Okay, this may have been discussed in the other BW comic thread, but I wasn't sifting through 48 pages to find out. The implication is that the "Maximum Imperium," AKA Magnaboss, AKA Prowl, Ironhide, and Silverbolt, were THE original G1 characters, correct? If so, how or why were they still alive at the time of the Beast Wars? Silverbolt could've been, I suppose, but we know for a fact that Prowl and Ironhide were killed in the movie... so what's the deal?

Your also forgetting Grimlock.

 

I see it going 2 ways,

 

-1 something vauge happened during Actionmasters because they try to include everything in BW stories.

 

-2 lazy/confused writing because they try to include everything in a BW stories so that just seemed easier and kept it G1 relatable.

 

I see alot of TFs that share the same names as people who share the same names. If there's more then one Albert in the world, why can't their be more then one Prowl on that one?

Your also forgetting Grimlock.

 

I see it going 2 ways,

 

-1 something vauge happened during Actionmasters because they try to include everything in BW stories.

 

-2 lazy/confused writing because they try to include everything in a BW stories so that just seemed easier and kept it G1 relatable.

 

I see alot of TFs that share the same names as people who share the same names. If there's more then one Albert in the world, why can't their be more then one Prowl on that one?

 

I think you missed the point. In the BW continiuty in the US anyway, in the comic Maxium Imperium, Magnaboss (G1 turned BW Ironhide, Prowl, Silverbolt) were killed off in the story. Hes asking how can they be STILL alive today if this is so.

 

My answer, CR chamber. ;) :D

Your right, I did get confused. Sorta

Remember that Beast Wars/Beast Machines is broadly based on G1; i.e. it draws elements from both the G1 cartoon _and_ comics, despite the fact that they're different continuities.

e.g.:

+ BW has Starscream's spark-ghost; from cartoon canon

+ BW mentions Primus; comic canon

+ BM features Vector Sigma; cartoon canon

+ BW refers to the Autobot spaceship as the Ark; comic canon (it was unnamed in the cartoon)

+ BW: the Ark's main computer is Teletran-1; cartoon canon (in the comics it was A.U.N.T.I.E.)

...and so on.

 

In the G1 comics, Ironhide, Prowl and Silverbolt were all resurrected in the Earthforce saga, although that story splintered off from mainstream comic continuity into an alternate reality (much like the recent Star Trek movie); but within the original universe all three Autobots were revived by Grimlock using Nucleon.

 

And before anyone mentions Prowl's contradictory appearance in the Headmasters animated series, Binaltech has since attempted to retcon that character as Prowl II, who also exists in Beast Wars! :D

Sadly, I'd say you're all correct. As much as I'd like to believe what happened in the cartoon was the only real canon (and I wish BW had just picked one - either comics or cartoon - and stuck to it), I know that isn't the case. Actually, come to think of it wasn't there a scene in BM where you saw G1 Prowl's sparkless corpse lying around? And another Prowl that was an owl, and... oh, just forget it :bored

Retcon all you want. Prowl the owl was supose to be G1 Prowl (how the mighty have fallen).

 

Here's really what it is, all these guys have been killed, brought back, new bodies, time travel and every other thing you can imagine...

 

When it gets to confusing or just stops making sense, then they throw "alternate universe" at us, which has become the Transformers equivilent of "a wizard did it"

 

You can try to make sense of it, you can have one guy state facts that are only contradicted by the next guys facts not to mention what was determined in a thread a while ago by some other guy!

 

The sad fact of the matter is though, none of it makes sense anymore, so don't over complicate it with thought. Take each story as a one shot, because it's probably an alternate universe anyway, and just have fun with it.

 

Personaly, the only TF story I care about anymore, is the one on my shelves. To many cooks working on everything else.

 

Case in point, Grimlock. Well, OK, comic book wise he and the other dinobots came to Earth around the same time as Beast Wars and fought Shockwave. So OK, he's here already. Well instead of just using that Grimlock and saying he was woken up by some crap or another, they made a whole new Grimlock who was supose to be on the Axilon but still the same guy???

 

All they're doing is over complicating things and getting cought in their own details, but thats OK, cause it's an alternate universe now.

The REAL reason why thee guys come back is because Hasbro wanted to maintain the trademarks on their names for the toys!! :D Simple as that!

 

It's then up to writers to see whether or not they can try to work it into continuity; and sadly they can sometimes be thwarted by Hasbro's inattention to what they're doing. And it's nothing new, it even happened in G1. e.g.: there are two completely different Transformers in G1 called "Barrage."

 

sertile: I agree with you; the writers should have chosen one canon and stuck with it. But put it in context; Larry DiTillio and Bob Forward knew NOTHING about Transformers when they were first hired to write Beast Wars. To their credit, they _chose_ to keep Beast Wars within existing Transformers continuity, instead of choosing the easy option of making a new continuity like with the Unicron Trilogy or Transformers Animated. Keeping a story in pre-existing canon is HARD. It's even harder when said pre-existing canon has _multiple_ continuities! If you were hired to write a story for Star Wars, it's not much of a problem as the majority of what's been written for Star Wars exists in a singular continuity. Forward and DiTillio weren't quite aware of this and assumed that Transformers was a singular continuity. A *lot* of people do, even your more casual Transformer fans - just a few weeks ago I was in a bookstore talking to someone who told me he was a TF collector, but he was _unaware_ that the G1 cartoon and comics were separate continuities. So if fans can be ignorant of this, surely non-fans would be too. :) Forward and DiTillio started talking to the fandom via the newsgroup and asked for references for their research. Fans started citing certain episodes, comic book issues, bio & tech specs etc. for them to watch/read; which they did. But because they started by just exposing themselves to select material recommended by fans, and not actually sitting down and reading or watching the entire run of G1 (which would be VERY time-consuming; this is research they were doing and probably weren't being paid any extra for!), that's why Beast Wars' links to G1 feels like it jumps between different canons. :) While it does create continuity issues, I'm personally eternally grateful to DiTillio and Forward just for putting in that effort and consideration, which they would've done out of respect for the Transformers franchise and fans, as well as taking personal pride in their work. I've not seen any writer; comic, TV, movie etc., since Beast Wars/Machines who've bothered to do this. They've all taken the easier option of creating their own new continuities; and you can see why. But kudos to Forward and DiTillio for chosing the harder path; in the end it gave us what I consider the best story ever written for a TF TV series.

 

Retcon all you want. Prowl the owl was supose to be G1 Prowl (how the mighty have fallen).

But that's the entire point of retcon! It doesn't matter what was written before, the Law of Retroactive Continuity states that the latest official version is the most correct, and anything preceding it which may contradict it is therefore invalidated.

 

For example:

+ Initially the Transformers' origins were explained as Atechnogenesis (mechanical evolution) but Furman retconned it to special creation via the god Primus; which has now become the universal origin of all Transformers in _every_ continuity, because Primus is a Multiversal Singularity.

+ Initially the Maximals and Predacons were meant to be Autobots and Decepticons with beast modes. If you read the early tech spec bios and the comic book that came with the Optimus Primal vs. Megatron set, it talks about how they used biotechnology to make themselves beastie. The Beast Wars cartoon came along and completely replaced this by retconning the BW TFs as being the future descendants of Autobots and Decepticons.

...etc.

 

So as far as official canon and the Law of Retroactive Continuity are concerned, the original intent of the author actually doesn't matter if they're contradicted by later official canon. The latest official version is the most correct.

 

Case in point, Grimlock. Well, OK, comic book wise he and the other dinobots came to Earth around the same time as Beast Wars and fought Shockwave. So OK, he's here already. Well instead of just using that Grimlock and saying he was woken up by some crap or another, they made a whole new Grimlock who was supose to be on the Axilon but still the same guy???

Grimlock in Beast Wars is the Autobot Grimlock from the future. He survived the Great War and was reformatted and rebuilt as a Maximal. Much like Beast Wars Ravage is the same as G1 Ravage, but also from the future as a reformatted Predacon. Also, in G1 the Dinobots battled Shockwave and were trapped in tar; so at the time of the Beast Wars they were probably still frozen in a tar pit in the Savage Land in stasis lock.

Yeah, beer.

 

Thats my answer.

 

Your point of retcon just means it's OK for them to say F everything we told you so far, now this...

 

Hence to many cooks

 

Hence a wizard di... uuh alternate universe

 

Hence, let me get another beer and see what my shelves will do next while these guys make you jump hoops.

 

Yeah, beer.

Your point of retcon just means it's OK for them to say F everything we told you so far, now this...

 

Hence to many cooks

 

Hence a wizard di... uuh alternate universe

 

Hence, let me get another beer and see what my shelves will do next while these guys make you jump hoops.

 

Yeah, beer.

That's a rather cynical but accurate summary of what retcon is. :)

 

And you're right about "too many cooks," and I think that's why the G1 cartoon had WAY more continuity problems compared to the G1 comics. But remember that Transformers canon was born as a means to sell toys. Hasbro insisted that certain characters appear in certain parts of the canon, even if it meant potentially contradicting existing canon. The Earthforce Saga is a good example of this.

 

But this is also another reason why some writers prefer to do continuity reboots instead of building on existing continuity; no need to risk the need for a retcon. But I personally prefer building on existing canon; it's harder, but I find it more satisfying... at least, when it's done well. *cough*Beast Machines*cough*