on which continuity you go buy, it could be argued that a Headmaster's Nebulan and their Transformer/Transtector counterparts have different sentient personas.

 

And one could easily argue that figures like Six-Gun is a separately sentient Autobot from Metroplex - but if you're going to count Six-Gun, then we're going to have to count other accessory-formers like Scamper, Halftrack, Gasket, Grommet, Full-Tilt etc. - and I agree with you that these toys should NOT count as separate Transformers.

 

Hence I'm not going to ask "Should separately sentient Transformers count?" because people are going to argue over what should count as "separately sentient." It's best to just ask a series of polls in terms of what kinds of toys should and should not count.

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...again with this...instead of making 50 trillion threads why can't we just stick to one and work with that?

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It really seems like it's just the Nebulans that are causing some sort of debate...

I mean, if I have a Snapdragon, I probably wouldn't count the headmaster Krunk as a separate TF. On the other hand, if I ended up with headmasters Shuffler, Loafer, or Kaku/Kirk, I'd sure as damn hell would want to count those rare pieces in my TF-count... (yeah, I know that's kinda contradictory, and doesn't push the Nebulan argument in either direction...)

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It really seems like it's just the Nebulans that are causing some sort of debate...

I mean, if I have a Snapdragon, I probably wouldn't count the headmaster Krunk as a separate TF. On the other hand, if I ended up with headmasters Shuffler, Loafer, or Kaku/Kirk, I'd sure as damn hell would want to count those rare pieces in my TF-count... (yeah, I know that's kinda contradictory, and doesn't push the Nebulan argument in either direction...)

 

 

in the case of the headmasters, i don't think the nebulan is the problem so much as it's the body that would be lacking sans nebulan... at least thats my perception of it.

 

EDIT

 

actually why don't you settle this the easy way. headmaster bodys count as 1/2 while their heads count as 1/2. problem solved :-P

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The way I see it Nebulons should count. Take G1 Quake for example. Hes got two Nebulons so i think the set should count as 3 bots. When I was a kid I didn't even know what a Nebulon was. I just thought they were very small Transformers.

 

The thing about Headmasters and Armada Overload is that without the Nebulon/Minicon the figure doesnt even have a head so in this case it is the Nebulon/Minicon that you count, not the actual large body.

 

Infact, I see it as a head count if you will. (Oh and if anyone says, "My Beast Wars figures have two heads, so do they count as two?" i will kill them. You know what I mean.)

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The way I see it Nebulons should count. Take G1 Quake for example. Hes got two Nebulons so i think the set should count as 3 bots. When I was a kid I didn't even know what a Nebulon was. I just thought they were very small Transformers.

 

The thing about Headmasters and Armada Overload is that without the Nebulon/Minicon the figure doesnt even have a head so in this case it is the Nebulon/Minicon that you count, not the actual large body.

 

Infact, I see it as a head count if you will. (Oh and if anyone says, "My Beast Wars figures have two heads, so do they count as two?" i will kill them. You know what I mean.)

:pfx

 

That's hit the nail on the head for me near enough.

 

 

 

*doesn't count Pretender-shell's heads...*

 

*...or Action-Master's heads, just the transforming weapon's*

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