Okay, here's the thing. Spider-Man and the Hulk and all of that are established franchises that have been around for like 40 years. They've spawned multiple TV shows etc. in the past; the general public is aware of them as "institutions". The Transformers is, to the general public, a toy line from the 80's with a cheesy cartoon. Sure they made Spider-Man toys and all that, but Spider-Man didn't start off as a toy line. It's not a toy line at heart. That makes a huge difference in how people perceive what the property "is". The Transformers has also only been around for 20 years, unlike all of those other properties. It's just not on the same level. And it won't ever be.

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I actually think it can be on the same level.

 

In the UK, comics are nowhere near as big as in the US.

 

In fact, back in the '80's, UK comics were silly slapstick comics without any plot.

And 'the masses' honestly believed that US comics like Batman were as corny as the  '60's show.

So over here at least, comics and comic movies were mostly taken as seriously as toy lines & their movies, with Superman being the only exception.

 

I actually remember several people laughing about Batman before it was released. It was rated 12 and over and quite a few people didn't understand why they had excluded the only people that would ever want to see it. Others commented on how shocked they were that an actor such as Jack Nicholson had reduced himself to making 'kiddy films'.

 

But regardless of how corny it is when we look back, the way it was handled surprised people, and they began to look at comics differently.

Lois & Clark came along and further changed perceptions, and by the time Blade came out, just ten years later, the fact it was a comic movie wasd not as much an issue as they were much more accepted in our society as a whole.

And by the time the first X-Men arrived, comic book movies went over almost exactly as they did in the states, they were respected and widely known franchises and big money spinners.

 

20 years ago people would have told you that comic movies are not on the same level as established institutions such as James Bond and never would be, yet they have surpassed them in a comparatively short amount of time.

 

If done right, this film could change perceptions in the exact same way.

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It's possible... I guess we'll all have to wait and see.

Ehh.. maybe to girlfriends or wives who don't understand the fixation, but I'd think that's more their BFs/hubbies that they're laughing at rather than movie itself.  Besides, I doubt unless they were fans themselves that they're seriously in the target audience to begin with.  Maybe as mothers to kids who are..

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Honestly I seriously doubt many people would be laughing at this movie. Spielberg's name and his studio Dreamworks are attached to it, plus some of the producers of X-Men, so why would anyone think this is anything but a potential blockbuster?

 

No one laughed when they brought back Spiderman, X-Men, and Batman, which are the obvious successes. But no one laughed we they brought back the ultimate failures like the Hulk and Daredevil (until after they saw those movies that is, and I even secretly liked both of those). This movie isn't going to be targeted at kids or even teenagers exactly. It is meant to appeal to the entire spectrum by being an entertaining action movie that everyone will like, otherwise it would make no money and if that were the case then the studios wouldn't even be bothering to make it in the first place.

 

I seriously doubt anyone will be laughing unless, unless they really mess up the movie, but not before then.

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Okay, here's the thing. Spider-Man and the Hulk and all of that are established franchises that have been around for like 40 years. They've spawned multiple TV shows etc. in the past; the general public is aware of them as "institutions". The Transformers is, to the general public, a toy line from the 80's with a cheesy cartoon. Sure they made Spider-Man toys and all that, but Spider-Man didn't start off as a toy line. It's not a toy line at heart. That makes a huge difference in how people perceive what the property "is". The Transformers has also only been around for 20 years, unlike all of those other properties. It's just not on the same level. And it won't ever be.

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I agree w/ most of what you said, but you still have to admit that Daredevil, Electra, League of Extraordinary Gents, The Punisher, etc were all films that didn't necessarily have a hard-core fan base anything remotely like X-Men or Spidey. That we can agree on I think (and also that most of them were poorly made/written). I think that when the general public hears/sees that a live action TF movie is coming out, many of them will remember the cartoons from the 80s first and foremost and will remember them fondly, and will not just point and laugh.

 

Everyone knows that G1 was a half-hour commercial, just like GI Joe and HeMan and basically all the cartoons from the 80s, that is not disputed. But I do think that the rxn from most people initially will be "ah cool, big ass transforming robots, I remember those things!!!" and then they will watch the hopefully kickass trailer and get excited for a good summer blockbuster. I mean, TF are a cool property and I think it will be received well.

 

My point is that I think most people will give the movie a chance to prove itself. If it sucks then it will get ripped, and rightly so, but if they do it right, I can see it really taking off (and no, not on the level of Spidey and X-Men, but significantly better than those movies I mentioned at the beginning of the post).

everyone, relax. people will watch the TF movie so long as there's plenty of bells and whistles to gawk at. the Star Wars prequals sucked in terms of writing but people still watched them for the special FX.

The second-tier superhero movies only got made because of the incredible and unexpected success of movies like Spider-Man or X-Men. It's typical Hollywood thinking -- go with something that's a "proven" success rather than risk something new. Same thing with Star Wars (even though those movies happened solely b/c of Lucas) -- those movies were hugely popular because they had the name "Star Wars" attached to them. End of story.

 

Anyway, Transformers has some similar hope because there've been a bunch of "remakes" of old cartoon properties etc.... but none of this means that the movie will be any good, of course. ;)

 

But we'll see.... it hasn't even been greenlit yet, anyway.

I don't think they can approach this with the mentality that just because it's a nostalgic revival of a cartoon from a few decades back it can be done in a slipshod, half-assed fashion. Studios sometimes mistakenly bank on nostalgia of older cartoons and comics and things from the '60s, '70s and '80s (which is why we got atrocities like Garfield, Inspector Gadget, and the Scooby Doo flicks...etc.). Face it, Transformers has the word "cheese" associated with it regardless of what series it is, save Beast Wars and stuff. So for them to make this a movie to be taken seriously -- and for it to not be seen as a 90 minute commercial for the movie toyline -- is a hard task if there ever was one. Besides, we're fortunate Transformers doesn't have QUITE the stigma attached to it that movies based on video games do (their reputation is so dismal that people DO laugh when a movie based on a top-selling software title comes out).

So for them to make this a movie to be taken seriously -- and for it to not be seen as a 90 minute commercial for the movie toyline -- is a hard task if there ever was one.

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Oh, I don't think that's anything we need to worry about. :tflaugh This isn't going to be TF:TM.

Ehh.. maybe to girlfriends or wives who don't understand the fixation, but I'd think that's more their BFs/hubbies that they're laughing at rather than movie itself.  Besides, I doubt unless they were fans themselves that they're seriously in the target audience to begin with.  Maybe as mothers to kids who are..

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:wtf

 

Who do you think is the target audience?

 

Look, if this movie was being made for the fan base, even the sort-of fan that remembers watching the shows when they were kids, then it would only appeal to one out of every thousand people.  And half of those would call it crap. 

 

Really, there is no way this is going to be a 'serious' movie.  The best you're going to get is entertaining. 

When have I suggested that the intention was for it to be a serious movie?

 

And if the Steven Spielberg clip saying, "I'm a FAN and a transformers geek who loved playing with these toys," or all the producers, director, writers at the outset repeatedly chanting, "We are the biggest FANS of Transformers," is supposed to give us a clue, I'd say the FANS probably rank somewhere in there??  Along with possibly kids, males who are just interested in 'stuff that's cool', and other ancillary market segments.  This is not to say because "by fans, for fans" is what they're excessively trying to hint at that that will be the end result, nor is it to say that the fans are going to be the sole exclusive audience to the exclusion of rest of the world.  It's clearly not how any previous similar movies that had record of any success were made (we'll discount for now that this Michael Bay), so why is everyone always so ready to go flying to the conclusion that this film is going to be a mindless commercial sellout?

 

So far through this entire thread of cynicism, there've only been arguments about how it will either be a sellout, a joke, or some combination of both.  And while those are certainly possibilities, (Hollywood and/or Michael Bay), I don't think it's quite realistic to suggest those are the only two options with others not even being likely possible.

 

Yes, it's typical of Hollywood (and business in general) to copy and repeat previous successes -- because it works.  But if that was the ONLY policy of hollywood, there would never be unexpected successes like Spider-Man in the first place, nor would they have sunk in the budget it received.  Sure, Transformers does not have as widespread a cultural presence as Spider-Man, but I think there's a subtle difference between conservatively estimating the range of potential interest in Transformers and just selling it short simply because you as fans feel the rest of the world wouldn't take it "seriously".  There are many other commercially and critically successful properties that aren't regarded as anymore serious or realistic yet have succeeded, likely due to cultural emotional attachment.  And while it's valid that Transformers has a smaller fanbase than say something like Spider-Man, Spider-Man's cultural fanbase is less than say that of Superman, yet Spider-Man is one of the top grossing films of all time whereas Superman doesn't come quite as close despite its sequels.  This is possibly because with Spider-Man's origin in the '60s, most of his fans are of the generations that currently have both disposable income and the greater inclination to go to the movies, while Superman has a more broadbase appeal across all generations with less sharp interest in the younger crowd.  And even then the picture is much more complex than just these factors.

 

Spider-Man and X-Men had long-standing themes within the cores of their stories that could be built to SOME level of seriousness, while Transformers has always been the much more generic epic good vs evil.  So I agree that the best we're likely to get is entertaining, but then I also think that's all it needs to be, at least for the masses.  However, I think in order for the masses to have give more than a glance at it in order for them to be roped in, they must be somewhat persuaded the fans find it at least moderately cool and not a letdown.

All right, let's break it down to avoid the inevitable migraines ...

 

When have I suggested that the intention was for it to be a serious movie?

 

Maybe not you specifically, but others in this very thread seem to feel that this movie will (or should) be deep, meaningful, and filled with other 'serious movie' stuff. 

 

It won't.

 

And if the Steven Spielberg clip saying, "I'm a FAN and a transformers geek who loved playing with these toys," or all the producers, director, writers at the outset repeatedly chanting, "We are the biggest FANS of Transformers," is supposed to give us a clue, I'd say the FANS probably rank somewhere in there??

 

Here's the thing : of course Spielberg, Bay, and all the other players are going to say they're big fans.  If they said "Hey, I never heard of this before, but I just signed up to make a movie out of it" would ANYBODY have any confidence in the chances of a decent movie?  I know I wouldn't. 

 

 

Along with possibly kids, males who are just interested in 'stuff that's cool', and other ancillary market segments.  This is not to say because "by fans, for fans" is what they're excessively trying to hint at that that will be the end result, nor is it to say that the fans are going to be the sole exclusive audience to the exclusion of rest of the world.  It's clearly not how any previous similar movies that had record of any success were made (we'll discount for now that this Michael Bay), so why is everyone always so ready to go flying to the conclusion that this film is going to be a mindless commercial sellout?

 

 

That section contradicts this :

Besides, I doubt unless they were fans themselves that they're seriously in the target audience to begin with. 

 

Anyway, to continue ...

 

So far through this entire thread of cynicism, there've only been arguments about how it will either be a sellout, a joke, or some combination of both.  And while those are certainly possibilities, (Hollywood and/or Michael Bay), I don't think it's quite realistic to suggest those are the only two options with others not even being likely possible.

 

I'm with LM on this.  Sellout is thrown around way too much for a property like this. 

 

Pay attention here, because I'm not going to say it again :

 

YOU CAN'T MAKE A SELLOUT FROM AN ALREADY COMMERCIAL PROPERTY

 

No TF series ever considered itself a high-minded 'artistic' project.  The main focus was selling toys.  The closest that any of the series got to art for art's sake was Beast Machines, and even then, it was about moving toys.

 

 

Yes, it's typical of Hollywood (and business in general) to copy and repeat previous successes -- because it works.  But if that was the ONLY policy of hollywood, there would never be unexpected successes like Spider-Man in the first place, nor would they have sunk in the budget it received.  Sure, Transformers does not have as widespread a cultural presence as Spider-Man, but I think there's a subtle difference between conservatively estimating the range of potential interest in Transformers and just selling it short simply because you as fans feel the rest of the world wouldn't take it "seriously".  There are many other commercially and critically successful properties that aren't regarded as anymore serious or realistic yet have succeeded, likely due to cultural emotional attachment.  And while it's valid that Transformers has a smaller fanbase than say something like Spider-Man, Spider-Man's cultural fanbase is less than say that of Superman, yet Spider-Man is one of the top grossing films of all time whereas Superman doesn't come quite as close despite its sequels.  This is possibly because with Spider-Man's origin in the '60s, most of his fans are of the generations that currently have both disposable income and the greater inclination to go to the movies, while Superman has a more broadbase appeal across all generations with less sharp interest in the younger crowd.  And even then the picture is much more complex than just these factors.

 

I can't even follow that. 

 

Spider-Man and X-Men had long-standing themes within the cores of their stories that could be built to SOME level of seriousness, while Transformers has always been the much more generic epic good vs evil.  So I agree that the best we're likely to get is entertaining, but then I also think that's all it needs to be, at least for the masses.  However, I think in order for the masses to have give more than a glance at it in order for them to be roped in, they must be somewhat persuaded the fans find it at least moderately cool and not a letdown.

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It's not a matter of what it needs to be.  All it really needs to be is some crappy CGI and some dork running around and getting caught by the bad CGI guys. 

 

 

I'm hoping for a movie that has a bunch of action, a coherent plot, and some humorous moments.  However, I'm enough of a realist to accept the fact that, given Hollywood's track record, two of those three may not happen.

When have I suggested that the intention was for it to be a serious movie?

 

And if the Steven Spielberg clip saying, "I'm a FAN and a transformers geek who loved playing with these toys," or all the producers, director, writers at the outset repeatedly chanting, "We are the biggest FANS of Transformers," is supposed to give us a clue, I'd say the FANS probably rank somewhere in there??  Along with possibly kids, males who are just interested in 'stuff that's cool', and other ancillary market segments.  This is not to say because "by fans, for fans" is what they're excessively trying to hint at that that will be the end result, nor is it to say that the fans are going to be the sole exclusive audience to the exclusion of rest of the world.  It's clearly not how any previous similar movies that had record of any success were made (we'll discount for now that this Michael Bay), so why is everyone always so ready to go flying to the conclusion that this film is going to be a mindless commercial sellout?

 

So far through this entire thread of cynicism, there've only been arguments about how it will either be a sellout, a joke, or some combination of both.  And while those are certainly possibilities, (Hollywood and/or Michael Bay), I don't think it's quite realistic to suggest those are the only two options with others not even being likely possible.

 

Yes, it's typical of Hollywood (and business in general) to copy and repeat previous successes -- because it works.  But if that was the ONLY policy of hollywood, there would never be unexpected successes like Spider-Man in the first place, nor would they have sunk in the budget it received.  Sure, Transformers does not have as widespread a cultural presence as Spider-Man, but I think there's a subtle difference between conservatively estimating the range of potential interest in Transformers and just selling it short simply because you as fans feel the rest of the world wouldn't take it "seriously".  There are many other commercially and critically successful properties that aren't regarded as anymore serious or realistic yet have succeeded, likely due to cultural emotional attachment.  And while it's valid that Transformers has a smaller fanbase than say something like Spider-Man, Spider-Man's cultural fanbase is less than say that of Superman, yet Spider-Man is one of the top grossing films of all time whereas Superman doesn't come quite as close despite its sequels.  This is possibly because with Spider-Man's origin in the '60s, most of his fans are of the generations that currently have both disposable income and the greater inclination to go to the movies, while Superman has a more broadbase appeal across all generations with less sharp interest in the younger crowd.  And even then the picture is much more complex than just these factors.

 

Spider-Man and X-Men had long-standing themes within the cores of their stories that could be built to SOME level of seriousness, while Transformers has always been the much more generic epic good vs evil.  So I agree that the best we're likely to get is entertaining, but then I also think that's all it needs to be, at least for the masses.  However, I think in order for the masses to have give more than a glance at it in order for them to be roped in, they must be somewhat persuaded the fans find it at least moderately cool and not a letdown.

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You know what? Screw this movie. I'll just see Fantastic Four 2 instead.