If duplicate transformers count - then 90% of customs are essentially a duplicate transformer.

By that logic I would say that repaints counts, but kitbashes/scratchbuilds don't. After all, you could scratchbuild a Transformer from non-Transformer toys like KOs, Roadbots, model kits, Gundams etc. which would conflict with Article01 (stating that only official/legit TF products count). Unless you were to state that scratchbuilds can only count if constructed from parts of legit TFs.

 

Someone on another board submitted the argument that repaints can count because they can be easily restored into their original state. i.e.: if you strip the paint you get the original toy. Kitbashes don't count because they cannot be easily restored. If you purchased a kitbash composed of various parts of several different Transformers and other toys, even if you strip the paint and disassembled it you couldn't restore it back to its original state ... depending on how extensive the modification has been and whether or not you have the other parts of those toys to restore them. Either way, it is absolutely not a simple effort to restore it as you would with a custom.

 

Looking at the examples I've provided, if you stripped the paint off Lexicon you could easily restore the reissue Goldbug toy underneath. But I wouldn't be able to restore Goktimus Primal into Optimus Primal. You'd have to find a spare Optimus Primal head and shoulder pads.

 

Only count if constructed from parts of legit TFs. if any KO parts are involved that wouldn't remove it unless the KO was the basis for the whole thing. For instance my Menasor:

 

You'll note that the cab of Motormaster is movie Armorhide, and the arms, and legs are from E Barricade. While the part that make the trailer a trailer are from a KO PM OP. So over all the kit bash should count since the figure is made up mainly of real TFs, and only parts needed to get the desired effect are from a KO. Now the trailer, and cab still only = 1 TF since they are part and parcel.

if scratchbuilt "transformers" count then we may as well just throw the results on a fire

fwiw I share your sentiments but at the same time I want to assure folks that Article20 will be based on the majority consensus according to the poll outcome. As I said in my initial post here, I don't think any customs should count - but that's just my personal opinion. Whatever the majority vote on will ultimately dictate how customs will be counted under the UCM.

 

And this thread is the opportunity for everyone to voice their opinions and argue their cases for their opinions on how customs should be counted. Don't come back later when it's too late and argue over an article after it's been set. In other words, speak now or forever hold your peace. :)

 

I strongly encourage further debate on the counting of customs but would like to remind folks not to continue debating over issues relating to existing articles (e.g.: counting gestalts, Mini-Cons, Nebulans etc.) on this thread. The opportunity to debate those issues has passed. And likewise the opportunity to debate the counting of customs will pass too once this poll is finished - so please do continue to debate about counting customs.

 

And remember, if this discussion disagrees with you - then don't read it!

 

THANK YOU to everyone who's been participating properly and constructively. :)

I also count my mini-cons that came in a 3 pack as seperate transformers. Seriously, they are each unique individuals. It would be stupid for Hasbro to sell them seperately. How much would they go for, $.50???

 

I also count retoolings and repaints in my inventory. For example. I really needed a G1 Cliffjumper and Bumblebee for my display. I had several unopened packs of the key chain versions. I opened them up and surgically removed the little loop on their shoulders and painted over the mark with black paint. Voila !!! I had a Cliffjumper and Bumblebee. I don't like including kitbashes because they weren't originally made by Hasbro or Tomy/Takara. Although there are some professional looking creations out there, I have seen some pretty crappy kitbashes before as well.

I also count my mini-cons that came in a 3 pack as seperate transformers. Seriously, they are each unique individuals. It would be stupid for Hasbro to sell them seperately. How much would they go for, $.50???

I have repeatedly asked people NOT to derail this thread with off-topic discussion about other TF counting criteria. This thread is for the discussion of counting customs ONLY. Any further attempts to derail this thread will be reported. Thank you.

 

I also count retoolings and repaints in my inventory. For example. I really needed a G1 Cliffjumper and Bumblebee for my display. I had several unopened packs of the key chain versions. I opened them up and surgically removed the little loop on their shoulders and painted over the mark with black paint. Voila !!! I had a Cliffjumper and Bumblebee. I don't like including kitbashes because they weren't originally made by Hasbro or Tomy/Takara. Although there are some professional looking creations out there, I have seen some pretty crappy kitbashes before as well.

So you would hopefully have voted on the third poll option - repaints and retools for repairs & cosmetic improvement. That's what I've voted on and I fully agree for the reasons you've cited.

 

Btw the keychain Bumblebee reissue's yellow is brighter than other Bumblebees (original G1, TFC and Encore reissues have a darker more cadmium yellow). Still not that ridiculously bright yellow that Hasbro have used on Animated Deluxe* Bumblebee and Universe Sunstreaker though - keychain Bumblebee's yellow is still tasteful. ;)

 

*Activator and Legends Animated Bumblebee's yellow are a nicer deeper (and unified) shade of yellow.

I also count my mini-cons that came in a 3 pack as seperate transformers. Seriously, they are each unique individuals. It would be stupid for Hasbro to sell them seperately. How much would they go for, $.50???

I have repeatedly asked people NOT to derail this thread with off-topic discussion about other TF counting criteria. This thread is for the discussion of counting customs ONLY. Any further attempts to derail this thread will be reported. Thank you.

 

Well, first off, my ORIGINAL attempt was not to derail this thread, so my apologies are extended.

 

 

So you would hopefully have voted on the third poll option - repaints and retools for repairs & cosmetic improvement. That's what I've voted on and I fully agree for the reasons you've cited.

 

Btw the keychain Bumblebee reissue's yellow is brighter than other Bumblebees (original G1, TFC and Encore reissues have a darker more cadmium yellow). Still not that ridiculously bright yellow that Hasbro have used on Animated Deluxe* Bumblebee and Universe Sunstreaker though - keychain Bumblebee's yellow is still tasteful. ;)

 

*Activator and Legends Animated Bumblebee's yellow are a nicer deeper (and unified) shade of yellow.

Yes, I voted for the third option. I feel it's the best way to handle customs. As far as my Bumblebee keychain, it's temporary until I get either the encore or find one. The only real G1 Bumblebee I have is a red one.

The only real G1 Bumblebee I have is a red one.

Which is not Cliffjumper - you hear that Archer?!? :khaaan

Here are the final results:

 

35.6% All customs count

19.3% Repaints and slight retools count but kitbashes don't

21.56% Only repaints/retools for repair & cosmetic improvement count

23.54% None of them should count

 

Hence the new article will state that all customs count but remember that under Article01 only products manufactured under licence from Hasbro and/or Takara(TOMY) as part of the Transfomers brand can count, therefore only customs made entirely from licensed Transformers products count. If the custom contains part of a toy that is not an official Transformers product, then it does not count as it would be negated by Article01.

 

Thanks to everybody who participated. :)

 

P.S.: Rodimus VTS: A decision was made that only customs entirely made from legit TFs would count. I brought up your suggestion of customs mainly comprised of legit TFs as counting but someone pointed out that everyone would have a different definition of "mainly" and that people would get into arguments over what should and shouldn't count as "mainly." It's just part of the KISS principle (the UCM is confusing enough as it is!). Thanks for understanding. :)

Here are the final results:

 

35.6% All customs count

19.3% Repaints and slight retools count but kitbashes don't

21.56% Only repaints/retools for repair & cosmetic improvement count

23.54% None of them should count

 

Not to be a bugger, but I would think (as someone who put "none of them should count" for official comparison purposes) that the majority of those who picked "none" would probably sway their votes to one of the "repaint/retool" options. They are all so close that one of those would have won over if put to re-vote.

 

 

Any how, I normally don't vehemently disagree with this counting system (although a few are dodgy) but this one is a no-go for me.

 

By these rules the ugliest Transformer half-ass dunked into a bucket of paint and left to dry would count but a beautiful hand crafted figure that is a spitting image of an un-produced character wouldn't... Given the option, for me the latter would count more than the former. I just ranting, yes - but it's my opinion on the whole thing...

Here are the final results:

 

35.6% All customs count

19.3% Repaints and slight retools count but kitbashes don't

21.56% Only repaints/retools for repair & cosmetic improvement count

23.54% None of them should count

 

Hence the new article will state that all customs count but remember that under Article01 only products manufactured under licence from Hasbro and/or Takara(TOMY) as part of the Transfomers brand can count, therefore only customs made entirely from licensed Transformers products count. If the custom contains part of a toy that is not an official Transformers product, then it does not count as it would be negated by Article01.

 

Thanks to everybody who participated. :)

 

P.S.: Rodimus VTS: A decision was made that only customs entirely made from legit TFs would count. I brought up your suggestion of customs mainly comprised of legit TFs as counting but someone pointed out that everyone would have a different definition of "mainly" and that people would get into arguments over what should and shouldn't count as "mainly." It's just part of the KISS principle (the UCM is confusing enough as it is!). Thanks for understanding. :)

 

Ok so ALL customs count, but only if they are entirely made from officially licensed TFs made by Has/Takomy? Ok so according to this only repaints count? That is the only way aside from head swaps that a figure can be made entirely from Official TFs. I mean if you take a tank toy gut it and rebuild it onto a Starscream to make Blitzwing then that doesn't count from what you're saying even though according to the voting ALL customs count. Also a custom made using styrene, ABS, or PVC added to a TF to make it into another character wouldn't count by what you're saying even though the voting says ALL customs count.

 

It sounds like you want to make up side rules even though the poll's outcome was that ALL customs count. So according to what Article 20 now must state (according to the poll's outcome) as long as you build whoever you make around a TF it counts no matter what other parts you add to it from what ever source. Period. You can't go in and edit it to say it only counts if the custom is made entirely from licensed TF parts.

There is no "side rule" being placed here, I am merely enforcing Article01 which is based on the legal definition of what constitutes a Transformer: that it can only be a product manufactured under licence by Hasbro Inc. and/or Takara(TOMY) Co., Ltd. and specifically marketed as part of the "Transformers" brand.

 

And this is nothing new. Other articles have similar disclaimers such as:

+ Pre-Transformers such as Diaclones, Micro-Change, Macross, Dorvack, Beetras etc. don't count. (Article01)

+ Beastformers count, but Battle Beasts don't. They're the same toys but Takara marketed them as part of the Transformers line but Hasbro did not. (Article15)

 

Whenever a new article is added, there may be a disclaimer added to prevent it from conflicting or contradicting with other articles. To allow customs that contain non-TF components would contradict Article01, therefore it cannot be allowed.

 

None of the articles are intended to be interpreted or exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the Universal Counting Method as defined in other articles.