You can't compare breathing to wind conditions, though, that's just silly, and not an adequate comparison.

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Yes it is an adequate comparison.

 

Because it's not change that bothered people, it's the strength of the change.

 

As I've said several times, I like Beast Machines.

As I've also said, having read the UK comics, the organic influence was really not any different to what I'd already seen.

It wasn't change, just already established ideas being continued.

But I know that for show fans, it was a new concept.

 

And I also know that, compared to the cool breeze of change the comic had, Beast Machines handled change like an F5 Tornado, with all the subtlety of a drunken lothario in a club on ladies night.

 

So it is more than adequate.

 

Certainly as adequate as any phrase that oversimplifies a whole mess of issues for the sake of trying to sound clever.

Do you honestly believe that, after 11 years of sticking to one continuity, after multiple chances to try something new, be creative (the Japanese had), that Hasbro would have given us a fresh start if they could help it?

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Watch Bob Skir's interview on the BM DVDs.

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Sadly, I cannae afford it. :(

 

But as you put that as I reply, I can guess the general gist, in which case I'll say I'm still skeptical.

Not debunking. I haven't made up my mind that I'm right, but I have heard several quotes attributed to Bob Skir, and later read others that seem to contradict earlier statement.

And it wouldn't be the first time that writers have "retconned" reality.

 

But like I said, I'm skeptical, not debunking. As unlikely as it sounds, it is possible that Hasbro did change over a decades practice, though I'd still say that since that time they have gone back to their old policy.

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I just want to make sure we're understanding one another. When I say "fresh take" I don't mean abandoning everything that makes Transformers what it is. I just mean approaching it from a different perspective, giving us something we haven't seen before. On the DVDs, Skir mentions repeatedly that Hasbro wanted a fresh take on the Transformers. It was their idea to go "spiritual", and Skir was like "okay let's see how far I can push this before Hasbro pushes back." Hasbro never pushed back. This is consistent with statements he's made on bobskir.com.

 

But anyway, I think most people would agree that Beast Wars represented the most radical break from Transformers past that we've ever seen.

 

Personally, this is what I think:

 

"The Transformers" was a TV show that aired from 1984 to 1987. Period. Beast Wars is just that, "Beast Wars". It is only "Transformers" second. Look at the title screen, you'll see BEAST WARS in huge letters and TRANSFORMERS in teeny letters underneath. That's not an accident. (Indeed this is exactly what Forward and DiTillio say on the BW season 1 DVD.) Same with Beast Machines. It is "Beast Machines" first and "Transformers" second. Sure it's fun to see the G1 references in BW and BM, but I prefer to watch these shows on their own terms, each as its own series, because I believe that's the way they were intended to be viewed. As I mentioned, this belief is based on comments that the writers of these shows have made. And if that is the case, then these shows are probably best appreciated when viewed in that light.

 

So it doesn't bother me if there are inconsistencies in continuity or tone between G1 and BW and BM (because there are). I approach each show based on what it intended to accomplish. Continuity is only a minor concern to me, because after all... these shows are meant to be entertainment. You know?

You can't compare breathing to wind conditions, though, that's just silly, and not an adequate comparison.

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Yes it is an adequate comparison.

 

Because it's not change that bothered people, it's the strength of the change.

 

 

And I also know that, compared to the cool breeze of change the comic had, Beast Machines handled change like an F5 Tornado, with all the subtlety of a drunken lothario in a club on ladies night.

 

So it is more than adequate.

 

You're really gonna make me get Outback on this, aren'tcha?  :tftongue you're comparing the intake of breath into your body with the feeling of air on your body.  Technically speaking, not the same thing.  You might then want to also compare liquid entering your body to liquid leaving your body... and i know we don't want to do that.

 

Certainly as adequate as any phrase that oversimplifies a whole mess of issues for the sake of trying to sound clever.

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And that is why I busted his chops about it.  If you're gonna lay smackdown, get it right! :)  (Mike Prime, no harm intended! :thumb )

 

Yes, I am aware that it wasn't just change, it was the strength of the change.  However, if you look at the list of things I've drawn up that TFs has moved towards, it's not that big a change.  #2, I think it was handled quite the way that Colombus was handled - Everyone thought the world was flat (read: purely mechanical) since the dawn of civilized thought, but through his experience we learn that the world is round (read: had an organic core, was meant to inhabit organics as well).  Which was a pretty strong change, don't you think?  And it had to do with the real world, not a piece of fiction.  Remember how everyone thought Optimus was nuts?  (well, him acting a bit nutty didn't help..) 

 

Think about this.  Since its inception, TFs has left behind the initial concept of vehicle=>robot, gone beyond device=>robot, outgrew one-alt-mode-per-bot, proved a living creature COULD detach its head and live (fruitfully), expanded beyond TFs-must-transform.  moved to synthetic flesh as protection from the elements.  You mean to tell me the incorporation of real organics is that far-fetched? 

 

Would the people Starscreaming and whining that BMac raped their childhood (no it didn't.) be the same ones saying "NO!! THE WORLD IS FLAT YOU IDIOT!!!"?

 

How come when Terminator came out, there wasn't an uproar of "How dare you make the antagonist a mixture of robotics and organic flesh, you ruined my childhood of watching action movies where both protagonist and antagonist were purely flesh!! How dare you!!!"?

 

Yes.  I know that Beast Machines explored the idea of TFs not being solely robots anymore.  Good for you, sirs!  You took a franchise that was built on change, and said fuggit let's go for the gusto!!

 

It doesn't change the toys.  We still get two forms out of one toy.  I get as much joy transforming them as I do vehicular TFs.  We also got some really beautiful TFs that challenged what we believed to be robot modes.  The show had tons of style, and it was reflected in the toyline.  (which wasn't perfect, I know. BMac was the biggest offender of "Scale? What scale??" )

 

And what precisely would BMac have been about had they come back to cybertron, and shed their beast modes?  Another gotta-catch-em-all with the sparks?  Would we have had any of those great dialogues between Op and Megs?  any issues discussed?  Or would it have devolved to Gimme!/No it's mine!/I'm gonna tell!! ?

 

Not to mention it would have made so many of the things the Maximals went through to better themselves during the Beast Wars obsolete. 

 

At any rate, I'm not trying to get people to like the show that don't.  If everyone liked everything, we wouldn't have exciting debates like this one.  But remember, and this applies to everyone, myself included -

 

If you're going to whine, prepare to get the  :redface look.

Beast Machines sucked. It was boring and repetitive.

 

 

 

 

*waits for the first rabid fanboy to scream about how I am close minded, or not intelligent enough, or a big doo-doo head*

Beast Machines sucked. It was boring and repetitive.

 

 

 

 

*waits for the first rabid fanboy to scream about how I am close minded, or not intelligent enough, or a big doo-doo head*

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Doo-doo head!!1 You are so closed minded and don't have enuff smarts and stuff. Blah blah blah. I bet you like Armada :eek

 

Welcome to TFans :wave

Beast Machines sucked. It was boring and repetitive.

 

 

 

 

*waits for the first rabid fanboy to scream about how I am close minded, or not intelligent enough, or a big doo-doo head*

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Doo-doo head!!1 You are so closed minded and don't have enuff smarts and stuff. Blah blah blah. I bet you like Armada :eek

 

Welcome to TFans :wave

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:tflaugh indeed. Hated Armada, but enjoyed Micron immensley from what I have seen :thumb

:tflaugh indeed. Hated Armada, but enjoyed Micron immensley from what I have seen :thumb

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The intro music for Micron was better than the whole Armada series :tflaugh

This is the part where I admit that all through the BM series I waited and waited for the cast to get upgraded into cool looking chasis'. I HATED Ratrap with two wheels for legs, Fat faced Primal, Chicken legged Cheetor, and I won't even get started on Silverbolt. If I were him, I'da been pissed that I lost that awsome Jetstorm body in favour of, bleh.

 

I watched the whole series from start to finish and found it well written, it was just getting past the designs that I hated so much. To me, the Transformers were large and bulky. It gave the impression of raw power. I can understand where some doods would prefer the cyborgy, stealthy, ninja approach, but to each his own.

Beast Machines sucked. It was boring and repetitive.

 

 

 

 

*waits for the first rabid fanboy to scream about how I am close minded, or not intelligent enough, or a big doo-doo head*

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Who do you think we are? The Allspark? :tfevil

 

Anyway, to each his own. And I must give you credit, at least you say it out right and don't beat around the bush! :thumb

This is the part where I admit that all through the BM series I waited and waited for the cast to get upgraded into cool looking chasis'. I HATED Ratrap with two wheels for legs, Fat faced Primal, Chicken legged Cheetor, and I won't even get started on Silverbolt. If I were him, I'da been pissed that I lost that awsome Jetstorm body in favour of, bleh.

 

I watched the whole series from start to finish and found it well written, it was just getting past the designs that I hated so much. To me, the Transformers were large and bulky. It gave the impression of raw power. I can understand where some doods would prefer the cyborgy, stealthy, ninja approach, but to each his own.

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When I think "Transformers" I think of this:

 

 

 

Beast Wars is Beast Wars, Beast Machines is Beast Machines.

 

I don't have a problem with that approach.