joshlowe: Whilst lust and love can be co-operative, they are not the same thing. I suppose we can conclude that Transformers are incapable of any love that is related to lust, yet they are certainly capable of love that involves deep emotional investment/bonding and the devotion and giving of one's self for the sake of another.

 

When we look at how Silverbolt always saw the goodness within Blackarachnia, even when she could not - and refused to believe otherwise... it was this indominable will that helped Blackarachnia to become a Maximal. And when Silverbolt became Jetstorm, it was Blackarachnia's unwavering commitment to Silverbolt that made her persist against incredible odds in bringing Silverbolt back. Such selfless commitment and devotion to another individual are certainly all the hallmarks of what we would associate with true love.

 

Getting someone to fall in lust with you isn't hard. It's a pushover if you're lucky enough to be physically attractive. Getting someone to actually commit themselves to a long-term relationship with you - now there lies the challenge and true mark of real love IMO.

 

Lust may be just one initial component for romantic love in humans. For Transformers, they simply bypass that first step and skip straight to the emotional level of romantic love - or I suppose from your viewpoint, Transformers lack that lust stage, so they only have that emotional stage.

 

But the fact that individuals will emotionally devote and commit themselves into exclusive relationships with each other, demonstrates that they are at very least capable of the psycho-emotional stage or level of romantic love, albeit incapable of the lust stage.

 

Without the lust factor, you could argue that it would make it very difficult for romantic love to occur, since you're arguing that lust is an important element in the initial stages of romantic love - insofar as prompting or motivating people into devoting and committing themselves. There probably is some element of truth in this, which would explain why romantic bonding between Transformers appears to be an incredibly rare event. As you pointed out, there are a limited number of female Transformers. Off the top of my head, I count 16. And amongst those, only 3 (arguably 4) have fallen in love. So yeah, the lack of lustage in TF emotional construction may explain why romantic love seems to very seldomly occur. With humans, it's hard not to go through life without falling in love with another person (and the wonderful pains of falling out of love).

 

Secondly, weren't Rattrap and Botanica an item as well?

Rattrap was only using Botanica to... score a ROOT!! ;)

You're right, lust isn't love, never said it was, but sexual and romantic attraction come from the same place.

They are different aspects of the same thing.

This is why people are only romantically attracted to people (which is falling IN love) after the onset of puberty.

It's also why people become more physically attractive to you as you fall in love with them and less if you fall out of love.

 

Being in love means to be strongly sexually and romantically attracted to someone. If you're not, you are not in love.

 

Seperately, the love we feel for family and close friends is a bond, it's trust, faith, unconditional acceptance, dedication and so on.

 

When you take that kind of love and throw in strong sexual and romantic attraction, you get what you call true love, compatibility on every conceivable level.

 

Now true love is more than just the sum of it's parts. I may have written it as "hot friend", but that's because I'm no poet and could never do it justice.

Well, that and the fact that I'm just trying to point out that you have to have strong sexual and romantic attraction, as well as deep friendship for it to grow into more.

 

Without any of these you cannot experience true love.

 

Which takes us back to Transformers and their inability to feel anything other than a strong friendship or familial bond.

As they're a sexless race without any attraction, their relationships are no different to a heterosexual's relationship with a member of the same sex.

 

And yes, the cartoon has repeatedly given us Transformers that fall in love, which I aknowledged, but it's right up there with vanishing trailers and Powerglide's light bulb heart in terms of silliness and pointlessness.

At least the beast era was possible, however unlikely.

Although all it would have taken was BA to have been given a "male" appearance and persona, and we would have seen the act you mentioned for what it was, an act of friendship.

So do you think Sam and Frodo are gay for each other? :P :P :)

 

Seriously though, you're delving into the finer semantics of what the true nature of love is. Your definition of "true love" is but one of several definitions of what we may call love.

 

A love between parent and child is a strong familial bond, yet you cannot deny that love to be true - even though it is devoid of lust. For instance, I'm sure we can all remember this terrible image from 2000:

 

A Palestinian man and his 12 year old son are caught in the middle of a crossfire in Gaza. The father shields his son with his own body. Sadly, the boy is killed and the man wounded - yet there can be no denying the unconditional love that this man had for his son.

 

And I think that brings us to the fundamental definition of love - when you are willing to devote and give of yourself to another unconditionally.

 

If you come to think that way about an exclusive individual, you can easily say that you love them.

 

So we may conclude that although Transformers may not "fall" in love, they may certainly "be" in love - as demonstrated by the unconditional caring demonstrated between Silverbolt and Blackarachnia, Air Razor/Air Razar and Tigatron and Rattrap and Botanica.

 

Remember that the Transformers, as in any worthwhile piece of science fiction, is supposed to serve as a reflection on humanity - and the familial bonding between these Transformers are obviously a metaphor for what we call love.

Seriously though, you're delving into the finer semantics of what the true nature of love is. Your definition of "true love" is but one of several definitions of what we may call love.

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When you take that kind of love and throw in strong sexual and romantic attraction, you get what you call true love

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Meaning in the context you mentioned it in.

 

So we may conclude that although Transformers may not "fall" in love, they may certainly "be" in love - as demonstrated by the unconditional caring demonstrated between Silverbolt and Blackarachnia, Air Razor/Air Razar and Tigatron and Rattrap and Botanica.

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Not quite but close.

As I said, those kinds of relationships you mention are love, but the man who shileds his son is not in love with his child, he loves him.

 

Same with Transformers; they can love platonically, but they can't fall in or be in love, because that means something different.

 

Or rather they can, because offcially they have, but there is absolutely no sense behind it.

Perhaps the fact that they can fall in love or be in love might be a vestigial remnant of Cybertron's organic origins?

 

As demonstrated in G2, the Transformers used to reproduce in a technorganic sort of mitosis... although mitosis is strictly an asexual form of reproduction... but although the ancient Cybertronian form of reproduction may look asexual, for all we know it could have been sexual.

 

I have no idea how - G2 lore offers no detailed explanation about this extinct form of mechanical binary fission aside from the staggered visions we see through Optimus Prime... but just because it looks asexual, doesn't mean that it is. After all, in the world of the Transformers, things are often More Than Meets The Eye! :D

Perhaps the fact that they can fall in love or be in love might be a vestigial remnant of Cybertron's organic origins?

 

As demonstrated in G2, the Transformers used to reproduce in a technorganic sort of mitosis... although mitosis is strictly an asexual form of reproduction... but although the ancient Cybertronian form of reproduction may look asexual, for all we know it could have been sexual.

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It's possible, but it would make no sense, would be detrimental from a biological pov to lose the ability to reproduce but keept the feelings associateed with it.

 

But for me, romance and opposite sexes is like mass shifting and where the weapons came from.

We probably could find an explanation that makes sense but why bother?

What does it actually add to the show?

Does an explanation make it any less lame?

 

In G1 the handling of romance varied from stupid, to ridiculous to outright creepy.

In the beast era it didn't seem much better, and was for the most part, really corny.

The japanese shows are a little different.

They don't take themselves as seriously as their US counterparts, and everything is slightly tongue in cheek, so it works.

 

The point is that, from concept to handling and execution, romance add's little to Transformers.

It's bad enough that "most" show females look like the designers projected fantasies, the fact that they usually act like them just makes it all the more ludicrous.

 

I don't think people are wrong for having their own explanations, if they like the concept and work it into fanfic or whatever, that's fine, but, like mass shifting, I don't think it's one of those things that's strong or neccessatry enough that we need to accept it as anything other than a writers whim.                                                             

This is just a Theory that I came up with like 2 seconds ago, but what if female transformers carry an electronic "hormone" that turns on the simulated "love' emotions in male transformers who come in contact with them?

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Then the 5 or so female Transformers attract a planet full of "men".

A little imagination will show you the chasos that would ensue.

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There's more than 5 female transformers

http://transformers.wikicities.com/wiki/Li...le_Transformers

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:roll :P

 

The 5 or so is an exaggeration made with the purpose of illustrating how few females there are by comparison.

 

Either way the point still stands.

 

If this small minority produce some kind of pheromone which provokes a reaction from the rest of the population, you have a recipe for disaster.

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seeing how megatron (g1) despised weaker tfs he probably got his forces to mass slaughter the femmes.

 

 

additionally if we're on the subject of friendship and companionship i think rampage, silverbolt and transmutate should be touched upon

It's possible, but it would make no sense, would be detrimental from a biological pov to lose the ability to reproduce but keept the feelings associateed with it.

Well that would be because the dominant life form on Cybertron shifted from organic to mechanical life. Also, the Transformers' loss of their ability to procreate was suggested to be a negative outcome of all the decadence that the Transformers had collectively accumulated as a species - a fall from grace, so to speak.

 

So as I said, such emotions could be a vestigial remnant from their organic days... much like how whales and dolphins have vestigial hip bones, despite the fact that it's utterly useless for them as legless animals.

 

But yeah, as you suggested, love in Transformers is effectively another story device used in helping to further "humanise" the Transformers.

 

Btw, not all G1 had love - the G1 comics never had any kind of romantic love beyond the "love" between Charlene and Skids... although Skids didn't love Charlene per se, he was more in love with the possibility of sharing a life without war with Charlene.

 

I think the G1 Marvel Comic writers, particularly Budiansky, were far more successful in writing the Transformers as a truly alien species. I agree that the BW Transformers, and G1 cartoon Transformers did occasionally become a little too human.

 

additionally if we're on the subject of friendship and companionship i think rampage, silverbolt and transmutate should be touched upon

 

Well, although both Silverbolt and Rampage had strong bonds with Transmutate, they were differently motivated. Silverbolt's bond with Transmutate came from his view toward Transmutate as a being in need of protection from those who would harm or use her. Reasonably altruistic. Although Rampage did also care for Transmutate, his motivation was comparatively more self-motivated. He saw Transmutate as a familiar Spark - another Transformer who was born a "freak" and rejected by all sides, belonging to none. In Rampage's cold, dark, lonely and depressed world, he saw Transmutate as his first potential companion -- someone who would not immediately judge and reject him. Someone to share his emo realm. :P

Btw, not all G1 had love - the G1 comics never had any kind of romantic love beyond the "love" between Charlene and Skids... although Skids didn't love Charlene per se, he was more in love with the possibility of sharing a life without war with Charlene.

 

I think the G1 Marvel Comic writers, particularly Budiansky, were far more successful in writing the Transformers as a truly alien species. I agree that the BW Transformers, and G1 cartoon Transformers did occasionally become a little too human.

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G1 comic continuity is my chosen continuity for reasons like that.

 

There was also a second stab at love in the G1 comic continuity btw.

Sludge briefly developed a fascination with a reporter named Joyce Meadows.

But again, it wasn't handled like being in love per se, this time more like a fascination with a species he hadn't really paid attention to before, albeit personified in her.

To fall in love...believe me I do it almost 7 days a week.  To fall in love with a pretty smile, the way a woman's hair flows gently down their shoulders.  The nape of a woman's neck and the way their eyes seem to light up the night sky.  The way you can get lost in them forever and if you keep talking with her...get to know her better and she gets to know you you start feeling romantic feelings towards her.  Based on pure astetics.  The "lust" factor aside there are times when you see a womanand see the pure beauty of her based on just theway she sits or the way she moves.  The way her beautiful mouth forms words and the brilliantly beautiful smile in her eyes and in her voice that follows every action.

 

Wiht this idea in mind, couldn't we say that the same thing that gets us about being attracted to someone we want to get to know is in the same thing at the heart of Robots being attracted to one another?  I would think that a bot would look at the glow of a Femmbot's optics, the way their brain case shines and their beautiful paintcoat.  The way their asymmetrical form glides with every step.  The beautiful sound of their voice modulator that tickles their audio receptors.  Things that inspire us to want to get to know a woman.  These are sexual in nature but it's about more than that.  It's the way you feel enamored for the one you feel amerous about.

 

Love is based on wanting to be with someone that you love spending time with and want to get to know better.  Love is based on wanting to care for someone else more than yourself and on that object of your affection making you as happy as you want to make them.  To feel as I said before...totally enamored with the one you love.  I feel that an AI

can feel these thingsjust as intensely as total humans can.

 

BTW...

 

Cybertron is a gigantic planet filled with more than just Autobot and Decepticon factions and more than just 18 particular Femmbots that we know of because of the story.  If that were the case GI-Joe would have no other women in the world beyond Scarlett and Barroness.  We have to know that there are more "people" on that planet besides what we know.  Minicons came out of nowhere and yet there they are and annoying or not the story and history of Transformers keeps getting written and re-written so we can't just say the populous can't have more than 18 female bots.  I think thats just being silly.  There has to be billions of beings on that world just as there are billions here on our world (I keep forgetting what the cencus is so I'm overshooting here). Plus more on other worlds that aren't in any kind of army or militia at all.  We just have to be able to see more the the fantasy beyond what we just see on the tele and what we read.  I'm waiting to see whatnew race of people or new faction will be made up next.

 

Edit:

 

On the sexual nature (and I know I'm bringing up a LOT of Rattrap references), didn't Rattrap talk of a bar that he was going to take Dinobot to where the Femmbots weren't wearing their chestplates?  There MUST be some kind of sexual nature on Cybertron that we don't know of.  It's not going to be shown on a kids cartoon mind you but I do believe it's there just from that reference.

...Who know's, I could be wrong.  Maybe they'll dosomething on it in the movie.

:tftongue