Same for the Japanese comics, not everyone had access to those similar to not everyone having access to the UK comics. I feel that if you are going to make something canonical then release it world wide so that everyone can see/read it.

 

Bollocks. Anything written under licence from HasTak is officially canon. As mentioned before, it is not always practical to release everything everywhere, there are factors like commercial viability to consider.

 

The BW movie did feature Primal but without knowing how he was featured I cannot really comment on that. In Beast Wars, Primal was on his way to join the Matrix but was retrieved by Rhinox.

 

How this was possible I do not know but it had something to do with the tranwarp wave front. So how could he end up on another planet and possibly time?

Time is relative. During the time that Primal's spark was joining the Matrix, it was momentarily displaced in time and space, rematerialising on the planet Gaea back in the Maximal's original era (i.e.: Japanese BW time). This was made possible via the wormhole (I think it was called the teleportation gate) that the Predacons used to summon Majin Zarak (who was also from another time and space).

 

The writers for that movie probably had one major reason for including Primal which is to link their show to the US show. Still, I do not "buy" it as the original writers were not aware of it.

First of all, Vancouver is not in the US. It's in Canada, eh.

And just because the original writers weren't aware of it, does not mean the other stories are not canon. Silly. Would you discount Star Trek Deep Space Nine as being non-canonical because Gene Roddenberry was never aware of it?

 

As I said before, anything made under licence from HasTak is officially canon. And any licenced story which presents itself as being part of another existing canon, is therefore part of that continuity, unless later retconned. The Marvel UK continuity is generally accepted as being in the same continuity as Marvel US - in an expansionary form. The Star Wars novels and comics are also generally accepted as being in continuity with the movies (and Lucas acknowledged this by including Expanded Universe characters in his movies, such as Aayla Secura, who was originally created in the Dark Horse comics - the Clone Trooper Commanders' Episode III uniforms were supposed to be based on the design of the ARC Troopers, which only exist the expanded universe (Lucas confirms this in the DVD audio commentary)). I'm no Star Trek fan, but I'd wager that Star Trek would have a similar relationship between its books, television series and movies -- various writers but one singular continuity.

 

Just because Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio were not aware of BWII and BW Neo at the time they wrote Beast Wars does not in itself make BWII and BW Neo out of the Canadian continuity. What would make it out of continuity is if something were retconned to make one series clash with the other on a canonical scale. Hell, sometimes when that kind of stuff does happen, we often still accept it as being in-continuity - if retcon can be applied. Look at the G1 cartoon -- continuity errors abounded in that series, but by the law of retcon, it meant that the most recent version of a story is the official version.

 

The Canadian BW series is also largely accepted as being generally in continuity with G1. Would you discount BW as being in the same continuity as G1 because the G1 writers were not aware of BW?

 

I mean how would you feel if you had written one of the coolest cartoons in history only to realize that someone else is using your characters and stories in their own show.

 

And I do not mean simply use them as was done in Universe but actually adding stuff to storylines you wrote and changing them. That would annoy me too.

That wouldn't annoy me. I doubt it would annoy most professional writers. They're not geeky fanboys (well, not all of them). Writers accept the fact that their stories become the property of the company that hires them - in the case of Transformers, property of HasTak - and when HasTak allows other animation or publishing companies to purchase the licence to write a TF story, it is also a licence to create or alter continuity as the writer(s) see fit. I would honestly be flattered if another writer wanted to continue or expand on something I'd written. I'm sure the Roddenberry family feels a similar regard to DS9, Voyager etc.

 

 

Besides the Japanese shows really contradict the US shows in a few ways. The US shows still use the Matrix but Primal is not carrying it. Its fate is unknown but it is revered above anything else save for possibly Primus.

 

 

The Japanese shows use the Matrix as well but Big Convoy is actually carrying it. Ok, I can live with that. However, Big Convoy can hook up his cannons to the Matrix boosting their power greatly.

 

Which just rubs me the wrong way. The Matrix is a sacred relic, the most sacred relic in Transformers history, and the Japanese turn it into a powerpack. Or even worse, a weapon.

 

That blatant disgerard of what is established in G1 and in Beast Wars regarding the Matrix makes it really hard for me to see those series as canon. Afterall, they do not treat anything that happened in G1/BW as canon either.

 

In G1 they also treated the Matrix as a powerpack as it had to be charged in Headmasters. The Matrix was emptied, yes but it was up to everyone to refill it with wisdom. The US show never mentioned it being rechargable.

The Creation Matrix (or Autobot Matrix of Leadership) is held by any Maximal in Beast Wars - Canadian, Japanese or otherwise. The only character in BW that holds the Creation Matrix is Optimus Prime, and the only time we see it is in Optimal Situation. The Matrix that the BW TFs refer to is the All-Spark Matrix, which is more like the cosmic mothernode ("afterlife") that all TF Sparks are destined to rejoin (and thus all are one). Japanese BW does not contradict this in any way. It expands on it by showing us that Maximal leaders carry their own personal Matrices of more limited power. Optimus Primal has one, as does Lio Convoy and Big Convoy. Optimus Primal uses the power of his Maximal Matrix to boost himself up as Burning Convoy (whose name has been retconned in Robot Masters as Burning Beast Convoy) and Lio Convoy used his Lesser Matrix to become Flash Lio Convoy. Lio Convoy also combined the power of his Matrix with Big Convoy's Matrix to defeat Unicron. The origins of the Maximal Matrices have yet to be explained, but they certainly do not contradict the existence of the Autobot Matrix or the All-Spark Matrix. You're confusing the Maximal Matrices for the Autobot Matrix. Even American BW continuity shows different Matrices existing and being used - Shokoract gained immense power from the Matrix of Conquest - a Matrix created by Unicron's Dark Essence (called Angolmois Energy in BW Neo).

 

Which brings up another question. Why should US fans see the Japanese shows as canon as the Japanese do not see the US shows as canon.

The Canadian show is seen as canon. Hence why Primal fought alongside Lio Convoy to defeat Majin Zarak.

 

There are several examples besides the Matrix most of which are found in G1.

 

 

1 A lot of Autobots who died in the movie are suddenly back.

 

2 Galvatron is no longer insane in Headmasters, not the way he used to be during season 3. He does grow insane after the descruction of Cybertron. He is in fact a completely different character. Galvatron destroyed Starscream for betraying him, yet he does not destroy Megazarak for doing that and destroying Cybertron? Lame  :tdown

That's no worse than the continuity contradictions that already existed in US G1.

e.g.: The Constructicons created Megatron on Cybertron - 9 million years later Megatron would create the Constructicons on Earth... HUH?! Yes, I know that fans have created an explanation for this, but such an explanation was never officially confirmed. And I'm glad that they cured Galvatron in Headmasters - I hate the US insane Galvatron... he's so dangerously incompetent, he could run for U.S. President!

 

You also forgot the fact that WHEELJACK appears in Transformers Victory, where he and Perceptor rebuild Ginrai as Victory Leo. :P

 

3 A lot of other characters are also changed. We see Computron but he is just another combiner instead of the living supercomputer that he actually is. The same goes for Cyclonus and Scourge, both creations of Unicron and quite rightly feared by all other Decepticons. Here they are used as comic relief. How disrespectful.

No more disrespectful than what Season 3 did to Grimlock and Galvatron. Grimlock was not a complete Powerglide-tard in Seasons 1 and 2, and Galvatron was not an insane Wheelie in the movie. As Me Grimlock No Bozo Me Grimlock King has also stated several times in other threads, Beast Machines also changes some of the characters from Beast Wars - e.g.: Rhinox, Megatron, Optimus Primal... yet BM is still considered in-continuity with Beast Wars.

 

One reason why Armada and Energon splintered off from mainstream continuity is because it is difficult to write stories in continuity without contradicting pre-established canon. This is also why Dreamwave and IDW have also splintered off with their own versions of G1 canon. Writing stories within pre-established canon can be done well, but it's hard.

What can I say besides point well taken? You being up excellent arguments.

 

But just because Hasbro liscenses it, does not nessecarily make it canon. The Star Trek books are licensed by Paramount and the writers are required to keep events in their books in line with earlier books but there is no indiation if they are canon or not. Last I heard was that Paramount does not take them in account when making the shows.

 

And I think that is only fair. I mean with the amount of books and comics that can come out it is very difficult for a fan to keep up. Better keep it simple.

 

Having never seen the Japanese shows I obviously was not aware of the fact that Big Convoy never had the Creation Matrix in his possesion.

 

Still, that does not leave out the Japanese G1 series in which the Maxtrix is seen as a powerpack.

 

That is what I mean when I say that the Japanese shows are not in line with the US shows. Galvatron is suddenly sane, lots of other characters who should be dead are back, the Matrix and so on.

 

As a longtime Star Trek fan I would think that Roddenberry would indeed be proud of the newer shows as they do add a lot to the Star Trek Universe. However, I am not so sure if the creators of Transformers feel the same way.

 

I mean, I saw Headmasters and it is a show nothing like the US cartoon. That is not to say that it is a bad show in itself but it is nothing like the classic Transformers show.

 

The later Star Trek shows would still use similar music to the original shows for instance. One can instantly recognize it as Star Trek. Headmasters does not use the classic music at all.

 

I feel (and I am sure a lot of other fans feel the same way) is that Headmasters is more like any general anime than Transformers. Masterforce is even worse with humans taking control of Transformers.

 

I am sure that is not what the people who thought up the concept of Transformers had in mind and I think it is not a development they would like.

 

As for the characters. During BM a lot of characters were different but this can be explained logically. Silverbolt for one is far more gritty and less "noble" than he used to be but Megatron did turn him into Jetstorm which must have been a terrible experience for him.

 

Same with Rhinox and that is probably what made him evil. I for one never cared much about the "new" Rattrap but this is also explainable. Having been reformatted into this new and in his eyes worthless form probably hurts his self-esteem a lot.

 

In BW he was not the strongest or the fastest but he did have loads of gadgets he could use and occasionally saved the day. In this new robot form he does not have any of those untill he finds out he can use his tail.

 

I rather liked the insane Galvatron, gave the character a nice chance from the regular leader. Headmasters really ruined the character as far as I am concerned.

 

They probably thought 2 insane leaders was too much because Megazarak was the most insane leader there ever was. Destoying Cybertron was the stupidest thing he could have done but he still did it.

 

"One reason why Armada and Energon splintered off from mainstream continuity is because it is difficult to write stories in continuity without contradicting pre-established canon. This is also why Dreamwave and IDW have also splintered off with their own versions of G1 canon. Writing stories within pre-established canon can be done well, but it's hard."

 

Hard? I think it is nearly impossible.

 

That is the main problem with Transformers, it could have been up to par with Star Trek, Star Wars or Lord Of The Rings which are intricate universes with lots of interesting stories. But sadly that can never be the case for Transformers as there have been too many writers with different and contradicting idea's.

 

What Hasbro/Takara should do is leave the existing universes alone. Forever. Anything that is released now should be either in a new universe or in a different reality (such as the IDW G1 comics).

 

Plenty of stuff still to explore such as Hearts Of Steel. That is the fun part about those comics not tied to the regular series, one can do anything.

 

They should just start with a completely new show with nothing resembing the older shows. New leaders and so on. And no more humans but I doubt that is ever gonna happen.  :tfsad

1. If it's licensed by HasTak, then it is officially canon. These canons may not be part of the same continuity (e.g.: RiD vs everything else :P) , but they are official. The fact that you may not like it is irrelevant.

 

2. The G1 cartoon has always contradicted itself, even within the US series alone. I've already provided one example - there are many more. The Japanese series claims itself to be part of the same continuity as the first three seasons of the US series - and as a licensed story from Takara, it is therefore official. The fact that you or the writers of the US series may not like it is irrelevant.

 

3. Yes, Japanese G1 cartoon does give a very different take on G1 mythos. Some people like it, some don't. But it is, nevertheless, official canon. The fact that you or the writers of the US series may not like it is irrelevant.

 

 

Hard? I think it is nearly impossible.

 

That is the main problem with Transformers, it could have been up to par with Star Trek, Star Wars or Lord Of The Rings which are intricate universes with lots of interesting stories. But sadly that can never be the case for Transformers as there have been too many writers with different and contradicting idea's.

 

What Hasbro/Takara should do is leave the existing universes alone. Forever. Anything that is released now should be either in a new universe or in a different reality (such as the IDW G1 comics).

 

Plenty of stuff still to explore such as Hearts Of Steel. That is the fun part about those comics not tied to the regular series, one can do anything.

 

They should just start with a completely new show with nothing resembing the older shows. New leaders and so on. And no more humans but I doubt that is ever gonna happen.  :tfsad

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(één) It is hard, but not nigh impossible. Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio did a commendable job in fitting BW mythos with G1 through research by talking with fans, reading tech specs, Marvel comic back issues and viewing footage from the cartoon and movie. And none of this was directed by Hasbo - it was a decision made by the producer and writers of the show. They made a few mistakes (it happens - they're only human), but otherwise did a remarkable job considering that these people knew virtually nothing about Transformers when they were first commissioned to write Beast Wars.

 

(twee) The G1 cartoon is really the only canon that significantly contradicts itself. All other canons seldomly conflict with themselves so severely and so frequently. For example, the Marvel comics may have been a different continuity from the cartoon (although the comics did come first), the comics very rarely ever contradicted itself. Continuity was very well maintained in the comics -- even moreso when Furman took over the writing helm of the US series, as it allowed the UK expansion to come full circle (e.g.: the story of the Mechannibals and the Matrix Quest are expansions of the UK comics - thus expanding on expansion!). So although Transformers has many different universes, each universe is reasonably consistent within it's own continuity... except for the G1 cartoon. Boo.

 

(drie) Hasbro has left the existing universes alone. The G1 universe has been untouched since Beast Machines ended. It still continues via the OTFCC Universe comics, but only in an expansionary capacity. All the recent comic books and cartoons have been new continuities. So I don't know what you're complaining about. :P

Cannot really argue with you there.

 

It is interesting that you should mention that the Japanese series claims to be a continuation on the first 3 seasons of the US series instead of claming that it is. A subtle distinction.

 

Headmasters as a stand-alone show is decent but if I think of it as a continuation of the US cartoon it becomes rather bad for me. Barely any of the classic elements from the US cartoon is kept. (Classic gun sounds/new Transformers not using the classic Transformation sound/classic intro.)

 

Granted the show does not contradict itself anymore which is a good thing but a lot of the things the US show had are lost. Of course the Japanese never had these things in their version of the first 3 seasons but for US fans the loss is noticable.

 

They did succeed in one thing: they made Daniel and Wheelie even more annoying than the US show made them.

 

I shudder to think what Masterforce will be like. I try to keep an open mind but a lot of things in the show rub me the wrong way.

The exposure to the quantum surge is not consistent in its effect. After all, Airazor and Tigatron were also aboard the bridge of the Axalon and bombarded by the quantum surge, yet neither of them became Transmetals. Depth Charge's Skyhopper was hit by a quantum surge when he appeared in pre-historic Earth time and space... and the fact that his body was glowing white indicated that he was becoming a Transmetal - in fact, it was the quantum surge that made him lose control of his Skyhopper and crash on Earth.

 

actually, the writers said Depth Charge is a transmetal because of residual elements of the surge left in earth's atmosphere. The protoforms were all transmetalized..which doesn't help with the coic becasue then you wouldn't have regular beast modes. Also, some of the pods were altered creating the fuzors, who are part transmetal. I think Tigatron and Airrazor weren't trametalised becasue they were formed on earth. The transmetal effct only affected transformers who were activated before coming to earth. The ones not affcted were either activated on earth or in a cr chamber/tank

I disagree. I found Daniel and Wheelie far more annoying in the US cartoon. The real irritating thing about Daniel and Wheelie in the US cartoon is that they are utterly useless. If you deleted these two characters from existence in the post-movie seasons, it would NOT change the outcome of the Transformers mythos. So Ultra Magnus wouldn't have a birthday. Who gives a Blot? To that extent, it makes them even more annoying than Jar Jar Binks. Yes, Jar Jar Binks talks like a baby and is a clumsy git, but he is not useless. Jar Jar was essential in allowing Queen Amidala to contact Boss Nass, and thus instrumental in forging a working alliance between the Naboo and Gungans. This alliance was essential in the attack on Theed. In Episode II, Jar Jar was essential in legislation of the military act and granting supreme executive powers to Chancellor Palpatine - the very inception of the Empire. Removing Jar Jar from existence would mean that the battle of Theed would never have been fought or won, and the Empire would have been conceived quite differently, if at all.

 

Daniel and Wheelie were important in the movie - Daniel had to save Spike, Bumblebee, Cliffjumper and Jazz, and Wheelie helped the Dinobots save Kup and Hot Rod, and gave the Autobots the means to flee Quintessa. But after the movie, they were bugger-all useless!! Would the outcome of Rebirth change if you removed Daniel? Arcee wouldn't become a Headmaster. So what?! In the Japanese cartoon, Wheelie was just as useless, but at least he never spoke in those Powerglideed up rhymes in the Japanese script! Daniel on the other hand played a more important role in the Headmasters mythos. He saved the Autobots from that freaky Asteroid, but more importantly, he was a pivotal catalyst in the character development of Sixshot. This in turn drastically effects the outcome of the Headmasters story.

 

Don't get me wrong, Headmasters Daniel and Wheelie are still really annoying -- I hate the fact that Daniel and Wheelie's Japanese voices are done by women, and sound like women... but I find them less annoying than in the US series. Mind you, that's not hard. ;)

 

Daniel and Wheelie never appear after The Headmasters. In Masterforce, the humans who appear in the show are either the pilots of the Godmaster Transtectors, or are actually Autobot Pretenders - the Japanese Pretenders can shrink themselves down to human size when in their shells (and also wear normal clothes), thus becoming more effective robots in disguise in the Autobots' case. Although the Decepticons didn't look human, the ability to change size was advantageous. In full size, the Autobot Pretenders were always in their armoured human forms.

 

 

In Victory, the main human cast consists of Star Sabre's adopted son, Jan, and his schoolmates Illumina and Joyce. They're pretty cool kids - much like Spike... they provide moral support for the Autobots, but unlike Daniel, they don't get in the way. They're not as courageous as Spike, but then again, they are much younger. In Zone, there are two human characters - Kain and his talking flying bunny Emusa, refugees from the planet Feminia which was destroyed by Decepticons (and where Star Sabre sacrificed himself attempting to save refugees from an exploding planet. And there is also the Earth human Akira, who is also saved from Decepticons and befriends Kain. To this day, we don't know if Akira was a boy or girl. Weird, huh? (Akira can be a girl or boy's name).

 

actually, the writers said Depth Charge is a transmetal because of residual elements of the surge left in earth's atmosphere. The protoforms were all transmetalized..which doesn't help with the coic becasue then you wouldn't have regular beast modes. Also, some of the pods were altered creating the fuzors, who are part transmetal. I think Tigatron and Airrazor weren't trametalised becasue they were formed on earth. The transmetal effct only affected transformers who were activated before coming to earth. The ones not affcted were either activated on earth or in a cr chamber/tank

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In that case, perhaps the ones who became Transmetals were already created on Cybertron but placed in stasis for duration of the expeditionary voyage - much like Protoform X, only for far less malicious reasons. The non-Transmetals must be "new-borns." As for Transmetal 2 Optimus Minor... erm.... LOOK BEHIND YOU, A PURPLE DISTRACTION!! *flees*

Personally I disliked Wheelie and Daniel a lot more in the Japanese cartoons just because they were always present. In the US cartoon at least there were episodes without them.

 

They did play a large role but it is not as if that was not done on pupose. I mean, Marissa Fairborne could also have disabled that asteroid or Carly for that matter. Why did it have to be Daniel?

 

And I do not think it is bad if their voices are done by women. Bart Simpson's voice is done by Nancy Cartwright and I do not mind that one bit.  :tflaugh

 

But I think Daniel and Wheelie were annoying in both cartoons with one difference, the role Daniel was forced into in Headmasters (no parent would let him go away with the Autobots) and the fact that they were ALWAYS there makes Headmasters win that one.

 

Take a look at "Ghost In The Machine". Excellent episode featuring Starscream and Unicron but no a single shot of Wheelie and Daniel.

 

I does not really make sense not to use Daniel and Spike in the later cartoons. I would imagine they woud look the Autobots up and they are already familiar with the Transformers anyways.

 

Weird? I think not knowing if someone is a boy or girl is not quite as weird as a flying talking bunny.

 

(Akira is not just a boy or a girl, it is also a type of starship.  :tflaugh )

 

Names like that are very common though. In Voyager Elite Force, the player can play as either Alexander or Alexander Munroe. The story is the same and either of these names can be shortened to Alex which means that only one line needs to be recorded for both versions.

 

Ps- I really liked JarJar Binks. I hope they make a Transformer out of him.  :tflaugh

They did play a large role but it is not as if that was not done on pupose. I mean, Marissa Fairborne could also have disabled that asteroid or Carly for that matter. Why did it have to be Daniel?

You know... that's so true! Fair enough, Spike was out of action that episode. Marissa Fairborne wasn't around (she doesn't appear in any post S3 eps, US, JP or otherwise), but Carly was there. They had a choice of sending out an adult woman, who has previously proven to be 'action-oriented' (sure, it was in her youth, but she still looks pretty fit as an adult) - but nooo... they send the kid instead. WTF!?

 

Yeah.. Daniel and Wheelie just suck. Period. I think I'll just go read the first issue of the neo-Wreckers comic where Daniel and Wheelie DIE. ;D Arcee mourned for their death, but I sure didn't...

You gotta hate those two

Remember that Cybertron is just a dub of Galaxy Force. Downshift is a Cybertron-exclusive toy and never released in Japan, therefore he will never appear in the show. Ditto Armourhide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cybertron isn't JUST a dub of GF... that's where lots of ppl misconcieve. Plus Menasor and Quickmix are Cyb-exclusive toys that were featured in the show... how do you explain that?

 

 

 

...but I still shudder when I hear "Thunderblast", or her voice, and don't get me started on Override :tfmad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

nah not just a dub. they buggered the good japanese plot and made it lame. Just so they could have unicron... stupid.