if that's the final colors, i'd say it's horrendous.

As I said above, the issue with Turbomasters/Predators/Rescue Force/Pyro/Clench/Aquaspeeders/etc is that between 1991-1993 these toys were still released in Europe as part of "The Transformers" - there was no official separation between G1 as we know it today and these figures. This period is what Tramp terms as a transitional line, despite there never being any official separation between what we now term G1 and these figures. Therefore, until the advent of G2, they fit within the G1 releases for many people buying them.

 

However, because these figures did break somewhat from the pattern of G1 figures and were first released in a period in which for Americans G1 had finished, many people seem uncomfortable in considering these figures as part of G1. Because these later figures share many qualities with the G2 figures, and had many figures rereleased in America as part of their G2 line, they find it easier to classify these later European G1 releases as part of the G2 releases.

 

Short answer - they were officially released within the European/Australian/Canadian markets as part of what we would now refer to as G1. Many fans find it easier to consider them as part G2. Some choose to say they were part of a transitionary line, never really belonging in either group. Thus they sit uncomfortably in many people's collections, with no real "home" to speak of. Hope that answers your question JOP.

Indeed, it rather does.

 

Personally, I have no issue placing Pyro and assorted pals under the G2 banner - aesthetically speaking, they appear far more at home in the gaudy neon world of G2; and the preponderance of play gimmickry is another hallmark of the second generation of Transformers.

 

My only issue has been with the question of which line under which the Pyro / Spark figure was first released. Tramp has provided three different responses on this matter; citing alternately that the figure was released as a latter part of G1, as the very last part of G1, and in a transitional wave that was not G1. I understand that the figure came to market at a time of great turmoil within the brand; but really, the matter doesn't seem all that complicated. :)

JOP, I never said that Pyro was part of G1. I said that he was sometimes lumped together with latter G1 figures because he was released during a transition between G1 and G2. That is what The Ultimate Guide specifically states. He is still a G2 toy, but simply one of several that were released during a transition between G1 and G2 between 1991 and 1992, a time that was no longer officially G1 but not yet G2 proper. That is what I have said. You interpreted that as being part of G1. It's not the same thing.

JOP, I never said that Pyro was part of G1. I said that he was sometimes lumped together with latter G1 figures because he was released during a transition between G1 and G2. That is what The Ultimate Guide specifically states. He is still a G2 toy, but simply one of several that were released during a transition between G1 and G2 between 1991 and 1992, a time that was no longer officially G1 but not yet G2 proper. That is what I have said. You interpreted that as being part of G1. It's not the same thing.

I did not state that the Pyro / Spark figure is a 'part of' the G1 group, and I did not state that you claimed such a thing either. I simply asked for clarification on whether or not the figure was initially released - which is entirely different issue from line categorization - under the G1 line.

 

Simply put, Pyro was indeed a G2 character whose toy was lumped in with the latter waves of G1 in Europe...

This would be you, stating that the toy was 'lumped in' - that is to say, released - alongside the latter waves of G1.

 

It was developed for the G2 line but got released with the last wave of the G1 line...

This would be you again, stating specifically that the figure was released with the last wave of the G1 line.

 

I cannot understand at this point why it is so extraordinarily difficult for you to draw a distinction between which line a figure was initially released under, and which line one should ultimately consider that figure a member of. If Hasbro - prior to the Beast Wars line hitting the shelves - sold a handful of Optimus Primal figures in G2 packaging, then that would mean Optimus Primal was first released under the G2 line. That does not mean that Optimus Primal should be considered a member of G2, or a non-member of Beast Wars, and so on.

 

 

That's actually a tasteful assortment of colors, for G2, compared to the BotCon toy. It's like the club is being goofy on purpose.

 

Dude, they're the same.

The G1 line ended officially at the end of 1990. Anything after that, but before G2 proper officially started in 1993 is part of a transitional line that was neither G1 proper nor G2 proper. The majority of toys released during that transition are officially categorized as Generation 2 toys. Pyro's packaging reflects this through the use of the Generation 2 Autobot symbol. Pyro was not part of Generation One proper. The Ultimate Guide confirms this specifically placing it in the chapter on Generation 2 toys and specifically calling it a Generation 2 toy. Secondly, "lumped together" does not mean released. It means, just as it sounds, "thrown in with haphazardly", "unofficially grouped with". Fans were the ones who sometimes lump Pyro in with the latter G1 toys, It's not the toy's official placement. The last wave of G1 toys was released at the same time as the very first wave of G2 toys. There was an apparent overlap during this transitional period with some toys having very G1 styled packaging (including G1 faction symbols) and others having very G2 styled packaging (with G2 faction symbols) but missing the Generation 2 subtitle. Pyro had G2 styled packaging with G2 faction symbols.

Liege Evilmus put it very succinctly:

 

It was a G2 character released during the transition between the end of G1 and the beginning of G2. The packaging had G2 markings but without the subtitle added. Look at the packaging.

Oh... so the figure was actually released as part of G2, and never as part of G1, then?

real easy, think of it like RID Megatron megabolt, Bruticus, & Air Attack Optisus Primal...

 

They were all designed for Beast Machines, but got put in RID because of the series switch.

They had the figure, and put it in the package that was handy at the moment.

It was a situation very similar here. The G1 line was over and done, G2 had yet to get started. Europe still wanted to release figures to keep interest up after it had waned in the US. So they basically mixed them up releasing a few with G1 style packaging and emblems as a last wave of G1 figures and others already specifically planned for G2 with G2 styled packaging as the first wave of G2 figures. Pyro was one of these G2 figures released during this transition after G1 had officially ended, but before G2 got officially underway. Its initial release was between lines not during a specific line. That is also what The Ultimate Guide says about Scorch where it says "Released only in Europe in a period that wasn't yet G2 but wasn't officially G1 either, Turbomasters rest uneasily between generations" Pyro, Clench, the Turbomasters, and a few other Transformers toys fell into this limbo between generations, but are officially classified as Generation 2 toys. They were not released as part of Generation One proper nor Generation 2 proper. They were released during a transition between G1 and G2. Pyro's packaging though, was a precursor to the final Generation 2 packaging, and he is officially classified as a Generation 2 figure.

The important thing to remember is that although the 'Transformers' line ended in 1990 for you guys, it didn't end for us in Europe (or Japan). We got some strange stuff (the Constructicons showing up for the first time ever in the UK in 1991 was a big shock!) but it was all just a continuation of 'Transformers'. 'G1' didn't exist as a concept, let alone G2.

 

I guess my main interest in this is how the toys originated - were they (as seems the case to me) the latest Takara toys, repackaged and sold in Europe? And then when Hasbro US decided to launch a line called G2 they took those toys which we'd already had and repackaged them again under that new banner?

 

I've always been led to believe that there was a 3-year gap in the US during which you lot didn't get anything new, followed by the decision by Hasbro US to kick start Transformers with the new G2 line. But if the original line ended in 1990, and the G2 toys were made - with the intention of there being a G2 relaunch - in 91, that means there was virtually no gap.

The important thing to remember is that although the 'Transformers' line ended in 1990 for you guys, it didn't end for us in Europe (or Japan). We got some strange stuff (the Constructicons showing up for the first time ever in the UK in 1991 was a big shock!) but it was all just a continuation of 'Transformers'. 'G1' didn't exist as a concept, let alone G2.

 

I guess my main interest in this is how the toys originated - were they (as seems the case to me) the latest Takara toys, repackaged and sold in Europe? And then when Hasbro US decided to launch a line called G2 they took those toys which we'd already had and repackaged them again under that new banner?

 

I've always been led to believe that there was a 3-year gap in the US during which you lot didn't get anything new, followed by the decision by Hasbro US to kick start Transformers with the new G2 line. But if the original line ended in 1990, and the G2 toys were made - with the intention of there being a G2 relaunch - in 91, that means there was virtually no gap.

Well, even in that sense, G2 was itself just a continuation of G1, but it was essentially a new generation of characters and toys. Given the shift in the packaging design between 1991 and 1992 as G2 proper came nearer, as the G1 faction symbols on the packaging was getting fazed out in favor of the G2 faction symbols (as seen on Pyro's packaging), it certainly appears that Hasbro was gearing up for G2 proper, probably using figures like the Obliterators as teasers for the new line. The one thing is though that the US never got Pyro or any of the other '19-'92 G2 toys.

The G1 line ended officially at the end of 1990. Anything after that, but before G2 proper officially started in 1993 is part of a transitional line that was neither G1 proper nor G2 proper. The majority of toys released during that transition are officially categorized as Generation 2 toys. Pyro's packaging reflects this through the use of the Generation 2 Autobot symbol. Pyro was not part of Generation One proper. The Ultimate Guide confirms this specifically placing it in the chapter on Generation 2 toys and specifically calling it a Generation 2 toy. Secondly, "lumped together" does not mean released. It means, just as it sounds, "thrown in with haphazardly", "unofficially grouped with". Fans were the ones who sometimes lump Pyro in with the latter G1 toys, It's not the toy's official placement. The last wave of G1 toys was released at the same time as the very first wave of G2 toys. There was an apparent overlap during this transitional period with some toys having very G1 styled packaging (including G1 faction symbols) and others having very G2 styled packaging (with G2 faction symbols) but missing the Generation 2 subtitle. Pyro had G2 styled packaging with G2 faction symbols.

Where to begin, where to begin...

 

How about we start with your first comment: "The G1 line ended officially at the end of 1990". That's rather tellingly indicative of a US-centric worldview, isn't it?

 

Moving on: I continue to be astounded by your refusal to differentiate between the line under which a figure might be initially released, and the line under which a figure should be officially categorized. I even gave you a perfectly good analogy in this regard; one you have refused to discuss, presumably because it appears not to be in your nature to admit mistakes.* Oh no - I'm not suggesting that you are wrong in regarding Pyro / Spark as a member of the G2 line; in this regard, as I have now stated multiple times, we fully agree. So why continue to bring up that The Ultimate Guide places the figure in G2? Who are you debating this issue with, exactly? It's certainly not me.

 

(Seriously - it's not going to kill you if, at this point, you say "Oh, hey, I misunderstood - for some reason I thought you were talking about Pyro being a G1 character, not a G2 character, and now I understand that this is indeed not a point under discussion and ironically one we are both agreed upon".)

 

No, the only issue here is the question of which line the figure was initially released under. Pyro was released in packaging near-identical to the other European 'Classics' releases; the only exception of any note being the use of the newer Autobot and Decepticon logos. Arguably, this makes the packaging transitional. However, this does not change the fact that at the time, there were no major line demarcations within the brand - there was no 'G1', there was no 'G2', there was merely 'Transformers'. Until Generation 2 hit the shelves in all its multicoloured glory, everything came under the same umbrella - one that only later gained the name 'Generation 1'. Ergo, Pyro / Spark was initially released as part of G1 - hapazardly 'lumped in', if you will - because there was simply no other banner at the time to apply, transitional packaging or not.

 

In small words for the hard of reading: Pyro is a G2 toy that came out first in G1 and then in G2.

 

* Unless you want to go another round on how man-portable .50 BMG rifles are considered a modern day anti-tank weapon capable of easily piercing the armour on a mainline battle tank.

The G1 line ended officially at the end of 1990. Anything after that, but before G2 proper officially started in 1993 is part of a transitional line that was neither G1 proper nor G2 proper. The majority of toys released during that transition are officially categorized as Generation 2 toys. Pyro's packaging reflects this through the use of the Generation 2 Autobot symbol. Pyro was not part of Generation One proper. The Ultimate Guide confirms this specifically placing it in the chapter on Generation 2 toys and specifically calling it a Generation 2 toy. Secondly, "lumped together" does not mean released. It means, just as it sounds, "thrown in with haphazardly", "unofficially grouped with". Fans were the ones who sometimes lump Pyro in with the latter G1 toys, It's not the toy's official placement. The last wave of G1 toys was released at the same time as the very first wave of G2 toys. There was an apparent overlap during this transitional period with some toys having very G1 styled packaging (including G1 faction symbols) and others having very G2 styled packaging (with G2 faction symbols) but missing the Generation 2 subtitle. Pyro had G2 styled packaging with G2 faction symbols.

Where to begin, where to begin...

 

How about we start with your first comment: "The G1 line ended officially at the end of 1990". That's rather tellingly indicative of a US-centric worldview, isn't it?

 

Moving on: I continue to be astounded by your refusal to differentiate between the line under which a figure might be initially released, and the line under which a figure should be officially categorized. I even gave you a perfectly good analogy in this regard; one you have refused to discuss, presumably because it appears not to be in your nature to admit mistakes.* Oh no - I'm not suggesting that you are wrong in regarding Pyro / Spark as a member of the G2 line; in this regard, as I have now stated multiple times, we fully agree. So why continue to bring up that The Ultimate Guide places the figure in G2? Who are you debating this issue with, exactly? It's certainly not me.

 

(Seriously - it's not going to kill you if, at this point, you say "Oh, hey, I misunderstood - for some reason I thought you were talking about Pyro being a G1 character, not a G2 character, and now I understand that this is indeed not a point under discussion and ironically one we are both agreed upon".)

 

No, the only issue here is the question of which line the figure was initially released under. Pyro was released in packaging near-identical to the other European 'Classics' releases; the only exception of any note being the use of the newer Autobot and Decepticon logos. Arguably, this makes the packaging transitional. However, this does not change the fact that at the time, there were no major line demarcations within the brand - there was no 'G1', there was no 'G2', there was merely 'Transformers'. Until Generation 2 hit the shelves in all its multicoloured glory, everything came under the same umbrella - one that only later gained the name 'Generation 1'. Ergo, Pyro / Spark was initially released as part of G1 - hapazardly 'lumped in', if you will - because there was simply no other banner at the time to apply, transitional packaging or not.

 

In small words for the hard of reading: Pyro is a G2 toy that came out first in G1 and then in G2.

 

* Unless you want to go another round on how man-portable .50 BMG rifles are considered a modern day anti-tank weapon capable of easily piercing the armour on a mainline battle tank.

 

HA............you said sesquipedalianism! :drool well done