This is a continuation of the main focus of the original Female Transformers thread before it's degeneration. That purpose being the discussion and debate over why Cybertronians have or need genders, and why there are female Transformers. This is for serious debate for those who actuallt care about this, not for those who want to joke around. To begin things, This is the final response I made to Goktimus Prime's last post in the original thread before it completely degenerated:

 

 

 

Actually to be precise the G1 manga only shows the Decepticons having wives and children. It NEVER explained how those children were created. They merely existed as a plot device to show that the Decepticons weren't really evil but were just fighting to defend their families, after which the Autobots and Decepticons agree to stop fighting. As I said before, the G1 manga had a really simply story that was aimed at early infants. Even if you wanted to accept this as evidence of sexual reproduction, it ONLY happened in the G1 manga, which means that you cannot transfer it to other TF canons.

 

Secondly, the UK comics are an expansion of the US comics, so they're in the same continuity. It's kinda funny how you're reluctant to accept canonical evidence from the UK comics, which were officially intended to be in the same continuity as the US comics, yet you tried to cite the G1 manga...

 

I never discounted the UK comics. I am looking at all of the continuities and the balancing the circumstancial evidence from each, looking at which has the greater weight from the majority of continuities. Secondly, as far as the US and UK Marvel comics go, while the UK may have been an offshoot of the US comics, they did diverge. There are differences between them, so they really aren't the exact same continuity.

 

The movie never explained how the Lithonians reproduced. You're making assumptions as you did with the Japanese G1 manga. Secondly, even IF your hypothesis was true - Lithonians are NOT Transformers. That's like discovering a species of plant that sexually reproduces and then assuming that all plants can reproduce sexually - whereas the fact is that some plants reproduce sexually, others asexually and others can reproduce both ways!

Not true. It isn't assumption. your example doesn't quite work out because in both cases the Lithones and Cybertronians have both male and female genders. We have more than enough parallels betwen them. Both races are robotic races, both races have males and females. Both races show children (Wheelie and the small children of the Lithone people running around). Logically, if you have genders and chiuldren, sexual reproduction is occuring.

 

Would you consider a virus to be living?

 

Many scientist do not because viruses don't meet all of the seven criteria that determines if something is a life form. Don't ask me what criteria they fail to meet, I don't know.

 

That doesn't mean that they can sexually reproduce. There are plenty of organisms that don't sexually reproduce.

And again, there is NO canonical evidence from either the "Primus" continuities which show that Transformers can reproduce sexually.

Yes, there are oplenty of organisms that don't sexually reproduce. However, those are simple organisms, and on top of that, none of them have genders. Genders alone is evidence of sexual reproduction in a life form.

 

Amongst the original 13 Transformers created by Primus, NONE of them have ever been shown as being able to sexually reproduce... neither has any other extremely ancient Transformer who were forged before Primus went into slumber, such as the Fallen and the Decepticon Liege Maximo.

 

Since we do not know who all of the original thirteen are, we really cannot answer that can we. We only have the identities of a few of them�€â€Alpha Trion, Vector Prime, Liege Maximo, the Fallen, Prima, and one other. We don't know who the other seven are. Some of them could be females. We simply do not have enough knowledge about the identities of the Original 13.

 

Are you high? The show was meant for KIDS.

 

Female Transformers were introduced so that girls could relate to them as characters. It's call political correctness. Same reason why G.I. Joe also have men and women of various ethnicities (white, black, Asian, hispanic etc) - so that the line can appeal to a wider audience. Transformers obviously don't need to worry about ethnicities since they're not even human, but since most of them are clearly masculine, they needed to introduce a feminine touch for the franchise to relate to girls.

 

Once again, all this roundabout speculation means sweet Powerglide all unless you can actually cough up solid canonical evidence of a Transformer having been created by means of sexual reproduction, and by that I mean two Transformers coming together, and contributing an element of their 'genetic data' to create a new individual. And I don't mean just in terms of creating a new Spark, I mean creating an entire new individual Transformer robot - Spark, body... the whole shebang. If you're only looking at Spark reproduction, then it's incomplete. True sexual reproduction means reproducing everything.

 

Really... the only way you can win this argument is to pull an X-BoB by actually citing a specific moment in official canon where sexual reproduction has undeniably occured.

 

Until you can do this, everything you've said is about as argumentatively convincing as Russell's China Teapot. Also, until you can actually do this, I don't see the purpose in continuing to even debate this issue other than just attention-seeking. :/

 

You are never going to see two Cybertronians "in the act" in a canon source because it is a kids series. If it were meant for adults, then likely we would see direct evidence. Therefore, the only evidence we have is circumstancial, and there is more than enough circumstancial evidence from multipe continuities to support sexual reproduction among Cybertronians. Secondly, the term "sex sells" does not necessarliy mean showing nudity or actual sex. It simply refers to the fact that the female characters were designed to be physically attractive, and obvioulsy feminine. While the male characters are obvioulsy masculine�€â€strong, brawny, broad-chested. Sexuality and romance, not blatant sex. You misinterpreted my meaning.

 

WTF are You talking about???

 

Sexual reproduction means that an offspring is created when two progenitors (parents) contribute genetic data which combines to form that said offpsring. In the case of Earth life, the parents will contribute half of the genetic data required to build a new individual in the form of chromosomes, in the case of humans, each parent contributes 23 chromosomes. These 2 chromosomes are then paired, thus the 46 chromosomes forming a new human being.

 

Now obviously Transformers are not carbon based organic life forms, but the only way that they could sexually reproduce would be to someone exchange 'genetic' data between two parents in order to spawn a new individual.

 

WE HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS HAPPEN!!

 

The only thing that even comes close have been:

 

1) Lio Junior - who was created from Lio Convoy's Spark - but that's only from ONE parent, so it's an asexual form of reproduction.

2) Dinobot II - who was created from 'genetic' data from the original Dinobot (cloned) and Rampage, although the actual fusion was powered by Vok technology. This is the closest thing we've ever had to sexual reproduction and it was between two MALE Transformers!! (Dinobot & Rampage) - which clearly shows that gender is completely irrelevant to Transformers procreation.

We have never seen direct evidence, but we do have plenty of circumstancial evidence. No, we don't see any of them "going at it like a couple of rabbits in heat", but that is only because it isn't appropriate for the target audience, (kids). Your own example of Deahtsaurus and Leozak being one of them. That is strong circumstancial evidence. They both have "wives and children". Wives and children means that sexual reproduction has occured off screen. In the American cartoons (also aired in Japan), we had several obviously romantic couples�€†Optimus Prime and Elitia-1, Ironhide and Chromia, Infernor and Firestar, Powerglide and Moonracer. You don't have courtship without the possibility of sexual reproduction. Reproduction is the sole purpose of courtship and romantic pairing. there is no other reason it. Secondly, there are more than enough examples of species which reproduce sexually that can also in certain circumstances do so through a process called parthenogenisis, which is the devlopment of an egg into a new life, without fertilization. It is a form of apparent asexual reproduction in an otherwise sexual species. In all actuality, it is self fertilization. A number of reptile and insect species are capable of it in real life. Also, Dinobot II was a genetically engineered being, not naturally born, so that doesn't quite work. The example of Lio Junior is an example of parthenogenisis.

 

Understand something. Sexual reproduction does not necessarily mean that two Transformers got naked and went at it like a couple of rabbits in heat, though that is one possibility. In fact, in most cases, "getting naked" seems pretty much out of the question (unless you believe some of the fan fiction out there). I think about the only one that reall could get naked would be Thunderblast from TF: Cybertron, and that is because she actually does have breasts under her armor. We can actually see them in the cartoon. Plants sexually reproduce through pollen. Many fish sexually reproduce by the female laying her unfertilized eggs and then the male coming along after and fertilizing them. There is no copulation involved. Male octopi insert the tip of one of their arms into the female to fertilize the eggs. Different sexual life forms have different methods to fertilize the egg of the female, either internal or external. The exact method is not important, nor is it appropriate in some cases.

 

So, let's break it down. In two inter-related continuities (the US and UK Marvel continuities) we have all Cybertronians being male with the exception of a single "female" created specifically for human relations. In every other continuity (G1 or otherwise) we have multiple female Cybertronians most of whom have never been to Earth or even met a human being. We have romantic pairings betwen male and female Cybertronians of both factions, and at least one clear example of nuclear families among Cybertronians (father, mother and children). We have a related race, the Lithonians, who are also divided into genders and have families and children. The circumstancial evidence is more than strong enough to prove the capability of some form of sexual reproduction among Cybertronians.

The only problem here Tramp is - you think you are right, and no one can provide anything to say otherwise. That's the way it is. You are right, there can't be a discussion, because you're not going to really hear out those who don't think there is a real sexual reasoning for Female TF's.

 

 

 

Also, I turned out to be right about Movie Bonecrusher and his transformation (his front end/grill is on his back). Just thought I'd bring that up, simply to say that BC's transformation and look still fits the movie and works as both a toy and a movie design. Cheers.

The only problem here Tramp is - you think you are right, and no one can provide anything to say otherwise. That's the way it is. You are right, there can't be a discussion, because you're not going to really hear out those who don't think there is a real sexual reasoning for Female TF's.

I'm pretty sure he made this discussion thread for a proper debate. That includes hearing everyone out.

 

But if by "hearing them out" you mean accepting real life terms to this discussion, then no. He don't want to, ansd he has no reason to hear them out. They should get an imagination before trying to post.

The only problem here Tramp is - you think you are right, and no one can provide anything to say otherwise. That's the way it is. You are right, there can't be a discussion, because you're not going to really hear out those who don't think there is a real sexual reasoning for Female TF's.

I'm pretty sure he made this discussion thread for a proper debate. That includes hearing everyone out.

 

But if by "hearing them out" you mean accepting real life terms to this discussion, then no. He don't want to, ansd he has no reason to hear them out. They should get an imagination before trying to post.

No.

I'm talking about those who talk about how the TFs were made on assembly lines, built as laborers or war machines for other races by the Quintessons, and various cartoon episode and comic moments that talk about TFs as purely sentient machines and/or machines built for various purposes that gained sentient life over time.

 

They gained life wihtout needing a male and female. So why should they need a male and a female to reproduce, when they can build a new body and place a spark in it and/or use the matrix to give it life? Shockwave gave the Constructicons life in the G1 Comics with the Matrix. That pretty much shuts down the NEED for male and females to use sex to reproduce.

I'm talking about those who talk about how the TFs were made on assembly lines, built as laborers or war machines for other races by the Quintessons, and various cartoon episode and comic moments that talk about TFs as purely sentient machines and/or machines built for various purposes that gained sentient life over time.

 

They gained life wihtout needing a male and female. So why should they need a male and a female to reproduce, when they can build a new body and place a spark in it and/or use the matrix to give it life? Shockwave gave the Constructicons life in the G1 Comics with the Matrix. That pretty much shuts down the NEED for male and females to use sex to reproduce.

Ah, I see. Then might I put in my $.02?

 

TF bodies can be built on assembly lines. What about their sparks? Those can't be mass-produced like that, and they certainly don't just float out of the sky in a body or suddenly appear in a body.

 

I think that what a female TF gives birth to is the sparks.

I'm talking about those who talk about how the TFs were made on assembly lines, built as laborers or war machines for other races by the Quintessons, and various cartoon episode and comic moments that talk about TFs as purely sentient machines and/or machines built for various purposes that gained sentient life over time.

 

They gained life wihtout needing a male and female. So why should they need a male and a female to reproduce, when they can build a new body and place a spark in it and/or use the matrix to give it life? Shockwave gave the Constructicons life in the G1 Comics with the Matrix. That pretty much shuts down the NEED for male and females to use sex to reproduce.

Ah, I see. Then might I put in my $.02?

 

TF bodies can be built on assembly lines. What about their sparks? Those can't be mass-produced like that, and they certainly don't just float out of the sky in a body or suddenly appear in a body.

 

I think that what a female TF gives birth to is the sparks.

The Matrix, Vector Sigma, and the AllSpark create Sparks. That's all that has been said in continuity. It's never been stated otherwise in stories.

G1 Comics - Matrix gave life to Aerialbots, Constructicons, and Jetfire.

G1 Cartoon - Vector Sigma gave life to Aerialbots, Stunticons.

Movie - AllSpark is said to grant TF's life.

I'm talking about those who talk about how the TFs were made on assembly lines, built as laborers or war machines for other races by the Quintessons, and various cartoon episode and comic moments that talk about TFs as purely sentient machines and/or machines built for various purposes that gained sentient life over time.

 

They gained life wihtout needing a male and female. So why should they need a male and a female to reproduce, when they can build a new body and place a spark in it and/or use the matrix to give it life? Shockwave gave the Constructicons life in the G1 Comics with the Matrix. That pretty much shuts down the NEED for male and females to use sex to reproduce.

Ah, I see. Then might I put in my $.02?

 

TF bodies can be built on assembly lines. What about their sparks? Those can't be mass-produced like that, and they certainly don't just float out of the sky in a body or suddenly appear in a body.

 

I think that what a female TF gives birth to is the sparks.

 

Depends on the continuity. The G1 show made it pretty clear that sparks, or simply "life", was handed out by Vector Sigma and not female Transformers...you know, except for all the times that New Transformers were built without the involvement of Vector Sigma or female Transformers, like The Combaticons and Dinobots. ;)

 

My point being: Transformers is not a single universe with singular rules, and even within the same generation, it can contradict itself, so franchise-wide discussions like this are pointless.

 

A discussion on how genders could work in the movie world, or how they worked in only the G1 cartoon, or only the G1 American comic, or only the Energon cartoon can be more focused and, perhaps, more fruitful.

 

So long as everyone participating in the discussion realizes that citing continuities outside the focused one will only derail your discussion and get it moved to INH, things should be fine.

Being of the cartoon continuity camp, I presume TFs (and genders) were built to mimic some humanoid life forms who demanded such features of them from the Quintessons. Orion Pax and Ariel at the 9MYA point, had very organic shapes and forms. Season 3 showing the other technological life forms from around the universe gave a similar hint. I personally prefer this explanation as it doesn't require evolution, sexual reproduction or any other concepts specific to most organic life here on earth being projected onto giant robots.

 

Insertion: I suppose the upshot of this explanation is that genders aren't necessary so much as an optional reflection of social/cultural aspects of organic beings. /Insertion

 

And certainly, other continuities with different backstories will lead to different interpretations as to plot explanations, which is fine for fans of those continuities.

 

Beyond this, not really gonna read all the pages of that previous thread. Have fun, guys.

It isn't a matter of simply needing male and female. In most TF continuities, they already are male and female. The original question was why, and what evidence from all of the continuities can answer that question.

 

The Quintessan story arch definatley adds to the mythology, but there is also the Primus origin story which has carried on throughout most of the subsequent continuities. Dreamwave was bringing in the Quintessans and how they relate to the Transformers just before the company went out of business. Yes, in the original G1 cartoon, they intimated that the Quintessans may have created the Transformers as you have said. However, even in universe, they do not know for sure if that is the truth even in that continuity. They could simply have enslaved the early Cybertronians before recorded history. We really don't know for certain because even the cartoon left things pretty vague and contradicted itself a lot. What we do know is that, in the cartoon continuity, the Quintessans had control of Cybertron for several centuries, possibly millenia, and eventually, the Cybertronians rebelled against them. We also know that even that far back there were both female and male Cybetronians. They had definate genders. We also know that the Quintessans were techno-organic, in their case part machine part bological, and as suggested in the Beast Wars and Beast Machines saga, which is suposed to be a direct offshoot of G1, Cybertron itself and its people apparently had techno-organic origins. They were not fully mechanical. We also know that even in the present, they have the capacity to heal, which means they are still techno-organic though not carbon based at all. They are true life forms not just sentient robots. However, the Quintessan origin is in complete contradiction to the Primus origin. The Primus origin states that Cyertronians were birthed from the body of Primus himself in the form of 13 original Transformers, not the creations of the Quintessans. Inj the Quintessan origin, Cybettronians weren't able to transform for many millenia until after the rebellion. In the Primus origin, they always had the ability to transform from the very beginning. So, which origin do we accept or do we accept a little of both?

 

Secondly, you aren't taking into the fact that we are talking about life forms. Do you really consider manufacturing them on assembly lines natural reproduction of a life form? I wouldn't, nor would any scientist. They have to be able to self replicate to be considered life forms.

 

Now, imbuing a protoform with a spark through the power of the matrix is one method of creating a new Cybertronian. This is accepted fact clearly stated in TF canon including TF: More than Meets the Eye #8 There is no disputing that. However, that same source states that imbuing a protoform with a spark is not the only method of creating new Cybrtronian life. There are others. We can consider building them on an assembly line analogous to us cloning a humnan being in a test tube and growing them in vats like we see in a number of science fiction series and novels (read A Brave New World by Aldus Huxley for an example of assembly line growth of people). However, does that mean that natural reproduction is lost. Given that we are talking about life forms that are clearly divided into genders, and we have clear examples of families among Cybertronians, sexual reproduction of some form is clearly in evidence even though we never see them actually "do it" on screen. And the reason for that is that it would be totally inappropriate for a kids series. On top of that, female Cybertronians appear to be extremely rare at this point in time. Kup says as much in the write-up for Arcee in TF: More than Meets the Eye #1, which is written from his point of view. IF you have few too few females, how do you perpetuate the species? You find an artificial method— the creation of protoforms and imbument of a spark, basically a form of cloning. However, that doesn't eliminate the capability of the natural method of reproduction which would be used more often if there were more females.

 

According to what is intimated in the DreamWave comics, The Quintessans did once rule Cybertron, having enslaved the Transformers some time in their distant past. It appears that when they were overthrown, they may have taken nearly all the females except a small handful. We do see a small number of them in War Within, but by the time of War and Peace, the only one we see is Arcee. In issues 9 and 10 though, we see female Cybetronians, specifically Elita-1, Firestar, Chromia, and Moonracer, all under the thrawl of the Quintessans. So, if the Quintessans did take nearly all the females when they were banished from Cybertron, that would explain why transformers would need to use imbuing protoforms with a spark for their primary method of continuing the species. Tie into that, we have the relationships between Optimus and Elita-1, Ironhide and Chromia, Inferno and Firestar, and Powerglide and Moonracer, as depicted in the cartoon, as well as the love triangle among Hot Rod, Arcee, and Springer in both the cartoon and the DW comic, and the later relationship between the Maximal Silverbolt and Black Arachnia and the marriages of Deathsaurus to Esmerelda and Leozak to Lyzak, and their respective children in the Japanese Victory manga. As more female Cybertronians appear, natural reproduction would begin to be more and more viable once again. As evidenced on Lithone, which appears to be a sister planet to Cybertron in nearly all respects, with a balanced ration of males to females, we have clear evidence of sexual reproduction in a robotic life form. We have actual families; wives, husbands, children.

I'm talking about those who talk about how the TFs were made on assembly lines, built as laborers or war machines for other races by the Quintessons, and various cartoon episode and comic moments that talk about TFs as purely sentient machines and/or machines built for various purposes that gained sentient life over time.

 

They gained life wihtout needing a male and female. So why should they need a male and a female to reproduce, when they can build a new body and place a spark in it and/or use the matrix to give it life? Shockwave gave the Constructicons life in the G1 Comics with the Matrix. That pretty much shuts down the NEED for male and females to use sex to reproduce.

Ah, I see. Then might I put in my $.02?

 

TF bodies can be built on assembly lines. What about their sparks? Those can't be mass-produced like that, and they certainly don't just float out of the sky in a body or suddenly appear in a body.

 

I think that what a female TF gives birth to is the sparks.

 

Depends on the continuity. The G1 show made it pretty clear that sparks, or simply "life", was handed out by Vector Sigma and not female Transformers...you know, except for all the times that New Transformers were built without the involvement of Vector Sigma or female Transformers, like The Combaticons and Dinobots. ;)

 

My point being: Transformers is not a single universe with singular rules, and even within the same generation, it can contradict itself, so franchise-wide discussions like this are pointless.

 

A discussion on how genders could work in the movie world, or how they worked in only the G1 cartoon, or only the G1 American comic, or only the Energon cartoon can be more focused and, perhaps, more fruitful.

 

So long as everyone participating in the discussion realizes that citing continuities outside the focused one will only derail your discussion and get it moved to INH, things should be fine.

 

While it does obviously depend on the continuity, We can't really focus on only one continuity because each has differences on how it handles various aspects of the mythology, and they do contradict each other on multiple points. However, we can look at their similarities, and where most appear to agree or at least share common evidence. In most TF continuities, we have solid evidence of Cybertronians having both male and female genders for as long as they have been in existance. Only in the Marvel continuities were females non-existant (except for Arcee in the UK comics). In all the other continuities, G1 or otherwise, there have been both male and female Cybertronians since their creation long, long ago. therefore, we have to look at all of the TF continuities and look at the most common evidence from all of them. The one comon fact in most continuities is that Cybertronians have always had two genders—male and female—though females are currently extremely rare for some unknown reason.

 

And remember, Victory is a direct offshoot of G1, and that does have clear examples of children resulting from male and female unions between Transformers. Think about it, if you have husbands and wives with children, what do you think happened off screen. Common sense should answer that question right off.