Headmasters simply did not appeal to me as much as it should. Mostly because of the Japanese influences but there were cool episodes. The start was quite strong.

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I got turned off from it because every episode was like "will I see Scorponok now?" and it didn't happen so I stopped watching.

Well, apparently I'm in the majority...with this issue

Inspired by a discussion in another topic (the many faces of Prime) I decided I wanted to hold a little poll.

 

Are the Japanese Headmaster/Masterforce and Victory series part of what we consider G1?

 

Before I start my arguments (which will lead to a firm no) I would like to express that I want to see well argumented posts here. I have good reasons to not consider the Japanese cartoons G1 and if anyone disagrees I would like to know why. Not simply the US cartoons are "ghey" or they suck. Tell us why you think so.

 

Here are my arguments for not considering the Japanese cartoons G1.

 

As everyone knows the Transformers originate from the Japanese Diaclone and Microchange lines. Hasbro imported the toys and named this new line Transformers. Along with Marvel and Sunbow they developed characters for these Transformers.

 

The tech specs on the packaging was a hit, I mean I loved the characters. Not only would one get 2 toys in 1 (a robot and a vehicle) but one with cool personality to boot. The cartoons portayed each Transformer well and so did the comic. Even though they did follow different storylines they stayed true to Transformers.

 

Then the show ended with Rebirth but the comics lived on for many more years. However the Japanese still made shows under the Transformers name, blatantly disregarding Rebirth, and I only learned of these shows later. I never liked them then and allthough they are more tolerable with the orginial audio, they are not all that good and to me, not an official part of G1

 

The main reason for me is that the Japanese cartoons are not G1 is because they do not capture the spirit of the G1 cartoon. In G1 the Transformers were very distinct characters none of which is seen in the Japanese cartoons.

 

And as I see it Hasbro and Marvel made Transformers into something. Sure the toys were a Japanese design but they developed the characters and the show. Given the success of other Japanese shows (or rather lack there of) in the US and Europe I think the Transformers would have done poorly if the cartoon had been made in Japan from the start.

 

So the Marvel comics are G1 simply because the characters were really developed in this series (just read the UK comics and one will be amazed indeed) and obviously the cartoon. Both stayed true to Transformers by making the Transformers living creatures and not automatons like in most Japanese cartoons (or pretty much all of them).

 

The Japanese series really butcher Transformers for me. Daniel is whiney and annoying and he "has" to come along everytime. So does Wheelie and we all know how much we hate that one. In Season 3 both were annoying but not that present. In Headmasters they take up a primary role which can only be conceived as truly annoying.

 

Headmasters idolize the headmasters and then the powermasters simply because they have new features. It is quite annoying to see seasoned Transformers not being able to win a fight only to be saved by the Headmasters. And then when the Targetmasters appear, they have to save the day (and the Headmasters) continiously.

 

And if their powers are low they can just swap heads which toywise is possible but storywise not as the binary bonding does link up the Transformer and the Nebulan on a mental level. Then again the Japanese do not even use that concept so in that respect it would work but it is quite silly. Even more silly is the concept of recharging one's powers by forming a circle with eachother.

 

The over importance of combiners is also annoying. It is nice to see a combiner in action but in G1 this was rarely used. And that made it so special. It is like a super weapon only used in extreme circumstances. But even then it rarely decided the battle which makes sense too. But the Japanese seem to feel that if it can combine it should. It is sickening indeed.

 

Likewise is the ignorance of the writers. All Transformers are generic or if they have a personality it is done inccorrectly. Chromedome is an impatient high strung warrior while he is actually a computer programmer. Highbrow is a stuck up snob and Braistorm is a scientist. The same with Computron, he is "just" another combiner instead of the living computer he is in G1.

 

The Japanese seem not to understand (or simply disregard) Transformer characters, not even the ones that were already established. Take a look at the new BTA line. Sunstreaker is in it even though that is the bot you would least expect to hang out with a human. Streaker picks on Bumblebee whom he considers useless. Well, then he would not care for humans at all.

 

Which leads me to my next point. The Japanese series is supposed to be a continuation from the US cartoon. Yet, they disregard Rebirth. And I admit the episode had its fault but I chalk that up to the fact that it was cut from 5 into 3 episodes.

 

Still the idea of binary bonding Transformers with Nebulons is really cool and I liked it. Each pair was also attuned (more or less) to eachother. Brainstorm and Arcana were perfectly paired up as were Duros and Hardhead. Highbrow and Gort however did not get along too well. But that made these guys cool.

 

But even if one can forgive that there is also the matter of the ignorance of G1 season 3 and the movie. (They ignored the best piece of G1!)

 

In Headmasters Galvatron is sane whereas he was quite the madman during season 3. Makes no sense at all. The Matrix did not cure him permintely because he is a creation of Unicron so he would be shielded from Matrix influences.

 

Other characters also appear. Many whom were supposed to have died in the movie. Prowl for instance is seen again. One could aruge that he was brought back to life but his body was in the tomb which was destroyed in "Dark Awakening".

 

Of course that episode was partially nullified by the Return of Optimus Prime but costs obviously prevented it from being remade and it aired before the decision to have Optimus Prime return was made. And it is quite a moving episode indeed so I do not mind.

 

I do mind this bit in the Japanese cartoons as these Transformers appear as background characters with no fuction to speak of. They should have used Mini-bots for that. But those guys are never seen. The same goes for Omega Supreme and Sky Linx. With all the space travel that is done in Headmasters one would assume those two were around.

 

In all, that is quite annoying indeed showing that the Japanese paid very little attention to the US season 3.

 

So the characters are different from the ones we know and whole approach to the cartoon is different with an emaphys on power instead of combat abilities. The story is quite bad too with many things I could only reply to by scratching my head.

 

The overimportance of several characters is one thing. I also found it annoying how Rodimus Prime was treated. Hot Rod once again was transformed into Rodimus Prime after being named successor by Optimus Prime. That means that Optimus trusted Rodimus to carry on his work.

 

Which would take away his self-doubt about himself and all that. So it makes sense that this is not present now. However, after the destruction of Cybertron he left to find a new world.  :eek  :wtf

 

How could he do that? He was named successor by Optimus. He should have led the Transformers in their darkest hour, not leave them behind to do a task that should have been delegated to Cosmos or Sky Linx. But this was just a really lame way to get rid of him and make Fortess Maximus the new leader.

 

The destruction of Cybertron also bugs me immensely. It is the home world of the Transformers and I can understand that Zarak has no love for it but that the Decepticons would still follow him after destroying it makes no sense at all. And in his smaller form Zarak is pretty defenseless so killing him is easy as pie, especially if all Deceptions would work together. Yes, they simply bow down, accept the destruction of their home and follow this usurper.

 

Then Galvatron returns and he does not even destroy Zarak. Starscream betrayed Megatron and left him for dead and he was turned into ash. And Zarak does far worse, not only trying to kill him but also destroying his homeworld from which he wanted to rule and now Galvatron lets him live!

 

Oh come on. G1 had some poor storylines but this one is worse than all of those put together!

 

And the final nail in the coffin is in terms of sound and music.

 

The thing that makes any series cool is the music, especially the intro. I mean the Star Wars and Star Trek themes are legendary. Same with Transformers, I have the G1 theme as ringtone on my cell phone but I bet a lot of people still know it.

 

Of course for each series the theme changed slightly but was still regocnizable. The text stayed the same: "Transformers more than meets the eye. Autobots wage their battle to destroy the evil Decepticons". And so on.  :tftongue  We all know the lyrics.

 

The theme is so legendary that for Cybertron the text was re-used. Ok, with mixed results perhaps but that is what made the Cybertron intro so darn cool. (For me anyways.)

 

But I can safely say that this theme personifies G1 as the Star Wars, Star Trek and Blackadder themes do for their shows.

 

What do the Japanese do? They make their own theme.  :eek Ok, granted it does sound ok but it is not G1 without the classic theme. Just as if would not be the same if a new Blackadder series is made with a completely new theme other than remaking the old theme in the style of the era the series takes place in.

 

They also compose new background music which sounds really bland to me. The classic G1 backgroud music is really unique and interesting. It really helped to make the show special. Good music is a key element to a good movie or show.

 

While trying to find sound clips I learned that for the earlier shows the Japanese also made their own themes. Probably to better suit the Japanese target audience but how could they do that to a pefect intro.  :eek

 

Still, it does explain why Headmaster does not use the classic intro and for the Japanese it does not matter but for me as G1 purist it does. Quite a bit actually.

 

Not sure about the soundeffects now but the classic Transformation sound was used but it was replaced but another lame effect used for the Headmasters. Again a big mistake. How many of us still make that sound (occasionally) when transforming a Transformer. Come on admit it.  :tftongue I still do.

 

Then the classic gun sound. Not used in these Japanese cartoons either. One can hardly copyright a soundeffect this generic so why not use it. I liked it, it had something.

 

So in short my reasons for not considering the Japanese cartoon G1:

 

1 Ignoring classic characters and rewriting their personality.

2 Disregarding of US cartoon, mainly Rebirth (a bad epsiode perhaps but still an official one).

3 Disregarding of classic G1 intro theme and background music.

4 Disregarding of the classic sound effects.

 

Add to that the Japanese storytelling which is completely different from the US cartoon and one has a cartoon that in no way captures the G1 spirit. It still looks like a G1 cartoon but does not sound and feel like it. And therefor it is not.

 

It does not fit in anywhere within the US cartoon series either. One CANNOT replace Rebirth which this series does. So there it does not fit. And Cyberton is destoyed in the Japanese cartoons and allthough it is rebuilt later Beast Machines features the Oracle, the super computer that foretold the coming of the Transformers to Cyberton and revealed its organic core.

 

Which does not match Cybertron being destroyed and then rebuilt because then there would be no fossils or organic core. And I am pretty sure no Oracle either. So the writers of Beast Machines probably decided that the Japanese cartoons (if they even knew of them) were non-canonical. And I agree.

 

As I see, it Transformers is a US propety. The G1 series was made in the US. Same goes for all the comics with G1 characters (Marvel, DW, IDW.) Even though every series is a different continuity they do stay true to the basic premise Transformers. That is what makes those series G1.

 

The Japanese are free to make their own cartoons but to them Transformers is not something special but more "another" anime cartoon featuring robots. At times I am not even sure if it is really Transformers because the humans (who play a side role in G1) are more and more imporant as the series progress. Same goes for the "everything has to combine" and overimportance of power.

 

I am sorry for the Japanese cartoon lovers but that just does not feel like Transformers anymore.

 

Beast Wars got it right, I fondly recall the Agenda 3 parter where Rattrap (who is not a particularly strong Transformer) using his street smarts and a LOTTA gus along with his own abilities brought down Ravage's ship.

 

He transformed into "Knievel mode" (brilliant reference) and using a fallen table managed to get on top of the ship. With a laser torch and his own rat mode teeth he made a whole and then passed on his "calling cards" to Turantulas.

 

Brilliant stuff indeed. No super powers, "mega blast" or super mode. Just one brave bot using his own regular abilities. How I long for those days to come back. The days when Transformers really stood out from all the other shows being aired.

 

In closing. I do realize G1 had faults but it did have a certain feel to it. A feel that is lacking from the Japanese cartoons. So therefor I cannot regard it as G1 especially since the storyline is also ignored in Beast Wars and Beast Machines.

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That's the most sh*t typed in a single post that I have seen since I joined this board.  :eek

lmoa, yeah, i kinda stopped reading  :redface 

 

but i would have to say "YES" to the topic, i do infact consider them G1,  nuff said.

I have never heard of the big book of Masterforce but just like the US comics may be completely unrelated to the cartoons. Or not, it is always hard to figure out. In case of Star Trek, the books are considered to be non canonical but they do have to correspond with one and other so if one characrter dies in one book another writer cannot have that character appear all of a sudden.

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The Big Book of Masterforce was a clipshow that showed what happened in Super God Masterforce and also gave away some "secrets" about characters in Super God Masterforce and also served as a preview for Victory.  Download it from TVNihon. 

 

Wheeljack died in the movie as well so it would be hard to appear in anything after the movie. I know the movie was not broadcast in Japan for a long time but the Japanse episodes are not showing many G1 characters. I do not see Wheeljack, Ironhide, Ratchet or any of the minibots. The Dinobots made only one appereance which was a bit odd as well seeing they are some of the only first season characters to make it into season 3.

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Why would they?  The entire focus of Transformers as a television show is to get people to buy toys.  Case in point how come you dont see Sideswipe or Sunstreker on Galaxy Force.  They dont want to sell old toys they want to push new toys.  Secondly, most of the G1 characters you think should be showing up are dead and if they are alive DONT EVEN SHOW UP IN REBIRTH!!!!

 

The introduction of Micromaster in the cartoons was simply because the toys were downsized to compete with the Micro machines line. In the comics it was attributed to energy concerns which if it was mentioned in the cartoons, corresponded with Beast Wars.

 

But that would still not match 100% as Cybertron was destroyed in the Japanese cartoons which does not match the Beast Machines explanation. And seeing how I feel BM takes precedent over the Japanse cartoons the latter cannot fit within the US G1/BW/BM continuity.

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Who said that Cybertron had to be the same Cybertron.  In the G2 comic we see that Bludgeon created several mini-cybertrons so is it hard to belive that they could have created another one.  I dont ever recall taht Cybertron had an organic core in G1 either so that must mean that the two are not linked right ???

I think that when it comes right down to it, will those that are in a position to handle any official G1 storytelling take the Japanese shows into account?  I would think not.  Yes, Dreamwave had a couple of shots where Megatron traveled to the depths of Cybertron and found giant statues of LioKaiser (or whoever) and another Japanese-only character, but like with how they're handling Magmatron in the BW comic series, it will be those characters in likeness and name only.  Any story they would have gotten would undoubtedly vary quite significantly from what Japanese television sets showed 15 years ago.

 

And that's basically it in a nutshell.  Comic book and movie writers that Hasbro selects to run with the official 'G1' mythos will reference the G1 cartoon and comics heavily, they will hold BW as unbendable (or only slightly bendable) cannon, and anything from Japan, well, they can pick and choose elements that they think might work but will wind up discarding the vast majority of it.

 

So, if it's not to be considered by the modern G1 storytellers as a part of G1, then who should it be considered by?  It didn't air outside of Japan, so gaijin children who grew up with G1 had no knowledge of it.  Only a tiny portion of those dedicated fans that either maintained or renewed their interest in TF's bothered to find out about it years later through the internet or tapes bought in Asian stores. 

 

I think a good way to look at it is how the Highlander series was handled (no, not a Highlander fan, but I did like the first movie as a kid and my roommate in college watched the show all the time).  The first movie (which is to be likened to American G1) came out and was popular (well, in Europe anyway).  It spawned Highlander 2 (to be likened to Japanese G1 series).  Years later, when they wanted to renew and continue the mythos, what happened to Highlander 2?  That's right, they pretended it never happened.  And that's exactly what offical modern era TF writers and most fans (the results of this poll, which as of now has less than 20 votes, doesn't seem to me to be statistically significant) will do with Japanese TF series, whether G1, BW or the Micronverse.

The movie has always been pat of japanese contuity, they just never saw it untill the early '90s the events were sumerized for them in FFOD just like they were in thye US, the Manga also features a little retelling of the events.

 

How is this 100% destroyed?

 

Convoy gave the Matrix to Rodimus Convoy becuse he had to sacrafice himself to repear Vecter Sigma, plus the Transformers respect Rodimus unlike some fans

 

Skylinx and Omega Supream wern't used as often becuse the Cybertrons had thier own spacebridgeand Fortress Maximus' Battleship mode

 

I think that the Destrons nolonger looked at Seibertron as thier homeworld, it was conquerd by the Cybertrons now, better to have No Seibertron than a Seibertron in thier hands.

G1 is any TF produced material between 1984 and start of the G2 line.

Then by that line of reasoning, the BW Manga in Japanese magazines should be considered official cannon that Furman needs to reference and try not to contradict when writing the IDW BW comic.

 

Going by a very loose definition, you're right.  All TF material prior to G2 falls under the G1 umbrella.  But I believe the question at hand is whether fans take into account the Japanese series when they think of G1.

First of all. Cybertron was not conquered by the Autobots. Conquered is a word used when people invade another planet, kill and/or opress all the people living on it and claim it as their own.

 

Both the Autobots and Deceptions are the same race and during the movie the Decepticons held control over Cybertron which means that this could happen again in the future. In fact if I was the leader I would remind my people that we once were victorious and it will happen again but we must fight on.

 

Even if is under enemy control Cybertron is still the home of the Decepticons. I would die trying to reclaim my home but I would not destroy it even to keep my enemies from having it.

 

Do note that we are talking about mechanical life here. The Autobots may like the company of humans and organic life but the Decepticons view organics as pest (and from their viewpoint they are right) and would not likely make another world their home base on a permanent basis. Their goal is to rule the galaxy with Cybertron as its capital.

 

There is also very little point in destroying it seeing how the Autobots were already settled in on Earth and Athenea giving them two backup bases. It is actually a huge mistake actually and one the Decepticons should have destroyed Zarak for because it does help the Autobots (after they are done being demoralized).

 

Instead of having to defend 3 planets one has to defend only 2 allowing the Autobots to increase their forces in the bases that are left. Great move there Zarak.  :tfmad

 

That picture does look quite destroyed to me. Just like a badly damaged house, there is very little to save. And seeing how the core of Cybertron is destroyed I doubt the organic core and the Oracle survived. I mean you only see the shell, there is no telling how bad the innards are damaged.