What makes a character male or female is not their "programming" since Transformers are living organisms not mere machines. What makes a being male or female is not their personalities, That just makes them masculine or effeminate, just as you can have a very masculine woman or a very effeminate man. It is their bodies that makes them male or female. Being male or female is physical, down to the most fundamental levels, not behavioral, "masculine" and "feminine" are behavioral/cultural, but even those are dependent upon an individual being physically male or female.

No. They're not living organisms. They are robots.

"Robots in Disguise"? It's in the theme song. It's on the packaging. It was even the name of a TF cartoon series!

They are machines. Machines that have incredibly complex AI and are capable of self awarness, but machines non the less. As machines nothing about their bodies is fundamentally masculin or feminin. Their bodies are just wires, processors, conduits, etc.... It's their personalities, aka their progamming, that makes them "male" or "female."

Physically they're gender neutral.

 

Female TFers have always been shown to have more slending bodies (and stripper boots) because that's just an easy way to convey "this is a girl" to the franchise's primary audience, kids. It's a tool used to tell a story, not anything indictitive of a TFer being fundamentally female. A machine can't be fundamentally male or female. It's all in their programming.

 

***I know that this continues a discussion that we rather not have, especially one including Tramp. I posted this response because I felt like the voice of reason needed to be aired on the subject in response to Tramp's "argument."

To avoid continued public disucssion of this topic I won't respond to any response posted on this topic.

I'm always up for a good discussion, however; if Tramp really wants to respond he's invited to send me a PM. Lets keep this topic out of the public eye though.***

No, Agent Zero, they are not just "robots" They're robotic life forms. This is explicitly stated in many canon sources from the original cartoon, to the DW More than Meets the Eye books, and even the new movie. All specifically state that Transformers are living organisms, not mere "robots". They have genes, they heal and regenerate tissue through cellular replication. In the very first episode of the cartoon, the narrator specifically states that Cybertron is home to robotic life. In MtMtE #8, it refers to the Transformers as life forms repeatedly throughout the book. One specific passage in particular says, "The denizens of Cybertron are among the most powerful and gifted life forms, mechanical or otherwise, in the known universe." In the movie, Optimus Prime tells Sam and Mikela, "We are Autonomous robotic organisms from the planet Cybertron."Note the bolded words in those two quotes. "Life forms", "organisms". transformers are living beings, not simple robots like on Earth. As living organisms with genes, with self-replicating cells (composed of nanomachines), they are quite capable of being physically male and female.

 

 

An "Organism" denotes something that is composed of organs. Now, if those organs are metal and silicon, that qualifies; a human is no less an organism if he or she has artificial parts replaing original ones. True, they still have their original parts that remain, but at what point would they cease being an organism? In Star Trek, Data was considered a cybernetic organism, and he was considered a life form, albeit he did not reproduce in the human meaning of the word.

 

As for life, how should we define that? Does one have to replicate every facet of a fleshly organism before it is considered life? And from the phrase, LIFE FORMS, denotes that life itself can take on various forms that don't always follow the 'norm" that we consider to be the rule rather than the exception. As I have heard it explained, Life 1) stores information, 2) processes energy, and 3) reproduces. Now, Transformers don't reproduce like we do, but they do create progeny of sorts.

 

But GENES? That is a trait unique to flesh and blood creatures. DNA is a chemical way to store information; cybernetic beings have no need for that, since their systems are already set up for that purpose.

 

 

So, while they are robotic life forms, they do NOT have genes, or heal cellularly. BTW: metal, because of it's microscopic crystalline nature (hence metal shearing and fractures), would NOT be suitable for containing genes. The reason why is that metal crystals, in comparison to DNA and its cousin RNA, hold a very low amount of information, and tends to be very repetitive. DNA, on the other hand, tends to be highly specialized and contains MASSIVE amounts of information that is extremely diverse. Due to the very nature of metal, any sort of "growth" along normal means would fracture the very fabric of the metal, defeating the purpose of the process.

 

Finally, as for being "male" and "female", anatomy alone does NOT determine that; men and women here have differing psyches as well as thought processes and mindsets. I suspect the same is true for the transformers. And in their case, anaotmy would make very little difference to them.

Any further discussion of transformer 'mating' will result in warns.

:clap

I hate to say "I told you so"...But I did. :P

My grandma always told me that this is how it went down.

 

Every so often a transformer just gets too awesome. When this happens, time and space freeze for a moment, and Ryu Hayabusa cuts through the TF dimension with a Sharknife.

 

At this point he chops off some arbitrary limb of said transformer and uses a Ninpo technique to infuse awesome into each part. The measure of the awesome of each piece can be quantified by taking the absolute value of the the original Transformer (T₀), and sending it through a for loop.

 

This for loop would increment the awesome of abs(T₀) by 1 with each iteration. The quantity of iterations would be determined by the maximum amount of sit-ups Ryu Hayabusa is capable of completing on that given day. Granted, this would be a random variable... however its value would steadily and infinitely increase exponentially with the passage of time. Its value as of this writing is 4.42 x 10⁹.

 

Finally, this value becomes the new awesome level of each part that was derived from T₀. This addition of awesome to each piece turns them into a pair of robots... one being T₁ (T₀ with additional awesome), and the other a new transformer T₂ with a quantity of awesome now all its own... despite being based on another bot's awesomeness.

 

More simply put:

 

T₁=T₂=RyuHayabusa(abs(T₀))

 

This is also due to the Commutative awesome Robot Theorem, which states that since each transformer has a distinct quantity of awesome, however within extremely close range of any other adjacent transformer (close enough to sometimes be negligible), a transformer may be identified by the magnitude of awesome it possesses. Otherwise the above equation wouldn't make much sense.

 

After this process is complete, Ryu steps back through to his own dimension, and after the cut is resealed, a new TF is "born" ... along with a Hasbro repaint. It's the Hasbro repaint that keeps this process from being too similar with reproduction of single cell organisms, and thus keeps it from being simply categorized as such. Nobody quite understands what the correlation between the event of reproduction and the event of Hasbro repaint is... but it has been accepted as a natural law within the scientific community as well as many major faith practices.

 

And it is now accepted by you. Congratulations.

 

***

 

I would think twice about questioning the validity of this theory of Origin of TFSpecies. My grandma made awesome cookies and always sent money for my birthday. She would never lie to me.

 

Regarding gender: Ryu keeps each bot's gender a secret... But sometimes he makes them look like girls to keep us guessing. How benevolent. I once tried to ask him the purpose or mode of any given bot's gender... he threatened to scare my grandma in exchange for endangering such foundational secrets. I had no argument, nor desire to test his patience further.

An "Organism" denotes something that is composed of organs. Now, if those organs are metal and silicon, that qualifies; a human is no less an organism if he or she has artificial parts replaing original ones. True, they still have their original parts that remain, but at what point would they cease being an organism? In Star Trek, Data was considered a cybernetic organism, and he was considered a life form, albeit he did not reproduce in the human meaning of the word.

 

As for life, how should we define that? Does one have to replicate every facet of a fleshly organism before it is considered life? And from the phrase, LIFE FORMS, denotes that life itself can take on various forms that don't always follow the 'norm" that we consider to be the rule rather than the exception. As I have heard it explained, Life 1) stores information, 2) processes energy, and 3) reproduces. Now, Transformers don't reproduce like we do, but they do create progeny of sorts.

 

But GENES? That is a trait unique to flesh and blood creatures. DNA is a chemical way to store information; cybernetic beings have no need for that, since their systems are already set up for that purpose.

 

 

So, while they are robotic life forms, they do NOT have genes, or heal cellularly. BTW: metal, because of it's microscopic crystalline nature (hence metal shearing and fractures), would NOT be suitable for containing genes. The reason why is that metal crystals, in comparison to DNA and its cousin RNA, hold a very low amount of information, and tends to be very repetitive. DNA, on the other hand, tends to be highly specialized and contains MASSIVE amounts of information that is extremely diverse. Due to the very nature of metal, any sort of "growth" along normal means would fracture the very fabric of the metal, defeating the purpose of the process.

 

Finally, as for being "male" and "female", anatomy alone does NOT determine that; men and women here have differing psyches as well as thought processes and mindsets. I suspect the same is true for the transformers. And in their case, anaotmy would make very little difference to them.

According to canon, Transformers have genes They have genetic code and have been established as having genes since Marvel Comics, is also discussed in MtMtE #8 and the movie, as well as on the special features disk for the movie. Simon Furman refers to their "DNA" analog as CNA (CyberNucleic Acid). MtMtE #8 repeatedly mentions Transformers genetic code throughout the book. It's the reason whay certain Transformers can combine, it's why others can be upgraded into Triple-Changers, why some individuals can mass convert, and why some have the affinity for the Matrix to be transformed into Primes. It is through Jhiaxus manipulating Arcee's genes during her creation that makes her female in Spotlight :Arcee. So yes, they do have genes.Those genes are likely chains of self-replicating molecular machines, just as their cells are self-replicating nanomachines. As the Production Designer of the movie said on the Special Features disk, "Every molecule, every cell is a machine unto itself". Also, the definiton of an "organism" is not something which has organs. From the Webster's online Dictionary:

Main Entry:

or·gan·ism Listen to the pronunciation of organism Pronunciation:

\ˈȯr-gə-ˌni-zəm\ Function:

noun Date:

circa 1774

1 : a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole

2 : an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent : a living being —http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/home-aol.htm

Cells are organisms, but don't contain true organs. They have "organells".

 

As for life , the most widely accepted criteria by biologists for life is see key life functions:

• 1. the ability for the organism to maintain internal homeostasis
  2. a highly organized internal system of interdependent systems with the cell being the smallest possible form.
  3.the ability to evolve and adapt over the generations through natural selection, genetic mutation, etc.
  4. the abilty to metabolize some form of nourishment.
  5. the ability to grow.
  6. the ability to respond to outside stimuli.
  7. to be capable of reproduction through either sexual or asexual means.
  

Transformers, in canon have been shown to meet every one of those criteria at one time or another.

 

Not only that, but science does believe it is theoretically possible to create machines that can reproduce through cellular division. These theories rely on the use of self-replicating molecular assemblers literally building molecules and creating larger nanomachines starting at the molecular level, which in turn create even larger machines. This is analogous to DNA replicating in order to create cells, which in turn create larger organisms. The same principle is theoretically possible. Thus, in essence you have a "DNA" made up of molecular machines, not crystals, which make up larger self-replicating nanomachine cells that in turn form the basic components which compose the body of a Transformer.

 

As for Data, he was legally classified as having the same rights as a living being. from a purely scientific perspective though, he's not a life form.

As for being male and female, yes, anatomy does determine that alone. Even the wiring of the brain is a result of the anatomy and hormones. A woman who behaves in a masculine manner is no less female, a man who has an effeminate manner is no less male. Those individuals who believe themselves to be the wrong sex do so because of hormonal screw-ups during their development in the womb, not an actual error in their physical body's sex. It's their brain that is wired wrong with either too much or not enough testosterone being pumped through the body during key points in their development in the womb. "male" and "female" are physical sexes.

 

Main Entry:

1male Listen to the pronunciation of 1malePronunciation:

\ˈmÄl\ Function:

noun Etymology:

Middle English, from Anglo-French masle, male, adjective & noun, from Latin masculus — more at masculineDate:

14th century

1 a: a male person : a man or a boy b: an individual that produces small usually motile gametes (as spermatozoa or spermatozoids) which fertilize the eggs of a female

2: a staminate plant

—http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/home-aol.htm

 

Main Entry:

2female Function:

noun Etymology:

Middle English, alteration of femel, femelle, from Anglo-French & Medieval Latin; Anglo-French femele, from Medieval Latin femella, from Latin, girl, diminutive of feminaDate:

14th century

1 a: a female person : a woman or a girl b: an individual that bears young or produces large usually immobile gametes (as eggs) that are fertilized by small usually motile gametes of a male

2: a pistillate plant

—http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/home-aol.htm

It is being "masculine" or "feminine" which are traits attributed to the brain, behavior, and culture. And, none of that is "humanocentric" either. It's applicable to all living things. What makes a lion male and a lioness female is no different than what makes a human male or female. What makes a spider, or a crocodile, or a fish, ant, bird, etc. male or female is no different than what makes a human male or female. It's their physical anatomy that makes them the sex they are, not the way their brains are wired. Without the physical sex, the wiring itself would not exist in the first place since there would be no physical difference among the species. What males an organism male or female is physical first and foremost. Everything else is a result of that.

 

Now, how does this apply to Transformers? Simple. through molecular-machine based CNA, nanomachine cells are formed capable of self-replication. These cells form larger constructs which make up the internal systems of a Transformer, and these, in turn, form the body of the Transformer. These nanomachines enable a transformer to grow, and heal from injury, and it could also allow them to reproduce through the combination of specialized nanomachines and cellular replication. Marvel comics (spacifically G2), the only reality which did establish the Transformers as genderless, already showed them being capable of reproducing asexually through cellular replication using the process of budding. there is no reason why in the other realities in which they do have males and females, that those sexes are not literal.

 

Regardless, this has no bearing on the Crasher toy, so before this topic gets derailed any further, I suggest we move back to the original topic. I didn't want to get into this anyway. If you want to discuss it further, PM me.

spoiler alert:

they're plastic toys

seriously

 

but back to mirage & fracture (& now drag strip... lol, drag!) i think the mould works well as a "male" & a "female" character

 

there should be more "female" transformers - but they should stop sticking breasts on "female" figures - it's not like the "male" TF's have wangs (well, not often)

 

keep the robots an ambiguous body shape & (if you fell the need) write the characters as "female" in the fiction - i suppose "girly" colours (which is pink and err... yeah i've got nothing more to expand on that stereotype) could be used to denote "sex"

 

 

or like get a life n stuff

 

keep the robots an ambiguous body shape & (if you fell the need) write the characters as "female" in the fiction - i suppose "girly" colours (which is pink and err... yeah i've got nothing more to expand on that stereotype) could be used to denote "sex"

Stripper boot seem to be the new "hey this robot's a chick" trend.

 

And Blitzwing's hothead persona really is an East German female Olympian :D

Wow, Tramp, you totally didn't pay attention in biology class, did you? Or, you know, psych. Or, you know, fandom. BECAUSE WHAT'S TRUE IN MARVEL COMICS IS TRUE IN EVERYTHING. Comics are so well-known for internal consistency, and consistency with series that were written by people who may not even read English. And no writer has ever made up crazy stuff just to fill page or screentime, no, stop looking at B.O.T., heeeey not over here at the Constructicons-- what are you doing, if it's in canon it's canon! Yes, all three origin stories!

 

Guys! The Balrog has wings, Bombshell is Cyclonus, and Wheelie is a compelling character! IT'S FACT BECAUSE I SAY SO.

 

there should be more "female" transformers - but they should stop sticking breasts on "female" figures - it's not like the "male" TF's have wangs (well, not often)

Triggercrotch. :P

 

keep the robots an ambiguous body shape & (if you fell the need) write the characters as "female" in the fiction - i suppose "girly" colours (which is pink and err... yeah i've got nothing more to expand on that stereotype) could be used to denote "sex"

 

 

or like get a life n stuff

Purple's girly, too~ and so're painted nails.

 

By this logic, Scourge, Cyclonus, Galvy, Shockwave, and Lugnut are girls, and Blitzwing and Astrotrain are androgynous, at the least. :P (Doesn't Trypicon have purple in him, too? And some others... eh, too early in the morning to remember them all.) Actually, considering the color of the Decepticon symbol, maybe they're leaning hard on the side of feminine~ XD

 

 

Or we could do that.

 

 

ETA: Also, lol:

Regardless, this has no bearing on the Crasher toy, so before this topic gets derailed any further, I suggest we move back to the original topic. I didn't want to get into this anyway. If you want to discuss it further, PM me.

Who was it that held a gun against your head and forced to to post, then?

:pfx

spoiler alert:

they're plastic toys

seriously

I abandon all previous statements and subscribe to this theory.

Purple's girly, too~ and so're painted nails.

 

By this logic, Scourge, Cyclonus, Galvy, Shockwave, and Lugnut are girls, and Blitzwing and Astrotrain are androgynous, at the least. :P (Doesn't Trypicon have purple in him, too? And some others... eh, too early in the morning to remember them all.) Actually, considering the color of the Decepticon symbol, maybe they're leaning hard on the side of feminine~ XD

i've always thought purple was "the homosexual colour" (because my gay mate said so) but it seems like he wasn't just making it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple#Sexuality

 

:schin

 

lol,

chocolate

star

fish

scream !

 

 

 

spoiler alert:

they're plastic toys

seriously

I abandon all previous statements and subscribe to this theory.

:word :tflaugh