Beast-era Transformers are smaller and more fuel-efficient, so there are probably a lot more than there were during G1.

Yes, but there's still some retired Autobots, and several billion Transformers is still alot, more than a moon-sized "planet" can hold.

No, it isn't. You're probably just thinking in proportion to Earth's population and surface area, but Cybertron doesn't have oceans, deserts, or Antarctica taking up most of it's surface. What's more, the percentage of it's surface taken up by cities is apparently much greater than Earth, and Cybertron has no equivalent to rural areas at all.

And, even on Earth, there are billions of people living on the continent of Asia, which has a surface area just slightly more than the moon. (Mars has a surface area equal to the land surface area of Earth, so a Mars-sized Cybertron would have just as much living space as Earth does.)

 

But in addition to looking smaller, Cybertron was also in orbit around the Earth. (In low orbit, considering how bad the tidal effects were.) And Cybertron was knocked out of Earth orbit without dragging Earth with it. So it must be considerably smaller than Earth.

It's a cartoon, cartoons don't always follow the laws of physics.

That doesn't mean the possibility that doesn't follow the laws of physics should be considered the more likely one.

 

It said Cybertron was, not Unicron. (But Cybertron and Unicron are the same size.) And I've already explained why that information might not be reliable and how later comics seem to contradict it.

Please. The line about "evolving from natural occuring gears and pulleys" is easier to dismiss then 90% of the cartoon's flubs and inconsistancies such as the origins of the Constructicons or Unicron being a giant supernatural demon-like robot with psychic powers and the ability to reform any TF into any form he desires to a giant oversized Frankenstein monster created by a shaved monkey.

1. But it doesn't say Cybertron is Saturn-sized anywhere else except there. And the first few issues in general don't really fit that well; Spiderman's in issue three, but the Transformers comic isn't supposed to be in the Marvel continuity.

2. The cartoon doesn't contradict itself on Unicron. If Primacron could make Tornatron, why couldn't he make the movie's Unicron?

 

And Primus and Unicron can turn asteroids into Saturn-sized worlds because they're gods. Come on, we're talking about guys who jump to and from any continuity and universe, and have an internal universe within themselves. This is nothing. :)

If you're trying to imply that creating matter from nothing is easier than hopping between universes, I have to disagree.

But more to the point, I simply don't see any evidence, other than a single line that probably didn't have much thought put into it, that comic Cybertron is anywhere near as big as you think it is.

 

He wasn't in his current body when he did that. His original form (and Primus's too) wasn't material at all.

And he also destroyed other realities while in his physical form. Primus and the Transformers didn't win all the time.

We never actually saw a truly destroyed reality, so who knows how he did it? It probably involved some "god" powers that have nothing to do with his physical size.

 

Maybe he just doesn't eat large planets?

Except he does.

 

Kranix: "My planet was destroyed by Unicron."

Hot Rod: "Unicron? Who's Unicron?"

Kranix: "A planet that devours everything in it's path!"

 

Last time I checked just small asteroids does _NOT_ = "everything in it's path."

Depends of where his path is. He certainly couldn't devour a star. And a black hole would be more likely to devour him. If "everything" doesn't include them, maybe it doesn't include large planets either.

Anyway, Lithone was a very small planet. Just look at how big everything on the surface is compared to the planet itself. And while Unicron is much larger, he doesn't make it look like a little speck.

 

Unicron is a dark god bent on the absolute destruction of ALL life in every universe and reality. Thus, he'd design his bodies to be as big and as powerful as needed to accomplish this unholy mission.

Are you really sure about your assumptions that Saturn is big enough and that the moon isn't?

 

What about Cybertron's moons in the movie? They were sizable in comparison to Unicron, which means they'd be much bigger than Earth if Unicron was Saturn-sized. And yet, they didn't seem to be planet-sized at all.

And Cybertron had _atleast_ two of them, possibly even three or four. That's quite abit of gravity exerted on Cybertron.

Your point? If Cybertron is Saturn-sized, the gravity of earth-sized moons isn't so much in comparison. And if Cybertron is smaller, so are the moons.

My point was that the moons seem to be very small things (they don't look very big; there are only a few Transformers at each moonbase; the Autobots have bombs capable of obliterating them; and apparently, the moons were entirely remodeled in less than 20 years, but I might be wrong about that last part), so if Unicron being Saturn-sized implies they're huge, Unicron must be smaller than that.

And there were at least three moons, since one is still there in season 3.

If you watch the movie youl notice that Uni is MUCH larger than cybertrons moons, which arn't to much smaller than cybertron itself. My thoughts are that Unicron is bigger than Cybertron, which is approximately earth sized.

 

IMO nothing in G1 that pertains to size can be taken serioussly.

No, it isn't. You're probably just thinking in proportion to Earth's population and surface area, but Cybertron doesn't have oceans, deserts, or Antarctica taking up most of it's surface. What's more, the percentage of it's surface taken up by cities is apparently much greater than Earth, and Cybertron has no equivalent to rural areas at all.

And, even on Earth, there are billions of people living on the continent of Asia, which has a surface area just slightly more than the moon. (Mars has a surface area equal to the land surface area of Earth, so a Mars-sized Cybertron would have just as much living space as Earth does.)

But _how_ many billions of Transformers? Sure, many of those Transformers are about 6ft. tall, but there's also one's that fairly larger like Depth Charge for example. And not to mention all the retired Autobots. Many of these Transformers are a good deal bigger than us humans. That's going to take up quite a bit of the available space on the planet.

 

That doesn't mean the possibility that doesn't follow the laws of physics should be considered the more likely one.

True, but it was Earth with was being torn apart from the encounter, not Cybertron.

 

1. But it doesn't say Cybertron is Saturn-sized anywhere else except there. And the first few issues in general don't really fit that well; Spiderman's in issue three, but the Transformers comic isn't supposed to be in the Marvel continuity.

2. The cartoon doesn't contradict itself on Unicron. If Primacron could make Tornatron, why couldn't he make the movie's Unicron?

1. And the cartoon doesn't say Cybertron's asteroid/moon sized anywhere else, and as I've said before, the "accuracy" of G1's animation and scale is faulty at best.

2. Well, for starters Unicron existed before the dawn of time. But further then that, Unicron has telepathic powers, the ability to mentally torture his slaves, recreate anyone into any form he pleases, survive the destruction of his body, and recreate the bodies of ghosts out of nothing. Hard to believe a hairless monkey can do all that.

 

If you're trying to imply that creating matter from nothing is easier than hopping between universes, I have to disagree.

But more to the point, I simply don't see any evidence, other than a single line that probably didn't have much thought put into it, that comic Cybertron is anywhere near as big as you think it is.

Funny, Unicron just did that in the G1 episode "The Ghost in the Machine." :)

 

We never actually saw a truly destroyed reality, so who knows how he did it? It probably involved some "god" powers that have nothing to do with his physical size.

Actually, I believe the Armada comic book series sorta does.

 

Depends of where his path is. He certainly couldn't devour a star. And a black hole would be more likely to devour him. If "everything" doesn't include them, maybe it doesn't include large planets either.

Anyway, Lithone was a very small planet. Just look at how big everything on the surface is compared to the planet itself. And while Unicron is much larger, he doesn't make it look like a little speck.

Actually he could devour a star, he just pulls it apart like a black hole feasting on a star. And seeing how his true form _IS_ essentially a black hole, I doubt actual black holes would have any affect on him.

 

Are you really sure about your assumptions that Saturn is big enough and that the moon isn't?

Considering that the moon is significantly smaller than most planets and Saturn is noticeably bigger than most, quite sure.

 

Your point? If Cybertron is Saturn-sized, the gravity of earth-sized moons isn't so much in comparison. And if Cybertron is smaller, so are the moons.

My point was that the moons seem to be very small things (they don't look very big; there are only a few Transformers at each moonbase; the Autobots have bombs capable of obliterating them; and apparently, the moons were entirely remodeled in less than 20 years, but I might be wrong about that last part), so if Unicron being Saturn-sized implies they're huge, Unicron must be smaller than that.

And there were at least three moons, since one is still there in season 3.

I don't see you're point. We humans right now as I am typing this have enough explosives to obliterate our own planet.

But _how_ many billions of Transformers? Sure, many of those Transformers are about 6ft. tall, but there's also one's that fairly larger like Depth Charge for example. And not to mention all the retired Autobots. Many of these Transformers are a good deal bigger than us humans. That's going to take up quite a bit of the available space on the planet.

Three billion would be enough to say "billions". If you're trying to say it's over ten billion, I doubt it.

 

And yes, there is room for ten billion Transformers, many of which are larger than humans, on a surface area the size of the moon's, if most of that area is cities. If it's Mars-sized and there are only five billion of them, they wouldn't even seem crowded.

 

True, but it was Earth with was being torn apart from the encounter, not Cybertron.

Which is evidence of Cybertron's diameter being smaller. The larger it is, the more tidal forces would have affected it.

 

1. And the cartoon doesn't say Cybertron's asteroid/moon sized anywhere else, and as I've said before, the "accuracy" of G1's animation and scale is faulty at best.

But "The Ultimate Doom" isn't a particularly unreliable source like the first few comic issues, and isn't contradicted in other cartoon episodes.

 

2. Well, for starters Unicron existed before the dawn of time.

Not in the cartoon.

 

But further then that, Unicron has telepathic powers, the ability to mentally torture his slaves, recreate anyone into any form he pleases, survive the destruction of his body, and recreate the bodies of ghosts out of nothing. Hard to believe a hairless monkey can do all that.

But he did. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it contradicts anything.

 

If you're trying to imply that creating matter from nothing is easier than hopping between universes, I have to disagree.

But more to the point, I simply don't see any evidence, other than a single line that probably didn't have much thought put into it, that comic Cybertron is anywhere near as big as you think it is.

Funny, Unicron just did that in the G1 episode "The Ghost in the Machine." :)

Maybe he did, but he could have also formed the body out of air since he wasn't in a vacuum when he did it. More to the point, just because he can do it, doesn't automatically mean he did it to make himself bigger.

Even if he did, I still maintain that it is not easier than going to other universe (despite the fact that cartoon Unicron never displayed that ability). You seemed to be implying that it was.

 

Actually he could devour a star, he just pulls it apart like a black hole feasting on a star.

I thought about that, but I wasn't sure it should count.

 

And seeing how his true form _IS_  essentially a black hole, I doubt actual black holes would have any affect on him.

I think his body would be torn apart and sucked in. And his spirit would merge with the black hole. The question is, would he then be able to re-create his body out of mass from the singularity? If he couldn't, then you might as well say the black hole destroyed him.

 

Are you really sure about your assumptions that Saturn is big enough and that the moon isn't?

Considering that the moon is significantly smaller than most planets and Saturn is noticeably bigger than most, quite sure

But you just explained how Unicron could devour things much larger than himself, so are you sure moon-sized isn't big enough?

 

My point was that the moons seem to be very small things (they don't look very big; there are only a few Transformers at each moonbase; the Autobots have bombs capable of obliterating them; and apparently, the moons were entirely remodeled in less than 20 years, but I might be wrong about that last part), so if Unicron being Saturn-sized implies they're huge, Unicron must be smaller than that.

And there were at least three moons, since one is still there in season 3.

I don't see you're point. We humans right now as I am typing this have enough explosives to obliterate our own planet.

Do we really? We certainly have enough to kill all life (at least, all multicellular life besides cockroaches) on our planet, but I don't think we could destroy the planet itself.

In any case, I listed four reasons to think Cybertron's moons are small, and you only responded to one of them.

I've always considered Cybertron to be approximately the size of Earth.

 

- Neither in any of the television series (G-1, BW, RiD, Armada) or in any of the comics (G-1, Armada), is there any mention of the Transformers adapting to a different gravity when they arrive on Earth.

 

- In the G-1 cartoon we have a few episodes in which we see humans on cybertron, as well as in the last few G-1 comics. Since they can breath, there has to be an atmosphere and that points to a certain size: to big and the atmosphere would crush them, to small and it would have vanished a long time ago. (However, if I remember correctly, in Armada they had to wear suits -- but then I never liked Armada.)

 

- Furthermore, we see the humans walk around (on Cybertron) without any problems: not the big floating steps we know from the lunar landings, and not the crushing effect of a large gravity.

 

As for Unicron: in the G-1 comics when he's in robot-mode he's approximately just as big as Cybertron, making for a smaller alt-mode.

What about Cybertron's moons in the movie? They were sizable in comparison to Unicron, which means they'd be much bigger than Earth if Unicron was Saturn-sized. And yet, they didn't seem to be planet-sized at all.

He was titanic compared to these! Plus he was bigger than cyberton in robot mode and about the same size in planet mode. I always thought that cybertron was a giant planet, because of the sheer number of TF's on it. I always thought that cybertron was pretty far away from earth in the ultimate doom. If you think about how small the moon looks compared to earth if you see it from earth. The angle in that scene is from the other side of earth than cybertron is and is focused on earth. So I say that Cybertron is massive because you couldn't fit many 20 foot tall robots on something about the size of Australia.

Perhaps this way could get me a stranght answer. :tfmad

And as this thread already exists, minus the poll option... Go Go Gadget Merge! :nuts

Three billion would be enough to say "billions". If you're trying to say it's over ten billion, I doubt it.

 

And yes, there is room for ten billion Transformers, many of which are larger than humans, on a surface area the size of the moon's, if most of that area is cities. If it's Mars-sized and there are only five billion of them, they wouldn't even seem crowded.

And what evidence do you have for there not being ten billion Transformers or more on Cybertron? And furthermore, even if you are right, it still doesn't prove Cybertron is the size of our moon.

 

Which is evidence of Cybertron's diameter being smaller. The larger it is, the more tidal forces would have affected it.

Really? I thought it was because Cybertron's gravity was significantly stronger than Earth's gravity.

 

But "The Ultimate Doom" isn't a particularly unreliable source like the first few comic issues, and isn't contradicted in other cartoon episodes.

Given the choice, I'd take the word of Bob Budianski and Simon Furman over the G1 cartoon ANYDAY.

 

Not in the cartoon.

That's because "Call of the Primitives" is one of the worst TF related stories ever concieved.

 

But he did. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it contradicts anything.

See above.

 

Maybe he did, but he could have also formed the body out of air since he wasn't in a vacuum when he did it. More to the point, just because he can do it, doesn't automatically mean he did it to make himself bigger.

Even if he did, I still maintain that it is not easier than going to other universe (despite the fact that cartoon Unicron never displayed that ability). You seemed to be implying that it was.

And why _wouldn't_ he create his body to be large enough to be capable of eating planets?

 

And all incarnations of Unicron, from G1 to Armada to Universe are exactly one and the same. Just check out the Armada and Universe comics, aswell as the upcoming Transformers: The Ultimate Guide if you don't believe me.

 

I think his body would be torn apart and sucked in. And his spirit would merge with the black hole. The question is, would he then be able to re-create his body out of mass from the singularity? If he couldn't, then you might as well say the black hole destroyed him.

Except Unicron can't be killed or contained.

 

But you just explained how Unicron could devour things much larger than himself, so are you sure moon-sized isn't big enough?

Yes, he could devour objects bigger than he is, but it's much more easier and believable for him to eat most planets with his maw in planet mode.

 

Do we really? We certainly have enough to kill all life (at least, all multicellular life besides cockroaches) on our planet, but I don't think we could destroy the planet itself.

In any case, I listed four reasons to think Cybertron's moons are small, and you only responded to one of them.

What reasons? Because there were only a few Transformers on them in the Movie? There are only a few Autobots on the moons because they're on the verge of extinction. And how do you know they were built within the last 20 years? Sure, they weren't seen at all in the previous two seasons, but so what? Neither were Ultra Magnus or Kup and we know that they're significantly well over 20 years old. (And again, this is without pointing out the G1's inconsistant animation and writing.) And as for visible buildings on the moons and planets, chalk that one up on exzaggeration. 'Cause otherwise Cybertron and it's moons aswell as Lthone would all look like bland, undetailed metal balls floating in space. (And once again, there is the issue concerning size and scale in the G1 cartoon.)

Unicron's size could be explained in the same way Broadside and Astrotrain are made. WHen in vehgicle mode, they can "shrink" or "grow" to fit either the regualar dimensions of the actual vehicles or extend to carry loads and loads of transformers. Size conversion.

 

Also, look at Megatron (G1). He'd transform to a human-size P-38 or be weilded in a larger size by Starscream/Soundwave/etc. The same can go for Soundwave/Blaster and the cassettes.