Inspired by a discussion in another topic (the many faces of Prime) I decided I wanted to hold a little poll.

 

Are the Japanese Headmaster/Masterforce and Victory series part of what we consider G1?

 

Before I start my arguments (which will lead to a firm no) I would like to express that I want to see well argumented posts here. I have good reasons to not consider the Japanese cartoons G1 and if anyone disagrees I would like to know why. Not simply the US cartoons are "ghey" or they suck. Tell us why you think so.

 

Here are my arguments for not considering the Japanese cartoons G1.

 

As everyone knows the Transformers originate from the Japanese Diaclone and Microchange lines. Hasbro imported the toys and named this new line Transformers. Along with Marvel and Sunbow they developed characters for these Transformers.

 

The tech specs on the packaging was a hit, I mean I loved the characters. Not only would one get 2 toys in 1 (a robot and a vehicle) but one with cool personality to boot. The cartoons portayed each Transformer well and so did the comic. Even though they did follow different storylines they stayed true to Transformers.

 

Then the show ended with Rebirth but the comics lived on for many more years. However the Japanese still made shows under the Transformers name, blatantly disregarding Rebirth, and I only learned of these shows later. I never liked them then and allthough they are more tolerable with the orginial audio, they are not all that good and to me, not an official part of G1

 

The main reason for me is that the Japanese cartoons are not G1 is because they do not capture the spirit of the G1 cartoon. In G1 the Transformers were very distinct characters none of which is seen in the Japanese cartoons.

 

And as I see it Hasbro and Marvel made Transformers into something. Sure the toys were a Japanese design but they developed the characters and the show. Given the success of other Japanese shows (or rather lack there of) in the US and Europe I think the Transformers would have done poorly if the cartoon had been made in Japan from the start.

 

So the Marvel comics are G1 simply because the characters were really developed in this series (just read the UK comics and one will be amazed indeed) and obviously the cartoon. Both stayed true to Transformers by making the Transformers living creatures and not automatons like in most Japanese cartoons (or pretty much all of them).

 

The Japanese series really butcher Transformers for me. Daniel is whiney and annoying and he "has" to come along everytime. So does Wheelie and we all know how much we hate that one. In Season 3 both were annoying but not that present. In Headmasters they take up a primary role which can only be conceived as truly annoying.

 

Headmasters idolize the headmasters and then the powermasters simply because they have new features. It is quite annoying to see seasoned Transformers not being able to win a fight only to be saved by the Headmasters. And then when the Targetmasters appear, they have to save the day (and the Headmasters) continiously.

 

And if their powers are low they can just swap heads which toywise is possible but storywise not as the binary bonding does link up the Transformer and the Nebulan on a mental level. Then again the Japanese do not even use that concept so in that respect it would work but it is quite silly. Even more silly is the concept of recharging one's powers by forming a circle with eachother.

 

The over importance of combiners is also annoying. It is nice to see a combiner in action but in G1 this was rarely used. And that made it so special. It is like a super weapon only used in extreme circumstances. But even then it rarely decided the battle which makes sense too. But the Japanese seem to feel that if it can combine it should. It is sickening indeed.

 

Likewise is the ignorance of the writers. All Transformers are generic or if they have a personality it is done inccorrectly. Chromedome is an impatient high strung warrior while he is actually a computer programmer. Highbrow is a stuck up snob and Braistorm is a scientist. The same with Computron, he is "just" another combiner instead of the living computer he is in G1.

 

The Japanese seem not to understand (or simply disregard) Transformer characters, not even the ones that were already established. Take a look at the new BTA line. Sunstreaker is in it even though that is the bot you would least expect to hang out with a human. Streaker picks on Bumblebee whom he considers useless. Well, then he would not care for humans at all.

 

Which leads me to my next point. The Japanese series is supposed to be a continuation from the US cartoon. Yet, they disregard Rebirth. And I admit the episode had its fault but I chalk that up to the fact that it was cut from 5 into 3 episodes.

 

Still the idea of binary bonding Transformers with Nebulons is really cool and I liked it. Each pair was also attuned (more or less) to eachother. Brainstorm and Arcana were perfectly paired up as were Duros and Hardhead. Highbrow and Gort however did not get along too well. But that made these guys cool.

 

But even if one can forgive that there is also the matter of the ignorance of G1 season 3 and the movie. (They ignored the best piece of G1!)

 

In Headmasters Galvatron is sane whereas he was quite the madman during season 3. Makes no sense at all. The Matrix did not cure him permintely because he is a creation of Unicron so he would be shielded from Matrix influences.

 

Other characters also appear. Many whom were supposed to have died in the movie. Prowl for instance is seen again. One could aruge that he was brought back to life but his body was in the tomb which was destroyed in "Dark Awakening".

 

Of course that episode was partially nullified by the Return of Optimus Prime but costs obviously prevented it from being remade and it aired before the decision to have Optimus Prime return was made. And it is quite a moving episode indeed so I do not mind.

 

I do mind this bit in the Japanese cartoons as these Transformers appear as background characters with no fuction to speak of. They should have used Mini-bots for that. But those guys are never seen. The same goes for Omega Supreme and Sky Linx. With all the space travel that is done in Headmasters one would assume those two were around.

 

In all, that is quite annoying indeed showing that the Japanese paid very little attention to the US season 3.

 

So the characters are different from the ones we know and whole approach to the cartoon is different with an emaphys on power instead of combat abilities. The story is quite bad too with many things I could only reply to by scratching my head.

 

The overimportance of several characters is one thing. I also found it annoying how Rodimus Prime was treated. Hot Rod once again was transformed into Rodimus Prime after being named successor by Optimus Prime. That means that Optimus trusted Rodimus to carry on his work.

 

Which would take away his self-doubt about himself and all that. So it makes sense that this is not present now. However, after the destruction of Cybertron he left to find a new world.  :eek  :wtf

 

How could he do that? He was named successor by Optimus. He should have led the Transformers in their darkest hour, not leave them behind to do a task that should have been delegated to Cosmos or Sky Linx. But this was just a really lame way to get rid of him and make Fortess Maximus the new leader.

 

The destruction of Cybertron also bugs me immensely. It is the home world of the Transformers and I can understand that Zarak has no love for it but that the Decepticons would still follow him after destroying it makes no sense at all. And in his smaller form Zarak is pretty defenseless so killing him is easy as pie, especially if all Deceptions would work together. Yes, they simply bow down, accept the destruction of their home and follow this usurper.

 

Then Galvatron returns and he does not even destroy Zarak. Starscream betrayed Megatron and left him for dead and he was turned into ash. And Zarak does far worse, not only trying to kill him but also destroying his homeworld from which he wanted to rule and now Galvatron lets him live!

 

Oh come on. G1 had some poor storylines but this one is worse than all of those put together!

 

And the final nail in the coffin is in terms of sound and music.

 

The thing that makes any series cool is the music, especially the intro. I mean the Star Wars and Star Trek themes are legendary. Same with Transformers, I have the G1 theme as ringtone on my cell phone but I bet a lot of people still know it.

 

Of course for each series the theme changed slightly but was still regocnizable. The text stayed the same: "Transformers more than meets the eye. Autobots wage their battle to destroy the evil Decepticons". And so on.  :tftongue  We all know the lyrics.

 

The theme is so legendary that for Cybertron the text was re-used. Ok, with mixed results perhaps but that is what made the Cybertron intro so darn cool. (For me anyways.)

 

But I can safely say that this theme personifies G1 as the Star Wars, Star Trek and Blackadder themes do for their shows.

 

What do the Japanese do? They make their own theme.  :eek Ok, granted it does sound ok but it is not G1 without the classic theme. Just as if would not be the same if a new Blackadder series is made with a completely new theme other than remaking the old theme in the style of the era the series takes place in.

 

They also compose new background music which sounds really bland to me. The classic G1 backgroud music is really unique and interesting. It really helped to make the show special. Good music is a key element to a good movie or show.

 

While trying to find sound clips I learned that for the earlier shows the Japanese also made their own themes. Probably to better suit the Japanese target audience but how could they do that to a pefect intro.  :eek

 

Still, it does explain why Headmaster does not use the classic intro and for the Japanese it does not matter but for me as G1 purist it does. Quite a bit actually.

 

Not sure about the soundeffects now but the classic Transformation sound was used but it was replaced but another lame effect used for the Headmasters. Again a big mistake. How many of us still make that sound (occasionally) when transforming a Transformer. Come on admit it.  :tftongue I still do.

 

Then the classic gun sound. Not used in these Japanese cartoons either. One can hardly copyright a soundeffect this generic so why not use it. I liked it, it had something.

 

So in short my reasons for not considering the Japanese cartoon G1:

 

1 Ignoring classic characters and rewriting their personality.

2 Disregarding of US cartoon, mainly Rebirth (a bad epsiode perhaps but still an official one).

3 Disregarding of classic G1 intro theme and background music.

4 Disregarding of the classic sound effects.

 

Add to that the Japanese storytelling which is completely different from the US cartoon and one has a cartoon that in no way captures the G1 spirit. It still looks like a G1 cartoon but does not sound and feel like it. And therefor it is not.

 

It does not fit in anywhere within the US cartoon series either. One CANNOT replace Rebirth which this series does. So there it does not fit. And Cyberton is destoyed in the Japanese cartoons and allthough it is rebuilt later Beast Machines features the Oracle, the super computer that foretold the coming of the Transformers to Cyberton and revealed its organic core.

 

Which does not match Cybertron being destroyed and then rebuilt because then there would be no fossils or organic core. And I am pretty sure no Oracle either. So the writers of Beast Machines probably decided that the Japanese cartoons (if they even knew of them) were non-canonical. And I agree.

 

As I see, it Transformers is a US propety. The G1 series was made in the US. Same goes for all the comics with G1 characters (Marvel, DW, IDW.) Even though every series is a different continuity they do stay true to the basic premise Transformers. That is what makes those series G1.

 

The Japanese are free to make their own cartoons but to them Transformers is not something special but more "another" anime cartoon featuring robots. At times I am not even sure if it is really Transformers because the humans (who play a side role in G1) are more and more imporant as the series progress. Same goes for the "everything has to combine" and overimportance of power.

 

I am sorry for the Japanese cartoon lovers but that just does not feel like Transformers anymore.

 

Beast Wars got it right, I fondly recall the Agenda 3 parter where Rattrap (who is not a particularly strong Transformer) using his street smarts and a LOTTA gus along with his own abilities brought down Ravage's ship.

 

He transformed into "Knievel mode" (brilliant reference) and using a fallen table managed to get on top of the ship. With a laser torch and his own rat mode teeth he made a whole and then passed on his "calling cards" to Turantulas.

 

Brilliant stuff indeed. No super powers, "mega blast" or super mode. Just one brave bot using his own regular abilities. How I long for those days to come back. The days when Transformers really stood out from all the other shows being aired.

 

In closing. I do realize G1 had faults but it did have a certain feel to it. A feel that is lacking from the Japanese cartoons. So therefor I cannot regard it as G1 especially since the storyline is also ignored in Beast Wars and Beast Machines.

They're g1 in japan, but nowhere else.

This is really an opinion more then anything else. You do realise that the Rebirth eps where made after the Headmasters? Rebirth is actually the toon that disregarded Headmasters and it's not the other way around.

 

Taking off from exactly the point where the previous season ended, the headmaster series are a perfect fit to S3. Takara's G1 website simply calls it season 4 and not an other continuity.

 

You not liking the japanese series for whatever reason doesn't mean it's not G1.

Not sure when Rebirth was made but I consider the US made cartoons to be official. Simply because the Japanese made Headmasters before the Rebirth was made does not make it official.

 

I do not like the Japanese series very much which is true. But that is not really the point. My reasons for not feeling it is G1 is because it misses a lot that G1 had even if it did start where G1 ended.

 

So in that respect I do not feel it is G1. I feel that the same way about when it comes to the Chucky movies. Bride of Chucky and Seed Of Chucky are enjoyable movies, they had barely anything in common with the first 2 movies and actually disregarded anything stated in them.

 

And of course as I mentioned, the disregarded destruction of Cybetron. Seeing Beast Wars was (later) made as a continuation of the G1 cartoon and Beast Machines contiued on Beast Wars that pretty much said to me that the Japanese cartoons are not part of the US G1 continuity.

 

Of course (and I will admit openly) I was only to happy to realize this.  :tftongue

No they aren`t our G1 but if you ask someone from Japan they`ll say that it is part of their G1 because it was. So I say it is more a matter of what you saw during G1 they didn`t see just our 4 seasons of G1 but also the seasons which the Japanese made. So to them the Japanese shows are just as G1 as the first 4 seasons.

 

So to the U.S. fans no but to the Japanese fans yes. :tfgrin

So from what generation would you say that Star Convoy is? Or; what shelf is it's destiny?

In Headmasters Galvatron is sane whereas he was quite the madman during season 3. Makes no sense at all. The Matrix did not cure him permintely because he is a creation of Unicron so he would be shielded from Matrix influences.

 

how would that sheild him from the matrix? that was kinda unicrons undoing..

 

The overimportance of several characters is one thing. I also found it annoying how Rodimus Prime was treated. Hot Rod once again was transformed into Rodimus Prime after being named successor by Optimus Prime. That means that Optimus trusted Rodimus to carry on his work.

 

that really did bug me. well cybertron's destroyed, im outa here fellas! our rodimus was a whiner but he wouldnt have done that.

 

The destruction of Cybertron also bugs me immensely.

every series of transformers has been centered around what folks? EFFING CYBERTRON. and they decide its not important enough to be included anymore? i hated that.

 

 

And the final nail in the coffin is in terms of sound and music.

 

i really didnt start watching those jap series' expecting to hear the same... anything as a matter of fact. just from experience of watching any anime. that wasnt a shocker for me.

 

Beast Wars got it right, I fondly recall the Agenda 3 parter where Rattrap (who is not a particularly strong Transformer) using his street smarts and a LOTTA gus along with his own abilities brought down Ravage's ship.

 

well in these days an episode prolly has a lot more work put into it than they used to. and bw had fewer characters in the show so that they could have special little moments for these characters to shine.

 

imo? i wouldnt include the jap series' due to the bw and bm continuity. there had to be a cybertron after the great war for these series' to exist. but that being said i do understand that headmasters and such are a part of g1. i just choose to ignore them.

No they aren`t our G1 but if you ask someone from Japan they`ll say that it is part of their G1 because it was. So I say it is more a matter of what you saw during G1 they didn`t see just our 4 seasons of G1 but also the seasons which the Japanese made. So to them the Japanese shows are just as G1 as the first 4 seasons.

 

So to the U.S. fans no but to the Japanese fans yes. :tfgrin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Excellent point indeed. Very insightful. I should have realized it myself.  :tftongue

 

Anyways, I think Star Convoy is just another bot who looks like Optimus Prime but is not. Similar to how the Japanese see Ginrai.

 

I too try to ignore these series as best as I can just as Star Wars fans probably ignore episodes 1 and 2.

G1 is G1, and will always be G1. Irregardless of where it was created.

 

The stories I've heard, if Transformers had continued, Hasbro would of tried meshing Japanese Headmasters into the "Rebirth" storyline....which means we'd be getting an earlier equivalent of "Cybertron". And like it or not, but the way they handled Rebirth, you'd have to be putting up with Daniel every episode as he was the head of the ONLY friggin' female TF that actually has screentime in the series.

 

Also, just trying to say it's not G1 because it doesn't have the G1 theme is the most asinine thing I've heard. Japan NEVER had the G1 theme, it was always their own music. With this way of thought, you should also consider JTF Seasons 1, 2 and 3 not to be G1, either.

 

As for the movie, if I recall correctly, Japan didn't show the film until the early 90's...waaay after many of these series(at least three, I think.) were produced, and wasn't considered canon until a few years ago.

 

So, even if you dislike the series, they're still G1. There isn't any arguements over whether or not DW or IDW's G1 is G1...so why put up a fuss for the shows?

 

Aoi

The G1 theme is a classic song which is still remembered by a lot of people. So I associate it with G1.

 

The fact that the Japanese removed it their fault. It is as if one would remove the Star Wars intro and replace it with something else.

 

Same goes for the movie. I mean it is the best Transformers cartoon ever made. If they choose not to show it in cinema's then that is their problem.

 

As I mentioned before the Marvel/DW/IDW comics capture the essense of Transformers. Living machines who think and feel. Robots with distinct personalities. So I see each as a different take on G1.

 

The Japanese series looked like G1 but did not feel like it as far as I am concerned.

 

And I did not mind Daniel that much in the US series, it was the Japanese series where he got really annoying. Plus in Rebirth it made sense for him to be there seeing he had to be binary bonded to Arcee whereas in Headmasters he was just there for small kids to associate with.

 

Arcee did not have much screentime in the Headmasters cartoon and no action scenes as far as I recall. But the writers barely knew what to do with "male" Transformers so a female one was probably too much for them.