one other thing. being pissed about "show accuracy" is silly. the toys came first. if your pissed about anything, be pissed that the shows characters arent toy accurate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Hastak Makes toy

2. Hastak gives the prototype to animators

3. Animators base animation models on said Proto

4. Hasbro screws around with the protoype makeing manny collectors mad.

 

P.S. Noone would hate G1 if we didn't have zealots claiming that G1 is superior to all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or, in the case of G1...

 

1. Takara makes toy lines

2. Toy lines flop miserably

3. Hasbro liscenses toy lines for unified release in the USA

4. Hasbro commissions Marvel Comics to make 4 part miniseries to help sell toys

5. Comic artists take "artistic liberties" with designs, out of desire for more "human-like" robot charachters

6. Comics sell like wildfire

7. Hasbro commissions cartoon series from Sunbow to capitalize on craze

8. Sunbow takes even more liberties with charachter designs

9. A generation of five year old kids scratch thier heads in confusion as to why thier Ratchet and Ironhide toys don't have heads

 

  :tflaugh

 

 

 

Which kind of brings up another point... sure, "Transformers" as a brand name is just over 20 years old, but many of the G1 molds we all know and love date back as far as 1974, making them over 30 years old, not 20.  And IMO, G1 Soundwave was pretty well articulated, if you ask me.  :thumb

What if someone *cough* Tomy *cough* decide "all the sudden" that they'll remake most of G1 line (the entire line would be too much), (I'm thinking toward RM now...), are we collecting the toy or the character, or collect toys of that character... What will they do to Fort. Max if they remade it?

What are we talking about again?

 

And about show accuracy, I believe that if the painted toy (not the prototype) made it to the market before the character appears on the show, then the situation might be reversed.

Where do you guys draw the line between giving your opinion and being a craptastic jerk?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't understand the question........

 

okay seriously:

 

I can be a pretty forceful guy; I'm argumentative and opinionated and all that. But I also try to be fair (emphasis on "try") and avoid subjectivity. I'll admit, I can get going on someone if I detect that their opinion is based on nostalgia or retcon, but that's because I get irritated when people just make up arguments based on what they feel and assume that they're somehow justified in that.

 

To be clear, I have no problem with someone liking what they like. But I do believe that a healthy dose of reality is beneficial to everyone. For example, let me tell you a few things about my favorite TF series, Beast Machines:

 

The characters differed greatly (and illogically at times) from their characterizations in Beast Wars.

They spent too much time arguing and bickering.

And running.

Primal spent too much time spouting spiritual platitudes in a pseudo-Zen voice.

The toys were a complete fiasco.

As a kids' show, it was poorly conceived and executed.

Mainframe went completely apesh*t with the character designs.

The Maximals looked a lot more "organic" than "techno".

 

That being said.... I loved it. And that's fine.

 

My point is, it's *okay* to accept the flaws in something AND still appreciate it at the same time. Your toy / show / whatever DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PERFECT FOR YOU TO LIKE IT. Too many people act as though that were the case. Which is why people think I'm a G1 hater, which I'm not. I just don't see why you can't say "it's cheesy" and "it's entertaining" in the same breath.

 

Anyway that's my thought.

It's amazing how grown adults can fight over an toy. I'm not from G1, I'm from the Generation Beast era. Because of that I tend to like beast TF more, but I do have favorites from the other lines. The G1 Seekers were cool, the Alternators are great. The 20th Ani Prime was basicly the best vehicle TF of all.

 

I dont know why some G1 fans are complaning. Durning BW, there were still the G1 comics, now Hasbro is basicly using the G1 names again. Then there's the new movie, so right now it should be an great time for G1 fans.

 

It all goes down to when you grew up, some fans sees Optimus as an flat nose truck, people like me sees him as an gorilla, and others sees him as an fire truck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i dont think g1 fans are mad bc g1 is dead. aside from reissues. i dont see any reason why they would be mad about that anyways. with energon and cybertron reinveting their old faves, what couldnt they like? oh yeah... theyre not mp.... :redface

 

Where do you guys draw the line between giving your opinion and being a craptastic jerk?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't understand the question........

 

okay seriously:

 

I can be a pretty forceful guy; I'm argumentative and opinionated and all that. But I also try to be fair (emphasis on "try") and avoid subjectivity. I'll admit, I can get going on someone if I detect that their opinion is based on nostalgia or retcon, but that's because I get irritated when people just make up arguments based on what they feel and assume that they're somehow justified in that.

 

To be clear, I have no problem with someone liking what they like. But I do believe that a healthy dose of reality is beneficial to everyone. For example, let me tell you a few things about my favorite TF series, Beast Machines:

 

The characters differed greatly (and illogically at times) from their characterizations in Beast Wars.

They spent too much time arguing and bickering.

And running.

Primal spent too much time spouting spiritual platitudes in a pseudo-Zen voice.

The toys were a complete fiasco.

As a kids' show, it was poorly conceived and executed.

Mainframe went completely apesh*t with the character designs.

The Maximals looked a lot more "organic" than "techno".

 

That being said.... I loved it. And that's fine.

 

My point is, it's *okay* to accept the flaws in something AND still appreciate it at the same time. Your toy / show / whatever DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PERFECT FOR YOU TO LIKE IT. Too many people act as though that were the case. Which is why people think I'm a G1 hater, which I'm not. I just don't see why you can't say "it's cheesy" and "it's entertaining" in the same breath.

 

Anyway that's my thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

see? thats exactly what i mean. i am a g1 lover because i grew up with it and because i loved the show and characters so much that i could care less if some of them couldnt move theyre legs. as long as they still transformed into what they were supposed to. and i understand mh's greif. how many times do people tell you how much they hated bm? uhhh... every day isnt it? it seems so. so of coarse he gets forceful in his defense of why he likes bm. i like bm as much as him and i get just as annoyed when theres 15 posts in a 20 post thread were the majority tells him why he shouldnt like bm. its no wonder he gets that way. i would but he beats me to it. if its bm... mh's on top of it. :tftongue

To be clear, I have no problem with someone liking what they like. But I do believe that a healthy dose of reality is beneficial to everyone. For example, let me tell you a few things about my favorite TF series, Beast Machines:

 

The characters differed greatly (and illogically at times) from their characterizations in Beast Wars.

They spent too much time arguing and bickering.

And running.

Primal spent too much time spouting spiritual platitudes in a pseudo-Zen voice.

The toys were a complete fiasco.

As a kids' show, it was poorly conceived and executed.

Mainframe went completely apesh*t with the character designs.

The Maximals looked a lot more "organic" than "techno".

 

That being said.... I loved it. And that's fine.

 

My point is, it's *okay* to accept the flaws in something AND still appreciate it at the same time. Your toy / show / whatever DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PERFECT FOR YOU TO LIKE IT. Too many people act as though that were the case. Which is why people think I'm a G1 hater, which I'm not. I just don't see why you can't say "it's cheesy" and "it's entertaining" in the same breath.

 

Anyway that's my thought.

 

This is what I was talking about earlier. What you see as flaws, others might not. Passing off your opinion as a "dose of reality" annoys people like myself.

No one uses the term, "THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY", enough. But hey! That's just my opinion. :P Seriously. Stop broadcasting your opinion as fact... Show accuracy is a state of mind. STFU N00B!

To be clear, I have no problem with someone liking what they like. But I do believe that a healthy dose of reality is beneficial to everyone. For example, let me tell you a few things about my favorite TF series, Beast Machines:

 

The characters differed greatly (and illogically at times) from their characterizations in Beast Wars.

They spent too much time arguing and bickering.

And running.

Primal spent too much time spouting spiritual platitudes in a pseudo-Zen voice.

The toys were a complete fiasco.

As a kids' show, it was poorly conceived and executed.

Mainframe went completely apesh*t with the character designs.

The Maximals looked a lot more "organic" than "techno".

 

That being said.... I loved it. And that's fine.

 

My point is, it's *okay* to accept the flaws in something AND still appreciate it at the same time. Your toy / show / whatever DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PERFECT FOR YOU TO LIKE IT. Too many people act as though that were the case. Which is why people think I'm a G1 hater, which I'm not. I just don't see why you can't say "it's cheesy" and "it's entertaining" in the same breath.

 

Anyway that's my thought.

 

This is what I was talking about earlier. What you see as flaws, others might not. Passing off your opinion as a "dose of reality" annoys people like myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I ever try to do is step back and look at things from a non-fan's perspective. That's what I mean when I talk about "reality". I think the problem with fans is that they become too insular, so involved in their hobby that they become unable to see it from a different perspective.

 

That being said, I understand that there are subjective differences of opinion that people might have about TFs. Some people just happen to like certain things more than others. Which is fine. For example, some people like beastformers; others hate them. I loved Beast Machines b/c it was artsy and dark and thoughtful; others hate it because it's preachy and moody and new-agey. And so on. That's all fine. But it's not what I'm talking about.

 

What I'm talking about is just looking at things objectively. EVERYTHING has flaws. And the only thing that irritates me is when people are like "NO THAT'S NOT TRUE" when they have no real reason for believing that... other than the fact that they *want* to believe it. If someone would just say "hey I know that this is lame in real life, but I think it's cool anyway", I would totally respect that. I collect Transformers with "MEGATRON RULES!" stickers on them, for crying out loud.

 

All I ask is that you keep one foot in the real world. It makes everything much more enjoyable.

All I ever try to do is step back and look at things from a non-fan's perspective. That's what I mean when I talk about "reality". I think the problem with fans is that they become too insular, so involved in their hobby that they become unable to see it from a different perspective.

 

That being said, I understand that there are subjective differences of opinion that people might have about TFs. Some people just happen to like certain things more than others. Which is fine. For example, some people like beastformers; others hate them. I loved Beast Machines b/c it was artsy and dark and thoughtful; others hate it because it's preachy and moody and new-agey. And so on. That's all fine. But it's not what I'm talking about.

 

What I'm talking about is just looking at things objectively. EVERYTHING has flaws. And the only thing that irritates me is when people are like "NO THAT'S NOT TRUE" when they have no real reason for believing that... other than the fact that they *want* to believe it. If someone would just say "hey I know that this is lame in real life, but I think it's cool anyway", I would totally respect that. I collect Transformers with "MEGATRON RULES!" stickers on them, for crying out loud.

 

All I ask is that you keep one foot in the real world. It makes everything much more enjoyable.

 

I see where you're coming from now, and I agree. Pointing out and debating about the good and bad points of something is fine by me. I don't have problems with how opinions are expressed most of the time. It's just when someone comes along and says something like "Let's face it, Cybertron just isn't a good show", like I'm under some sort of delusion for liking it, that's when I have a problem.

I see where you're coming from now, and I agree. Pointing out and debating about the good and bad points of something is fine by me. I don't have problems with how opinions are expressed most of the time. It's just when someone comes along and says something like "Let's face it, Cybertron just isn't a good show", like I'm under some sort of delusion for liking it, that's when I have a problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well here's the thing though...... both of these statements can be true:

 

1. Cybertron is not a good show

 

2. You like Cybertron

 

Of course you'd have to define "good", which takes you quickly into the realm of subjectivity. But I daresay that most television critics (and I mean TV critics who look at children's programming) would dismiss "Transformers: Cybertron" as a shallow, derivative and slightly obnoxious toy commercial. As indeed they would for most Transformers shows. (I fear that Beast Wars would be the sole exception, as it is the only TF series ever to win an Emmy. And indeed it seems to be the most consistently top-rated show among the TF fandom.)

 

However, that by no means nullifies your enjoyment of the show, or the validity of your opinion. After all, how many movies do we watch and love that have been savaged by critics, or even the general filmgoing audience? It's okay to accept this reality. It's a sign of defensiveness and insecurity to try to shut out that reality.

 

That's all I'm saying.

If I can pitch in here - I agree with all thats been said - as always LMH is exceptionally good at putting up intellectual and analytical arguments/points.

 

What we all have to realize is that this Hobby, this fandom is NOT based on an Analytical experience.  My First experience with G1 as a 7 Year old is going to be infintely more intense and emotional than the cool colected 13 year old going "Hey these things are neat"

and i am not dissing LMH as Fan at all.

 

But what i am saying is - the emotional charge that fans share with each other - the excstatic highs and the vicious lows - are based on an almost Primal and very visceral emotional response to this "fantasy" that we loosely agree to share with each other.

 

LMH is right - we have to remember to take one foot out of the Fantasy once in a while - but lets not forget that we are all agreeing to participate in a group fantasy/hallucination if you will... and lets remember that we are agreeing to this because we ENJOY that state of group insanity....

or dont we....

 

Hunter