Agreed. I think the designers and animators could have made things a lot easier on themselves if they hadn't gone the way they did. As far as I'm concerned, only places where passengers would sit are all that need to be intact. An engine could be faked with holoprojection; it doesn't need to be a real engine.

 

I don't want to pay my hard earned cash to see a movie made by Mr. Cutscorners McEasyonhimself.

 

Big deal; if that were done in the first place no one would know and there wouldn't be anything to complain about.

Well, then nix the hydraulics? Never asserted they were necessary -- plenty of depictions of Prime had no hydraulics. I just meant they didn't obstruct the necessary function of a human being able to sit in the interior.

 

Well, then what's going to bend his arm? A joint has to go there, and it's likely not going to be invisible in truck mode.

 

And you can't just scale up the design, with minor changes, like sticking on mirrors or using a real grill...the MP design doesn't work in the real world.

 

Then all that's needed is to ensure an interior large enough to duplicate the real world function and be "in disguise" as well.

 

Not just enough room to fit someone, it's gotta have all the bells and whistles: peddles, and legroom (which most Alts lack) and an empty trunk, etc. All of that is an issue. And combing that with honestly useful, unrestricted movement, and you get a much different design, and increasingly complex transformations.

 

Keep in mind none of these designs seem to have roof or other kibble hanging off anywhere where the designers didn't make use of it as a design element (i.e. Bumblebee's car wing doors). Whereas most Alts. are plagued by backpack syndrome. If you weighed upwards of 2 tons, and did a jump-and-roll to dodge gun fire with a Mustang roof on your back, you think that roof would still fit seamlessly into your transformation afterward?

And, the movie designs are actually much more complex than they really need to be. Does that make them bad designs? No, though some are better than others. They are just more complex than necessary to be realistic.

And I think this rather weakens the "this is more realistic than" criticism. Though this could be dealt with by writing the story around it to create a need for such complexity where none is visible to us out here.

i wonder if we blew up a Ken Doll to be 6' tall would it look photorealistic and passable as a human being?

 

Lord knows my body isnt all that complext or anything.

Nope, but not because of the size, but because of what it is made of. If blown up to full scale, it would look like a mannequin.If you blew up most of the TF toys, you would get the same result; an over-sized toy. However, some of them could look real if they were full sized, with the proper paint jobs or made from the right materials. If you were to take the MP version of Optimus Prime, for example, and built it exaclty the same, except ourely out of metal, glass, and such, at full scale, it could look real. The design itself is rather realistic because it is designed more as a scale model, than as a toy. This is also true by varying degrees with the Alternators. Yes, things like the elbows, fingers, and other joints would need some reworking, but the overall design is not all that far from realistic.

 

Nope, sorry, no way would MP Op's truck mode pass for a real one in full scale. Not with his legs and waist hanging off the back or the little clip trailer hitch or the giant hinges between his headlights and windows, or the solid grill that didn't actually allow air to pass through it, or the giant seems running through the doors that obviously keep them from being one piece or functional, or the lack of side mirrors, or...

If built to full size, his grill wouldn't be solid, he would have mirrors, and he wouldn't have giant hinges. However, his robot mode is pretty realistic. That is what I was getting at. It wouldn't take much to make a full sized MP Prime and make it look real. Yes, it would take some tweeking, minor redesign in certain parts (such as the hitch) and use of the right materials (glass, a real grill and radiator etc...), but it could be done. The legs form the back chassis with wheels and fuel tanks. My point is that you could take the basic design of the MP Optimus Prime, and, using a real Semi truck, make it transform into that design, using that transformation, and have it look like a real robot.

 

I'm pretty sure building to full size means building the exact same thing at a bigger scale. Otherwise you're talking about changing the design...which means the design doesn't work.

 

And how would you lose the hinges without making him no longer a Transformer? Or get rid of the giant hydrolics for his elbow joints on the back of the cab? And it would still be a cab with no functional interior, or openable doors, which isn't very realstic.

 

And, Glue, seams dissapearing and no longer being visible is part of the suspension of disbelief. When I complain about MP Prime's seams, I'm talking about where they directly cross and remove functionality from parts of the truck, ala the doors. The movie designs, thus far, do not appear to have that problem.

No, Hobbes, it does not mean that the basic design doesn't work. And, no, it does not mean simply building the exact same thing, just bigger. Also, having the seams disappear is not part of the suspension of disbeliefe. In fact, it can destroy suspension of dis beliefe if it is done wrong, if too many seams simply disappear.

The fact that the original TFs had larger parts of the car as body parts has nothing to do with the fact that they were small toys.

You can believe that if you want to.

 

As for MP Optimus, yes, he is fully articulated. As I mentioned before, a robot would not have exactly the same amount of articulation that a human has. Some joints would have greater articulation, others would have more limited. would a robot be able to cross his arms, straight, intersecting at the elbows? No. However, it could rotate his shoulders a full 360°, which is something we humans cannot do.

Shrug 20th Prime's shoulders sometime.

 

Or make him do anything else that might be required of someone who has to operate normally and fight in combat. He's a brick by real "articulation" standards, but we think he isn't because he's more articulated than most Transformers toys.

Why would he need to shrug his shouders? And, no, he isn't a "brick" by real articulation standards. The model has how many points of articulation? 30? 40? Let's see, neck:up and down, and full rotation, Check. Shoulders: almost 90° to either side abd full rotation, Check. Elbows: 90° flex and full rotation, Check. Wrists, full rotation, and limited flexion, Check. Thumb abnd fingers: Limited due to size, but still articulated. Waist: full rotation; Check. Hips, full mobility front and back, and to the sides, Check. Knees, 90° flex and limited rotation, Check. Ankles, full natural flexion and rotation, Check. I would call that fully articulated. Is it Human range? No. However, it isn't Human. Thus, he would not have the same articulation as a Human. Some parts would be more articulated, others less articulated. And, as someone who was in the military, yes, this model can get into nearly any military combat position. That is full articulation.

Lt's continue that train of thought. Where are the fenders? Where are the bumpers? Where is the car's interior? what happened to all of the other body panels that got broken down or bent out of shape? That is what I am talking about. The car body panels did not need to be broken down as much as they were, and, as a result, they become lost.

 

So? I can see parts of the alt. mode. I don't need to see every part. We'll see where those parts go when we watch the movie on screen.

 

Actually, yes, they do. Larger body panels mean more protection, and better disguise because there are fewer seams. By breaking down a car body along its exisitng seam lines and attaching those panels to the robot body, the transformation makes for a more realistic auto mode. It is also more functional because you provide greater protection to the internal mechanisms.

 

If you're arguing that the panels on a modern car is any kind of useful protection at all, I don't know what to say, because you're not living in the same world I am.

 

If you're suggesting that, because they're alien robots, the car is actually made from some super strong material, then I just say the current designs probably use that same material to build these internal components you're so worried about protecting.

 

Actually, a semi truck has quite a few pistons and hydraulic lines all over the place.

 

But not there, where his elbows are. You can't just slap that stuff in random places and say it's alright because it would have them someplace else.

 

How do the movie designs solve that issue any more than the toys or cartoon did? They don't It is simply taken for granted.

 

When the film comes out, you'll see it all happen on screen. It won't be taken for granted then. If it is a tremndous cheat, like the old cartoon, you'll find me Starscreaming alongside yo uon July 5th. But for now, you're calling the filmmakers liars without any contrary proof, and I don't roll like that.

 

The original G1 toys had actual cockpits which ccould fit a small figure in, and wasn't filled up with robot parts.

 

But not any you would confuse for a real car's cockpit. It can't just be one random seat shoved inside, it's got to look like a real car,or again, the Decepticons look through the window, and BOOM! No more disguise.

 

Also, the Alternators models did solve that problem. Are you going to say that they are any less realistic in design than the movie designs simply because they aren't as complex?

 

The Alternators solve the problem by remaining at the 1/24 scale. You blow up Alt. Jazz to a full scale car, and he's still got no leg room in front of his seats for peddles, or any room in his trunk, because his robot parts grew just as big, and still need somewhere to store.

 

Also, when MP Prime transforms into truck mode, he does have a cockpit with a single seat. Is it as open and detailed as it could be? No. Could it be, without changing the basic transformation and aesthetic? Yes.

 

No, it couldn't. To make it look like a real cab, you've got to cut out and remove most of his arms and head. And then he can't transform. That mass has to go somewhere. Hell, to even allow a human to open the door and climb in the cab you've got to cut out a huge chunk of his arm.

Well, then nix the hydraulics? Never asserted they were necessary -- plenty of depictions of Prime had no hydraulics. I just meant they didn't obstruct the necessary function of a human being able to sit in the interior.

 

Well, then what's going to bend his arm? A joint has to go there, and it's likely not going to be invisible in truck mode.

 

You don't need hydraulic pistons to flex and elbow joint, when you can use a rotary actuator.

 

And you can't just scale up the design, with minor changes, like sticking on mirrors or using a real grill...the MP design doesn't work in the real world.

 

Then all that's needed is to ensure an interior large enough to duplicate the real world function and be "in disguise" as well.

 

Not just enough room to fit someone, it's gotta have all the bells and whistles: peddles, and legroom (which most Alts lack) and an empty trunk, etc. All of that is an issue. And combing that with honestly useful, unrestricted movement, and you get a much different design, and increasingly complex transformations.

 

Keep in mind none of these designs seem to have roof or other kibble hanging off anywhere where the designers didn't make use of it as a design element (i.e. Bumblebee's car wing doors). Whereas most Alts. are plagued by backpack syndrome. If you weighed upwards of 2 tons, and did a jump-and-roll to dodge gun fire with a Mustang roof on your back, you think that roof would still fit seamlessly into your transformation afterward?

Actually, no, they don't. The Alternator desings have fully detailed interiors with all the "bells and whistles". As far as the "roof kibble" you are copmaining about. What is so unrealistic about that. Given that the car parts wouldn't really be glass and thin sheet metal, but rather armor plate and transparent armor that is shaped to mimmick a car roof, there is no reason why it wouldn't fit back into place. It also provides valuable armor protection to the spinal column.

The Alternator desings have fully detailed interiors with all the "bells and whistles".

Don't forget the Fred Flintstone floorboards.

 

Please. This is laughable. There's enough detail in the Alternators for them to work as toys. Nothing more.

 

And really, I have no sympathy for people who want these TFs to look more like toys or cartoon characters. Believe me, I would be complaining if they were giant G1-looking guys onscreen. It'd show no imagination or creativity. No reason for making a live-action movie. Not if you're just going to give us stuff we've already seen elsewhere.

Actually, no, they don't. The Alternator desings have fully detailed interiors with all the "bells and whistles". As far as the "roof kibble" you are copmaining about. What is so unrealistic about that. Given that the car parts wouldn't really be glass and thin sheet metal, but rather armor plate and transparent armor that is shaped to mimmick a car roof, there is no reason why it wouldn't fit back into place. It also provides valuable armor protection to the spinal column.

 

Which Alternator has appropriate leg room and the needed peddles to operate it? And please post a pic.

 

Meanwhile, I'll post a link to a pic where you can clearly see the giant robot legs in the backseat of an Alternator. Third pic down on the page. See the giant knee joint in place of a backseat, even though it's a four door car?

 

Alternator designs are toy designs. They do not work on the big screen in a live action movie. They are. Not. Good enough.

 

Also, robots do not have spinal columns in the traditional sense. If they can build armor for it, they can build it out of armor.

Lt's continue that train of thought. Where are the fenders? Where are the bumpers? Where is the car's interior? what happened to all of the other body panels that got broken down or bent out of shape? That is what I am talking about. The car body panels did not need to be broken down as much as they were, and, as a result, they become lost.

 

So? I can see parts of the alt. mode. I don't need to see every part. We'll see where those parts go when we watch the movie on screen.

 

Actually, yes, they do. Larger body panels mean more protection, and better disguise because there are fewer seams. By breaking down a car body along its exisitng seam lines and attaching those panels to the robot body, the transformation makes for a more realistic auto mode. It is also more functional because you provide greater protection to the internal mechanisms.

 

If you're arguing that the panels on a modern car is any kind of useful protection at all, I don't know what to say, because you're not living in the same world I am.

 

If you're suggesting that, because they're alien robots, the car is actually made from some super strong material, then I just say the current designs probably use that same material to build these internal components you're so worried about protecting.

 

Actually, a semi truck has quite a few pistons and hydraulic lines all over the place.

 

But not there, where his elbows are. You can't just slap that stuff in random places and say it's alright because it would have them someplace else.

 

How do the movie designs solve that issue any more than the toys or cartoon did? They don't It is simply taken for granted.

 

When the film comes out, you'll see it all happen on screen. It won't be taken for granted then. If it is a tremndous cheat, like the old cartoon, you'll find me Starscreaming alongside yo uon July 5th. But for now, you're calling the filmmakers liars without any contrary proof, and I don't roll like that.

 

The original G1 toys had actual cockpits which ccould fit a small figure in, and wasn't filled up with robot parts.

 

But not any you would confuse for a real car's cockpit. It can't just be one random seat shoved inside, it's got to look like a real car,or again, the Decepticons look through the window, and BOOM! No more disguise.

 

Also, the Alternators models did solve that problem. Are you going to say that they are any less realistic in design than the movie designs simply because they aren't as complex?

 

The Alternators solve the problem by remaining at the 1/24 scale. You blow up Alt. Jazz to a full scale car, and he's still got no leg room in front of his seats for peddles, or any room in his trunk, because his robot parts grew just as big, and still need somewhere to store.

 

Also, when MP Prime transforms into truck mode, he does have a cockpit with a single seat. Is it as open and detailed as it could be? No. Could it be, without changing the basic transformation and aesthetic? Yes.

 

No, it couldn't. To make it look like a real cab, you've got to cut out and remove most of his arms and head. And then he can't transform. That mass has to go somewhere. Hell, to even allow a human to open the door and climb in the cab you've got to cut out a huge chunk of his arm.

 

Hobbes, you are missing my point entirely. My point is that the Movie designs, however good or bad as people think they are, are exponentially more complex than they need to be. As far as the Alts go, yes, they would have enough leg room for peddles and for a person to fit inside of it. As far as the robot parts, those can break down further at a larger size than any toy, and that can be done without changing the overall aesthetic. The issue is the car parts and where they go in robot mode, as well as the over-all transformation. and appearance. Keep it simple, and form follows function.