...

Got-chya...

sort of...

Deathmarch and Optimal... you make alot of sense, and that article is fairly clear too. I was under the impression Diaclones relationship to Takara was a bit different... thinking perhaps it is like how it is with work for me here (and now)

 

... but I still don't get why the first BRAND NEW molds brought in specifically for Transformers where so, well... off the wall. I mean, if Takara owned those companies and they where doing great... what happened?

 

And does Hasbro/Takara still own Diaclone and all those mixed lines?

Diaclone was a brand, like "Power Rangers" or "Xevoz". Takara created and owned those brands. So don't talk about Diaclone as if it's a toy company or I will pull my hair out. :P

 

Hasbro / Takara / whomever decided to go for a new look because of TF:TM. You know, "keep the line fresh," "shake it up," etc.

Not trying to be a jackass bout it, so please don't take it as such. I'm just trying to fill you in.

And no, you're not being a jackass at all... you seem to know something I don't but you're unfortunately not reaching me...

 

If you can, type a bit more understandable maybe, and of course lemme know where you get your facts from (like what year Hasbro aquired Takara or if Microman was under Takara banner then but isn't now, stuff like that)

 

I've seen ALOT of posters come in an spout stuff off as fact and the written word and be proved wrong 'cause they just believe what they hear. No, I am not doubting you AT ALL... but I'm not a big believer of "word of mouth" when it comes to transformers without a source is all.

I think the problem here is that you believe Diaclone and Micromen/Microchange are companies. They aren't. They're product lines.

 

Like Transformers and GI Joe are product lines owned by Hasbro, Diaclone and Microchange were product lines RUN BY Takara in the 1970s and early 80s. The molds always belonged to Takara with the exceptions of Jetfire, the Deluxe (non show Insecticons (all Bandai), Roadbuster, Whirl (Forget who made these), Shockwave (Might be Toybox. Not sure), Omega Supreme and Sky Lynx (both Toybox).

 

Everything else-- came either from Diaclone-- Optimus Prime, Ultra Magnus, the Autobot cars, the Decepticon jets, Blitzwing, the Dinobots, the Insecticons Devestator... or from Microchange: Megatron, Soundwave and his tapes, Reflector, Perceptor, the minibots (Bumblebee, Powerglide, Cosmos, et all). Browning was another Gun Robo (a .45 cal Browning pistol) from the same subline of Microchange as Megatron (Gun Robo Walther P.38 U.N.C.L.E.). There's also one that's a revolver (I think it might be a Colt Single Action, but I'm not sure offhand). Basic rule of thumb: If it has a cockpit or place to put a pilot, it's a Diaclone. If it's a real world item like a gun or a camera, it's Microchange, though the later Diaclone toys phased out the cockpit idea. It can be assumed that some of the later molds-- the later Tripplechangers (especially Astrotrain), the Scramble City gestaults and Metroplex are diaclone prototypes that weren't released in that line from evidence that's come out over the years. In all, the license to produce all the initial figures was aquired at some point in either 1984 or maybe late 1983, and the repackaged toys were released under the Transformers brand in the fall of '84.

 

The first toys designed AS transformers aside from minor retooling (Thrust/Dirge/Ramjet, the second series Minibots) or redecos not seen in Diaclone (Red alert, Skywarp, etc) were the movie characters. With the exclusion of Ultra Magnus (and MAYBE Springer), who is a repaint of Diaclone Powered Convoy, the movie cast was designed and drawn by Hasbro designers before the toys were even cast. In fact, the reason some of the movie figures are so "off" from the onscreen versions is because they were designed based on pre-production sketeches from the movie (Grey Galvatron, they reason Cyclonus is so wonky). 1986 was the year that HasTak began the co-design system they still use today where the general concept is created by Hasbro and the engineering is done by Takara. That's not true for every figure or for every line (Car Robots and BW Neo/II are almost entirely Takara efforts), but the general principle was established with the Movie era toys. Takara's in no way responsible for the death of G1-- it in fact remained fairly popular for several years after in Japan (Masterforce, Victory, etc).

 

What killed G1 in the states was a combination of things: The Death of popular characters, especially Optimus Prime, failure to really establish any NEW characters to replace them that the fanbase got attached to, a downward curve in quality.. but the most important reason was the nature of the market. Boy toy brands are inherently fads. They have a life cycle of about 2 years before they run out of steam. This is why the Power Rangers model of relaunching the line every 18 months with new ideas is so insanely sucessful, and why most modern toylines (Transformers included with the RiD/Armada/Energon/Cybertron cycle) rush to copy it.

Not trying to be a jackass bout it, so please don't take it as such. I'm just trying to fill you in.

And no, you're not being a jackass at all... you seem to know something I don't but you're unfortunately not reaching me...

 

If you can, type a bit more understandable maybe, and of course lemme know where you get your facts from (like what year Hasbro aquired Takara or if Microman was under Takara banner then but isn't now, stuff like that)

 

I've seen ALOT of posters come in an spout stuff off as fact and the written word and be proved wrong 'cause they just believe what they hear. No, I am not doubting you AT ALL... but I'm not a big believer of "word of mouth" when it comes to transformers without a source is all.

I think the problem here is that you believe Diaclone and Micromen/Microchange are companies. They aren't. They're product lines.

 

Like Transformers and GI Joe are product lines owned by Hasbro, Diaclone and Microchange were product lines RUN BY Takara in the 1970s and early 80s. The molds always belonged to Takara with the exceptions of Jetfire, the Deluxe (non show Insecticons (all Bandai), Roadbuster, Whirl (Forget who made these), Shockwave (Might be Toybox. Not sure), Omega Supreme and Sky Lynx (both Toybox).

 

Everything else-- came either from Diaclone-- Optimus Prime, Ultra Magnus, the Autobot cars, the Decepticon jets, Blitzwing, the Dinobots, the Insecticons Devestator... or from Microchange: Megatron, Soundwave and his tapes, Reflector, Perceptor, the minibots (Bumblebee, Powerglide, Cosmos, et all). Browning was another Gun Robo (a .45 cal Browning pistol) from the same subline of Microchange as Megatron (Gun Robo Walther P.38 U.N.C.L.E.). There's also one that's a revolver (I think it might be a Colt Single Action, but I'm not sure offhand). Basic rule of thumb: If it has a cockpit or place to put a pilot, it's a Diaclone. If it's a real world item like a gun or a camera, it's Microchange, though the later Diaclone toys phased out the cockpit idea. It can be assumed that some of the later molds-- the later Tripplechangers (especially Astrotrain), the Scramble City gestaults and Metroplex are diaclone prototypes that weren't released in that line from evidence that's come out over the years. In all, the license to produce all the initial figures was aquired at some point in either 1984 or maybe late 1983, and the repackaged toys were released under the Transformers brand in the fall of '84.

 

The first toys designed AS transformers aside from minor retooling (Thrust/Dirge/Ramjet, the second series Minibots) or redecos not seen in Diaclone (Red alert, Skywarp, etc) were the movie characters. With the exclusion of Ultra Magnus (and MAYBE Springer), who is a repaint of Diaclone Powered Convoy, the movie cast was designed and drawn by Hasbro designers before the toys were even cast. In fact, the reason some of the movie figures are so "off" from the onscreen versions is because they were designed based on pre-production sketeches from the movie (Grey Galvatron, they reason Cyclonus is so wonky). 1986 was the year that HasTak began the co-design system they still use today where the general concept is created by Hasbro and the engineering is done by Takara. That's not true for every figure or for every line (Car Robots and BW Neo/II are almost entirely Takara efforts), but the general principle was established with the Movie era toys. Takara's in no way responsible for the death of G1-- it in fact remained fairly popular for several years after in Japan (Masterforce, Victory, etc).

 

What killed G1 in the states was a combination of things: The Death of popular characters, especially Optimus Prime, failure to really establish any NEW characters to replace them that the fanbase got attached to, a downward curve in quality.. but the most important reason was the nature of the market. Boy toy brands are inherently fads. They have a life cycle of about 2 years before they run out of steam. This is why the Power Rangers model of relaunching the line every 18 months with new ideas is so insanely sucessful, and why most modern toylines (Transformers included with the RiD/Armada/Energon/Cybertron cycle) rush to copy it.

Best post ever. I'm done. :D

Hop on the bus, cuz GS just took us to school...

Hasbro thought they could "change" the TFs and that we were all okay with that. Many people weren't. So then they went with the gimmicks to try and "win back" the lost audience and that didn't work, so then they tried to modify the things to match the "current" trend in toys, which were the Micromasters, but that didn't work either. Then came the Action Masters and it was all over. G2 worked good at first with the recolored G1 molds, but as soon as they started getting away from that stuff, then it bottomed out again.

 

The more I look at it, the more I think that this whole 20 year saga of TF was designed as a 2 year toy run at best and then dropped for the next concept. There's just been so many people who liked the idea of basically getting two toys for one with a TF that they've kept it going for so long now.

 

I don't think Takara had anything really to do with it, I think the largest issue was with corporate arrogance on Hasbro's part. That and the fact that they didn't have 20 years worth of history and accumulated data to go on when designing these toys. It was a new concept for its time and they wanted to milk it for all it was worth and they thought they could change the way the TF looked into futuristic things and gimmicks and such but that failed because we all liked our cars and planes in disguise.

 

Chris

 

ps - great post, Greatshot. We share some of the same ideas.

Not trying to be a jackass bout it, so please don't take it as such. I'm just trying to fill you in.

And no, you're not being a jackass at all... you seem to know something I don't but you're unfortunately not reaching me...

 

If you can, type a bit more understandable maybe, and of course lemme know where you get your facts from (like what year Hasbro aquired Takara or if Microman was under Takara banner then but isn't now, stuff like that)

 

I've seen ALOT of posters come in an spout stuff off as fact and the written word and be proved wrong 'cause they just believe what they hear. No, I am not doubting you AT ALL... but I'm not a big believer of "word of mouth" when it comes to transformers without a source is all.

I think the problem here is that you believe Diaclone and Micromen/Microchange are companies. They aren't. They're product lines.

 

Like Transformers and GI Joe are product lines owned by Hasbro, Diaclone and Microchange were product lines RUN BY Takara in the 1970s and early 80s. The molds always belonged to Takara with the exceptions of Jetfire, the Deluxe (non show Insecticons (all Bandai), Roadbuster, Whirl (Forget who made these), Shockwave (Might be Toybox. Not sure), Omega Supreme and Sky Lynx (both Toybox).

 

Everything else-- came either from Diaclone-- Optimus Prime, Ultra Magnus, the Autobot cars, the Decepticon jets, Blitzwing, the Dinobots, the Insecticons Devestator... or from Microchange: Megatron, Soundwave and his tapes, Reflector, Perceptor, the minibots (Bumblebee, Powerglide, Cosmos, et all). Browning was another Gun Robo (a .45 cal Browning pistol) from the same subline of Microchange as Megatron (Gun Robo Walther P.38 U.N.C.L.E.). There's also one that's a revolver (I think it might be a Colt Single Action, but I'm not sure offhand). Basic rule of thumb: If it has a cockpit or place to put a pilot, it's a Diaclone. If it's a real world item like a gun or a camera, it's Microchange, though the later Diaclone toys phased out the cockpit idea. It can be assumed that some of the later molds-- the later Tripplechangers (especially Astrotrain), the Scramble City gestaults and Metroplex are diaclone prototypes that weren't released in that line from evidence that's come out over the years. In all, the license to produce all the initial figures was aquired at some point in either 1984 or maybe late 1983, and the repackaged toys were released under the Transformers brand in the fall of '84.

 

The first toys designed AS transformers aside from minor retooling (Thrust/Dirge/Ramjet, the second series Minibots) or redecos not seen in Diaclone (Red alert, Skywarp, etc) were the movie characters. With the exclusion of Ultra Magnus (and MAYBE Springer), who is a repaint of Diaclone Powered Convoy, the movie cast was designed and drawn by Hasbro designers before the toys were even cast. In fact, the reason some of the movie figures are so "off" from the onscreen versions is because they were designed based on pre-production sketeches from the movie (Grey Galvatron, they reason Cyclonus is so wonky). 1986 was the year that HasTak began the co-design system they still use today where the general concept is created by Hasbro and the engineering is done by Takara. That's not true for every figure or for every line (Car Robots and BW Neo/II are almost entirely Takara efforts), but the general principle was established with the Movie era toys. Takara's in no way responsible for the death of G1-- it in fact remained fairly popular for several years after in Japan (Masterforce, Victory, etc).

 

What killed G1 in the states was a combination of things: The Death of popular characters, especially Optimus Prime, failure to really establish any NEW characters to replace them that the fanbase got attached to, a downward curve in quality.. but the most important reason was the nature of the market. Boy toy brands are inherently fads. They have a life cycle of about 2 years before they run out of steam. This is why the Power Rangers model of relaunching the line every 18 months with new ideas is so insanely sucessful, and why most modern toylines (Transformers included with the RiD/Armada/Energon/Cybertron cycle) rush to copy it.

You totally rock. As an added note (please kill me if it was menntioned in here previously), that there was another company in the mix: Takatoku, who produced the molds for Whirl and Roadbuster.

 

http://www.toyboxdx.com/data/dorvack/images/55gazette.jpg

http://www.toyboxdx.com/data/dorvack/images/55calibur.jpg

Now do you get it SG...Diaclone, Micro-Change, and Microman were TOYLINES...not Companies.

 

That's what I was trying to say this whole time...and Now I'm done (following OM's path).

You totally rock. As an added note (please kill me if it was menntioned in here previously), that there was another company in the mix: Takatoku, who produced the molds for Whirl and Roadbuster.

 

http://www.toyboxdx.com/data/dorvack/images/55gazette.jpg

http://www.toyboxdx.com/data/dorvack/images/55calibur.jpg

Takatoku! That's it. I knew it began with a T... couldn't for the life of me remember what it was. :nuts

wait - G1 died?