I've always considered Transformers to be a sci fi/fantasy property. As an action series, yeah I would say it qualifies as that too.

I think the desired effect would be to make the show a bit more mature. Aim it at adults. Kids will like it to because it's big robots fighting. G1 had a slightly more adult theme to it ( there were some stupid eps ) and the kids liked it. Why does it have to be dumbed down for kids? They like alot of the same stuff adults do.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree about G1 having any kind of an adult theme to it. It was a kids' show, and it was made for kids. Don't believe me? Then recall to mind the G1 toy commercials. Remember the kids in those commercials? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single one whose balls had dropped yet.

 

I don't understand why we keep thinking that Transformers has to "grow up" as we do. It doesn't. It remains a kids' show. You can still enjoy it now, and that's fine. But it's not targeted toward you.

 

And if you want to talk about cartoons being dumbed down, why don't you talk to someone who was a kid during the 50's and 60's. Watch any of the classic Looney Tunes or Tom & Jerry cartoons and tell me that Transformers (meaning G1) wasn't done on the cheap, with little to no genuine thought or creativity put into it. It's utterly pathetic compared to cartoons like those that came before it.

 

What appeals to us is the *idea* of the Transformers. They're darn cool toys, after all. But the potential that lies within the concept of transforming robots has rarely been exploited in any TF show.

 

(Except Beast Machines. :P)

I'm sorry, I have to disagree about G1 having any kind of an adult theme to it. It was a kids' show, and it was made for kids. Don't believe me? Then recall to mind the G1 toy commercials. Remember the kids in those commercials? I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single one whose balls had dropped yet.

 

I don't understand why we keep thinking that Transformers has to "grow up" as we do. It doesn't. It remains a kids' show. You can still enjoy it now, and that's fine. But it's not targeted toward you.

I agree with you here a lot. Very much so, even if my dream TF Show is more adult-oriented than can ever be done and marketed.

 

 

And if you want to talk about cartoons being dumbed down, why don't you talk to someone who was a kid during the 50's and 60's. Watch any of the classic Looney Tunes or Tom & Jerry cartoons and tell me that Transformers (meaning G1) wasn't done on the cheap, with little to no genuine thought or creativity put into it. It's utterly pathetic compared to cartoons like those that came before it.

Here is where I disagree with you a lot. A lot of creativity went into G1 Cartoon to make all the first year characters unique as well as making episodes that had themes that hadn't been done before in a kids cartoon. Alien Robots in the middle of a Civil War that now can change into ordinary machinery we take for granted all around us. I mean come on Madhammer that's creative, much more creative than we could have gotten. And I mean some G1 Characters came out in the end with some heavy-development as to who they were and what they would be like and do...Prime, Bumblebee, Ironhide come to mind.

 

Transformers also used a lot of the same principles that Tom and Jerry used:

Main Villain(s) terrorize/attack main hero character(s) but are defeated/beaten/get what they deserve in the end. Tom and Jerry also was just as trite as G1 in the telling of the overall story a lot of times. Sometimes you can be watching different episodes but it'll feel exactly like the same episode over and over. Now I like Tom and Jerry and grew up on Looney Tunes.

Looney Tunes was different and creative EVERY single episode. Looney Tunes, by the way it was produced as shorts forced it to be more creative. Some new thing happened to said character. New characters came in and did something new. You have it there, LT was more creative than a lot of other shows, but it was because of the nature behind the shows. The characters weren't a team, nor did they constantly rely on each other at all times. You could easily mix it up.

You can't say G1 Cartoon was not creative, cause if it wasn't how the hell did the ideas and themes behind TF's you suggest next statement stay with us for so long.

 

 

What appeals to us is the *idea* of the Transformers. They're darn cool toys, after all. But the potential that lies within the concept of transforming robots has rarely been exploited in any TF show.

I also agree with you here as well. It is the ideas that make TF's so great, particularly from G1.

But I disagree with you on Beast Machines. They didn't actually transform, nor did all the potential that could have been get fully explored. Trans-Tech I believe would have used much more of that potential and possibly to the max of what TF's could have been, but we didn't get that.

What Madhammer meant by saying that Beast Machines was the closest to sci-fi is that they explored the nature of sentient machines and organic life forms; what it meant to be either one, what the nature of merging the two were, what the nature of a spark is, and more. Beast Wars touched on those things, but Beast Machines exploited them much further.

 

G1 cartoon was pretty devoid of those aspects. And there were far more charicatures than characters in that show. The deep characterization of G1ers comes from the comics and the imagination of the fandom.

What Madhammer meant by saying that Beast Machines was the closest to sci-fi is that they explored the nature of sentient machines and organic life forms; what it meant to be either one, what the nature of merging the two were, what the nature of a spark is, and more. Beast Wars touched on those things, but Beast Machines exploited them much further.

 

G1 cartoon was pretty devoid of those aspects. And there were far more charicatures than characters in that show. The deep characterization of G1ers comes from the comics and the imagination of the fandom.

Yeah I know and understand all of this. I was not trying to flame Madhammer in any way.

 

And personally I prefer Comics over Cartoon.

And I agree that a lot of G1 characters were more on the "charicature" aspect. But my point was that G1 Cartoon was far from devoid of all characterization and creativity. It was a creative show, mostly in the first season.

 

I'm not a G1 Purist, I love aspects about each and every TF series, be it the toys, comics, cartoon, or whatever. Armada was my least favorite mainly because it fell to the wayside to me more than anything, not that is was horribly bad.

What Madhammer meant by saying that Beast Machines was the closest to sci-fi is that they explored the nature of sentient machines and organic life forms; what it meant to be either one, what the nature of merging the two were, what the nature of a spark is, and more. Beast Wars touched on those things, but Beast Machines exploited them much further.

 

G1 cartoon was pretty devoid of those aspects. And there were far more charicatures than characters in that show. The deep characterization of G1ers comes from the comics and the imagination of the fandom.

Yeah I know and understand all of this. I was not trying to flame Madhammer in any way.

 

And personally I prefer Comics over Cartoon.

And I agree that a lot of G1 characters were more on the "charicature" aspect. But my point was that G1 Cartoon was far from devoid of all characterization and creativity. It was a creative show, mostly in the first season.

 

I'm not a G1 Purist, I love aspects about each and every TF series, be it the toys, comics, cartoon, or whatever. Armada was my least favorite mainly because it fell to the wayside to me more than anything, not that is was horribly bad.

splendic perfectly summarized what I meant. That's what science fiction is all about - exploring questions of what it means to be a "sentient machine" and how "natural" life intersects with that. In Beast Machines, Megatron's point of view is that Transformers are meant to be machines, and as such are not required to be sentient, individualistic beings. Is he right? Is he wrong? Either way, what matters is that the issue is raised, and Optimus Primal and the others must struggle to determine the truth, as it relates to them and to all life on Cybertron.

 

But anyway...

 

Let me explain a bit further what I meant in my comparison to earlier cartoons. I wasn't talking about plot, since there usually is none in a five-minute cartoon. And plot isn't even the point. But consider all the work that went into one of those five-minute cartoons. They never recycled animation. They never played cut and paste with the music, drawing from a handful of prerecorded clips. And they never settled for anything less than complete professionalism. You didn't see Bugs Bunny appear blue in one shot and green in the next. He never just stood there inanimate while he was talking. These cartoons were done with care and skill. And perhaps most significant of all, they were not created for the express purpose of selling merchandise.

 

Hasbro wanted you to buy their toys. But they knew that toys needed a tie-in story in order to get the kids sucked in. So they threw a few bucks at Marvel/Sunbow and told them to make something that would get the kids interested. And it happened. We all bought the toys. But it wasn't the G1 cartoon or comic that made the Transformers brand last for 20 years. This is apparent just from looking at the fact that the Transformers story has been told and re-told tome and time again. The thing that kids remain interested in are the toys. Transforming robots are cool toys. And all kids (or adults) need is something - even the barest skeleton of a story - to make them feel that their playthings are more than toys; that they're characters who have life beyond a child's imagination.

 

And splendic is right. I'm sorry to say it, but every character in G1 was a stereotype, even Optimus Prime. How predictable was he? You always knew how he would react in any given situation, because he was "the hero". And in B-movies and pulp fiction, heroes always act the same. They're brave. They're selfless. They're noble. They're strong. They're determined. And they're utterly two-dimensional. And "good vs. evil" in black-and-white terms works for kids, because their brains aren't capable of abstract thought yet. So you don't really have to work that hard to create a show that kids will watch (as any cartoon on the Fox Box will amply demonstrate).

 

I'm not trying to deny that these shows were very meaningful to a lot of people. It was meaningful to me at one point. I'm only trying to help us maintain a little perspective here, and not get carried away, believing that G1 (and Transformers in general) was or is something it wasn't or isn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Santa Claus isn't real, either.

I see what your point is now...I mis-interpreted most of it from first reading.

 

I agree that we shouldn't say 'this aspect from this one thing made TF's do this and last said many years'. I also am NOT trying to say that G1 or any TF show is more than what it was/is. That was not my intention nor is it my beliefs.

 

Also, my hopes for a new TF series could never be met, because it would be:

 

Just a series that delves into the creation of the Factions and explores the fact that there would/should be neutrals, mercenaries, arms dealers, and politicians all involved in the war.

Corrupt councils, mercs switching sides to the top-bidder, and innocents being drawn into a war between two Factions that each feel they are right.

Decepticons - Survival of the Fittest and those that are strong rule the weak. Tyranny will breed a stronger Cybertron.

Autobots - Freedom is for every living being, weak or strong. Everyone should have equal rights even if the weak physically and mentally bring down society...they are people too.

 

The series would give more depth into how each Faction begins and what propaganda is used on both sides of the war. This would literally show all the horridness that goes into war and brings out how simple views can cause a torrent of bloodshed. Plus it would give great characterization to the Decepticons, who aren't just evil to be evil. Also this would make the Autobots not just the "good guys" since they are just a group pushing their beliefs through all forms of means including propaganda, shoot-outs, and terrorism, just like the 'Cons.

 

That's honestly what I would like to see...a short, well-developed and greatly-written series that explores why the war starts and how it affects all areas of life on Cybertron. I'm thinking something like 24-28 episodes max.

 

I know that could never happen...it could never be pushed past Good vs. Evil and Black & White. (ignoring BW/BM which at different points made it more than that) I hope that is not how I was coming off. I know most of G1 and any other series forces the Characters to be more two-dimensional in the cartoons. Comics gave much more dimension to a lot of characters, in fact most of them (that's one of the things I meant, just didn't express well).

I think the desired effect would be to make the show a bit more mature. Aim it at adults. Kids will like it to because it's big robots fighting. G1 had a slightly more adult theme to it ( there were some stupid eps ) and the kids liked it. Why does it have to be dumbed down for kids? They like alot of the same stuff adults do.

G1.. adult themes? :tflaugh

 

Okay, well I guess if you're talking about the post movie episodes.. :roll

 

SciFi bores the friggin crap out of me, I'll be honest. Never got into Star Trek.. nothin like Space Age politics to put you to sleep..

 

Alright.. so if we can call TFs SciFi.. how about the Jetsons? :tflaugh1 Futurama, Star Wars... do they count to?

What Madhammer meant by saying that Beast Machines was the closest to sci-fi is that they explored the nature of sentient machines and organic life forms; what it meant to be either one, what the nature of merging the two were, what the nature of a spark is, and more. Beast Wars touched on those things, but Beast Machines exploited them much further.

 

G1 cartoon was pretty devoid of those aspects. And there were far more charicatures than characters in that show. The deep characterization of G1ers comes from the comics and the imagination of the fandom.

Yeah I know and understand all of this. I was not trying to flame Madhammer in any way.

 

And personally I prefer Comics over Cartoon.

And I agree that a lot of G1 characters were more on the "charicature" aspect. But my point was that G1 Cartoon was far from devoid of all characterization and creativity. It was a creative show, mostly in the first season.

 

I'm not a G1 Purist, I love aspects about each and every TF series, be it the toys, comics, cartoon, or whatever. Armada was my least favorite mainly because it fell to the wayside to me more than anything, not that is was horribly bad.

splendic perfectly summarized what I meant. That's what science fiction is all about - exploring questions of what it means to be a "sentient machine" and how "natural" life intersects with that. In Beast Machines, Megatron's point of view is that Transformers are meant to be machines, and as such are not required to be sentient, individualistic beings. Is he right? Is he wrong? Either way, what matters is that the issue is raised, and Optimus Primal and the others must struggle to determine the truth, as it relates to them and to all life on Cybertron.

 

But anyway...

 

Let me explain a bit further what I meant in my comparison to earlier cartoons. I wasn't talking about plot, since there usually is none in a five-minute cartoon. And plot isn't even the point. But consider all the work that went into one of those five-minute cartoons. They never recycled animation. They never played cut and paste with the music, drawing from a handful of prerecorded clips. And they never settled for anything less than complete professionalism. You didn't see Bugs Bunny appear blue in one shot and green in the next. He never just stood there inanimate while he was talking. These cartoons were done with care and skill. And perhaps most significant of all, they were not created for the express purpose of selling merchandise.

 

Hasbro wanted you to buy their toys. But they knew that toys needed a tie-in story in order to get the kids sucked in. So they threw a few bucks at Marvel/Sunbow and told them to make something that would get the kids interested. And it happened. We all bought the toys. But it wasn't the G1 cartoon or comic that made the Transformers brand last for 20 years. This is apparent just from looking at the fact that the Transformers story has been told and re-told tome and time again. The thing that kids remain interested in are the toys. Transforming robots are cool toys. And all kids (or adults) need is something - even the barest skeleton of a story - to make them feel that their playthings are more than toys; that they're characters who have life beyond a child's imagination.

 

And splendic is right. I'm sorry to say it, but every character in G1 was a stereotype, even Optimus Prime. How predictable was he? You always knew how he would react in any given situation, because he was "the hero". And in B-movies and pulp fiction, heroes always act the same. They're brave. They're selfless. They're noble. They're strong. They're determined. And they're utterly two-dimensional. And "good vs. evil" in black-and-white terms works for kids, because their brains aren't capable of abstract thought yet. So you don't really have to work that hard to create a show that kids will watch (as any cartoon on the Fox Box will amply demonstrate).

 

I'm not trying to deny that these shows were very meaningful to a lot of people. It was meaningful to me at one point. I'm only trying to help us maintain a little perspective here, and not get carried away, believing that G1 (and Transformers in general) was or is something it wasn't or isn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Santa Claus isn't real, either.

Preachin to the chior my friend :thumb

 

I couldn't say that any better myself.

 

So I guess I liked SciFi after all.. and it does not bore me.. I always thought of it as Star Trek... :roll

Alright.. so if we can call TFs SciFi.. how about the Jetsons? :tflaugh1 Futurama, Star Wars... do they count to?

Star Wars isnt sci fi? Thought it was always considered to be a sci fi/fantasy type fiction.