i thought the lil monkey guy from G1 built Unicron... (i forget his name right now)

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His name is Primacron

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ok who created primacron then ? and the guy before ? and the guy before ?....hum let,s just stick with the universe that will avoid allot of headaches

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Primacron wasn't a robot or a god, he was just a little monkey man.

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I wonder if Primacron's mom was immaculately conceived.

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Like Darth Vader?

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not to completely derail this thread, but I think Episode III kind of explained what really happened there.

 

anyway I was thinking more "Virgin Mary" but whatever :tflaugh

So who created the One, the Creator, the Allspark, or whatever you call it? Chew on that!  :tflaugh1

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He was created with the Universe, which came into being due to some unexplainable event that occured prior to time/space as we know it, so we can never fathom its existance anyway.

 

done.

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That goes against the scientific law of non contradiction. If there was absolutely nothing then what initiated the "big bang". Then it would never have occured. In order for any thing to occur then there has to be something to originate that occurance. Thus the reason that God must be an eternal being. He is what is known as a necissary being. He has to exist because if He doesn`t exist then nothing else does. We are temporal beings we have a beginning. How ever In the beginninig God created the heavens and the earth. So if Unicron and Primus did exist in reality then their creator would be God just as the rest of us. Then the reason for Unicron`s corruption would be Satan`s influence.

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The (Judeo-Christianic-Islamic) God doesn't necessarily need to exist for the universe to exist. I mean, what if some strange interdimensional beings caused the Big Bang that birthed our universe as some funky science project? What if they are not even aware of our existance? Or what if they died eons ago? What's to say the creators of the universe are still alive? Don't be so naive to think that the Big Bang is enough to prove (or disprove) conclusively that your religion is true, because it's not. The truth is, we're not likely to ever truly know exactly what caused the Big Bang or what, if anything, happened before.

 

And trying to shoehorn religion, especially Christianity, Judiasm, or Islam, into the TF mythos is just silly. For one thing, Primus and Unicron are supposed to be gods. Wouldn't imply that the TF mythos aren't really compatible with the Bible or Quran?

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Read the TF Ultimate guide book in it, it is clearly stated that both Unicron and Primus were created by a being they call the one as a pair of twin heralds to explore the vastness of space. Therefore neither Unicron or Primus could possibly be gods. Don`t forget that the Japanese often use the term god very lightly. God Ginrai, God Bomber, God Magnus. You get the idea? People see that some thing is called a god in Japanese mythos and automatically assume that means that thry are refering to these characters being great almighty gods. The assumption that the one is a nod to the Judeo-Christian God. Who is called again and again through out the Bible as The One God of all. (I don`t include the muslims/ islamic faith in this due to several major contradicions in their beliefs that makes it rather obvious to me that if there are such major contradictions then the religion can`t possibly be true)

 

The simple fact of the matter is that there is an obvious order to the way that things work here in our universe that would require a maker and a sustainer. Thus the idea that some interdimentional being created our universe by accident is atrociously silly. Some funky science project? Come on look at how intricately we are made. Did you know that you have enough length of blood vessels in your body to go around the world 3 1/3 times? Oh yeah that must be a mistake. Or just some cosmic coincedence. :roll Look at the theory of evolution for a second. They want you to believe that the universe was created by a gigantic explosion from nothing. Then that by some cosmic coincedense water formed on earth and some how living cells developed in that water, which then not even having a brain figured out how to combine into simple organisms and then more and more complex organisms. I`m sorry for any one who could possibly believe that rubish could even be close to the truth. There is a God and He created the universe and keeps it going even today and if the sun rises tomorrow morning then you should thank Him for making the sun to rise again.

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Dude, Unicron is known as the dark god of chaos for crying out loud. And your previous allegation that Unicron was corrupted by Satan is woefully incorrect. According to Armada and Energon, Unicron is evil because WE made him so. Unicron is empowered and fueled by hatred, prejudice, bitterness, wars, and violence. He is the reflection of the evil that exists within ourselves. Furthermore, Energon has implied that human sparks or souls are fragile and don't continue to exist past death. "One life, that's all they got." Doesn't that kinda clashes with mainstream Christianity or Judiasm?

 

And you claim that Islam is full of inaccuracies? Well, what about intelligent design or creationism? Alot of Christians still insist that the Earth was created in 6 days, and that it's only 6,000 or 20,000 years old, and that gays and lesbians are the ultimate unspeakable evil. Furthermore, it is well documented that the church has constantly rewritten and revised the Bible several times throughout history.

 

Once again, the Big Bang doesn't prove any religion correct. Just because it happened and created the universe, doesn't mean it was done by a God. And the Sun "rises" each morning because the Earth orbits around the Sun. It isn't because of some magic trick, it's simple science.

Lord Gyconi is absolutely right - Rodimus VTS, I would really appreciate it if you would STOP spouting your nonsensical Christian "science" (and I use that term very loosely) in this thread, as you are starting to stray away from the actual theme of this thread, and the theme of discussing TRANSFORMERS. All non-TF related discussions belong in the General Discussions Forum.

 

Furthermore, be aware that the word "God" can have a wide meaning, not just the single dogmatic definition used by Judeo-Christianity. It's extremely pious and arrogant of you to say that the Japanese use the word "God" loosely. No they don't. Simply that Shintoism and Buddhism have a different definition of divinity and spiritualism, and the word "God" doesn't necessarily share the same meaning - well, it can, if you're a Japanese Christian... but even if you were a Western Buddhist, the word God wouldn't hold the same meaning.

 

You are completely ignoring the context in which the word God is being used here. Primus is a God. He created Cybertron - he created an entire species of Transformers, bequethed them with life. No, he is not a universally omnipotent God. Neither is Neptune, or Mercury, or Apollo, or Aphrodite, or Quetzcoatl... yet these are all Gods/Goddesses.

 

And trying to tie Transformers theology with Judeo-Christianity is just sad. It's a fcuking comic book, man. Besides, there are certain parts of TF Theology that would directly contradict a Judeo-Christian relation - remember that the other half of TF theism comes from Hinduism. Okay, now I'm starting to get sad... stop infecting me!! *fends off nerd germs*

I don't think Transformers "endorses" or even proceeds from any particular religious tradition. There have been a lot of TF writers over the years with more or less interest in "religifying" the franchise. (and I know for a fact that the spiritual themes in Beast Machines just come from Bob Skir's own personal beliefs....)

As for the god-thing, there are 2 types of religions that involve dieties. What we are used to, from the judan tradition, which harks back to the Aton-theology in ancient Egypt, is the mono-theistic religion, with only one Ultimate Power, which is the source of everything.

the other theological tradition is Polytheism, where a number of gods share power. Best example in todays world would be the Pantheon of Greek gods, where no god held power over everything, but each was assigned a domain over which that god held power.

 

These 2 are nothing alike. Though they both seem to deal with the same thing, the supernatural, the thoughts and belief behind them are completelt incompatible. With mono-theism, there is only one God, which governs everything. One GOd, one power, one judge, and one engineer, which created everything, and where we are part of his creation. In Poly-theism, the world is inherently devided, and humanity is cought between those forces. In this filosofy, man is caught between gods, and are simple toys to them. But, they can directly influence these gods. In India, Ancient Greece, Ancient South-America, we find legends of humans who clash with gods.

 

Transformers clearly have a poly-theistic religion. The Transformers interact with their gods directly. Very similar to ancient greek legends. Even the notion of an AllSpark is taken from Ancient Greek Philosophy, but that's besides the point. Mono-theism usually has very few stories where God directly, as a character in a story, appears, besides the role of a, and forgive me the pun, Deus ex Machina, in the form of Devine Intervention.

what about pantheism?

Pan-theism is a form of religion, which states that God is All, that everything we call reality is but an aspect of God. Personally, I see that as an offshoot of the mono-theistic barnch of religion, because pantheism has as fundament that there is but one God. Pantheism cannot exist in a poly-theistic enviroment, because then you would have the problem of identifying which thing is an aspect of what god. Well, in all honesty, I claim this as a fact, but I'm not sure. Let's just say I never have heard of a pantheistic poly-theistic religion, and that just imagining such a thing seems counter-intuitive.

I wouldn't link pantheism and monotheism..... at least not in front of a Wiccan

Ah, but if what I know of wicca is right, then Wiccans believe everything is interconnected. They do have more than one diety, Mother Earth and the Horned god, usually assosiated as Pan, so it's poly-theistic, that is true.  But, believing that everything is interconnected is different from what pantheism states, which is that everything in reality is part of God. How everything is part of God can even be categorised. You have the notion of the Omega-Point (read the Hyperion Cantos), the idea of the World Brain(Borg of Star Trek), and many other interpretation of the same notion.

That's kind of my point. Pantheistic religions can have divinities, but they're not qualitatively any different from you or I; it's seen as a quantitative difference. (And the idea of "God" is really not useful when discussing pantheism because it's imposing a monotheistic understanding upon it.) Polytheistic religions do distinguish between the mortal (us) and the divine (not us) in a more qualitative way. But even this is malleable; Hinduism is a highly polytheistic religion, and people can become gods or goddesses.... with enough karma, that is.

 

well anyway this all has zero to do with Transformers. :tflaugh