Besides, the best way for a race/species to evolve is through breeding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, no it isn’t.

 

Breeding is a very inefficient way to evolve. Evolution, after all, is nothing more than the survival of those individuals who are best adapted to a changing environment; and really is a try and fail method. This usually coincides with the dying out of all those who are unfit to live in the new environment and the survival of a few individuals who form the foundation for the adapted species.

 

If rapid change/evolution is required, then breeding is way too slow. And indeed the history of life on earth is rife with examples of successful species who were unable to adapt sufficiently quick to adapt to changes.

 

Suppose mankind starts living in space with fast moving spaceships and weightlessness. Our bodies can’t cope with that. Evolution will in the end get it right, but it will take a VERY long time (and many squished humans). Genetic manipulation (and immediate physical alterations) will get it right almost immediately. Fast and effective.

 

To clarify with TF’s:

 

War breaks out on Cybertron. The Decepticons are built for war (and indeed, in the comics they adapted their bodies to better fight), while the Autobots are not. If breeding was the path of change/evolution, than almost all Autobots would’ve died while those few who had a natural adaption to warfare would’ve survived, needed to breed, the offspring needed to mature and only after all that, could the Autobots fight back against the Decepticons. They would’ve all been slaughtered by then.

 

However, they’re machines. They built new TF’s who are more capable of combat and even adapt their own bodies (e.g. in the Marvel comics this has happened, and more recently in DW MTMTE it was stated that Roadbuster adapted himself to be better able to fight). Micromasters are, according to the comic (both Marvel & DW) an adaptation to the energon depleted times. No waiting for breeding, but building new bodies to suit the new needs.

 

The same also happened with the Maximals. The Maximal upgrade program (as mentioned by Xbob) from the Universe comics, the inclusion of organic replication after they learned there are non-mechanical life forms. When the Maximals/Predacons arrive on pre-historic earth, they don’t start breeding to get organic altmode and maybe after a long time we’ll be able to get outside, no they adapt their bodies.

 

 

So it's more efficient... that don't make it better. I can't see humans being mass-produced in Martian or Jovian factories in 50,000 years.

 

Who knows what the future will bring. I, however, can see a future where the human genome is adapted to better suit the needs of the time. (A nice example of this is Peter F. Hamilton's Nightdawn trilogy. Read it: it's only 4000 pages)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Genetic manipulation will fail more than natural evolution will. Evolution makes creatures adapt to their invironment in every way... until humans OR TFs becoms intelligent enough to know how their own bodies work and grow, they can't reproduce the results of evolution.

 

Oh, and why're you using an example of TFs fighting battles of all things? No species evolve to suit wars.

 

And you're acting like human society without natural reproduction is a good thing... that's the most horrible thing I've heard on this board...

Rawhide is right.

 

So it's more efficient... that don't make it better.

Umm... yes it does! ;)

 

Remember that the entire purpose of sexual reproduction is to increase the genetic variation within a species in order to improve its chances of survival. As Rawhide said, natural selection works by a large proportion of a species being wiped out, but with a select number exhibiting features that allow them to survive where others fallen. For example, the famous story of the London moths during the Industrial Revolution -- the population of white moths were decimated by predators when the Industrial Revolution began, as London was covered in black dirt from factories etc., however the minority of black moths were born with natural camouflage, and they survived and passed their black genes down to successive generations of offspring - thus the moths evolved from white to black.

 

Super robots like Transformers don't do this. If conditions change, they will simply alter their own body. There's just no need for Transformers to reproduce sexually. As machines, they can evolve much faster and far more efficiently by simply reconstructing themselves.

 

Sexual reproduction and natural selection is not only more inefficient, but a random, awkward and incredibly slow form of evolution -- evolution on this planet takes millions and millions of years, with species changing very slowly over an incredibly long period of time... and it doesn't always work out. Some species are unable to adapt to a changed environment and thus face extinction... although sexual reproduction gives you a better chance of surviving environmental change, it's certainly no guarantee against extinction.

 

Transformer evolution on the other hand is faster and far more precise. It's an artificial form of evolution -- when their environment changes, they engineer changes which they implement upon themselves immediately. They're not going to wait for the new upgrades to kick in with their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren.

 

The initial Transformers who came to Earth aboard the Ark originally had Cybertronian alt modes. They were reconstructed with Earthen modes to adapt to their new surroundings.

The beast Wars TFs would have also had Cybertronian alt modes and only acquired beast modes to adapt to pre-historic Earth, planet Gaea et al. - it's true that we never saw them transform in their pre-Cybertron forms, but their robot modes had no beast kibble on them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TFs themselves aren't the sparks. Their bodies are a part of them almost just as much. Why else would they look the same relatively throughout each of their bodies?(Beast wars is a great example of this)

 

And the concept of still thinking that TFs are artificial is even more mind-boggling... do you even know what artificial means? The definition clearly don't describe TFs at all...

 

By your logic, humans made in laboratories wouldn't count as artificial, but natural :roll

 

 

 

 

BTW... don't ANYONE agree with me? Or is it that everyone's gonna be aginst me like EVERY OTHER PowerglideING MESSAGE BOARD NO MATTER WHAT'S BEING DISCUSSED?

BTW... don't ANYONE agree with me? Or is it that everyone's gonna be aginst me like EVERY OTHER PowerglideING MESSAGE BOARD NO MATTER WHAT'S BEING DISCUSSED?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i guess so  :roll

Besides, the best way for a race/species to evolve is through breeding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, no it isn’t.

 

Breeding is a very inefficient way to evolve. Evolution, after all, is nothing more than the survival of those individuals who are best adapted to a changing environment; and really is a try and fail method. This usually coincides with the dying out of all those who are unfit to live in the new environment and the survival of a few individuals who form the foundation for the adapted species.

 

If rapid change/evolution is required, then breeding is way too slow. And indeed the history of life on earth is rife with examples of successful species who were unable to adapt sufficiently quick to adapt to changes.

 

Suppose mankind starts living in space with fast moving spaceships and weightlessness. Our bodies can’t cope with that. Evolution will in the end get it right, but it will take a VERY long time (and many squished humans). Genetic manipulation (and immediate physical alterations) will get it right almost immediately. Fast and effective.

 

To clarify with TF’s:

 

War breaks out on Cybertron. The Decepticons are built for war (and indeed, in the comics they adapted their bodies to better fight), while the Autobots are not. If breeding was the path of change/evolution, than almost all Autobots would’ve died while those few who had a natural adaption to warfare would’ve survived, needed to breed, the offspring needed to mature and only after all that, could the Autobots fight back against the Decepticons. They would’ve all been slaughtered by then.

 

However, they’re machines. They built new TF’s who are more capable of combat and even adapt their own bodies (e.g. in the Marvel comics this has happened, and more recently in DW MTMTE it was stated that Roadbuster adapted himself to be better able to fight). Micromasters are, according to the comic (both Marvel & DW) an adaptation to the energon depleted times. No waiting for breeding, but building new bodies to suit the new needs.

 

The same also happened with the Maximals. The Maximal upgrade program (as mentioned by Xbob) from the Universe comics, the inclusion of organic replication after they learned there are non-mechanical life forms. When the Maximals/Predacons arrive on pre-historic earth, they don’t start breeding to get organic altmode and maybe after a long time we’ll be able to get outside, no they adapt their bodies.

 

 

So it's more efficient... that don't make it better. I can't see humans being mass-produced in Martian or Jovian factories in 50,000 years.

 

Who knows what the future will bring. I, however, can see a future where the human genome is adapted to better suit the needs of the time. (A nice example of this is Peter F. Hamilton's Nightdawn trilogy. Read it: it's only 4000 pages)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Genetic manipulation will fail more than natural evolution will. Evolution makes creatures adapt to their invironment in every way... until humans OR TFs becoms intelligent enough to know how their own bodies work and grow, they can't reproduce the results of evolution.

 

No, evolution is directly very strongly to solving one problem at the time. Again: evolution is no more than the survival of those individuals who are best adapted to deal with a changing situation. There’s only the response to the immediate threat to the species. No more! Genetic manipulation can solve several problems at once.

 

Also, a small example. Say a certain change in the environment can be solved by possessing the genetic code of the allele referred to as “a�, while most individuals have “A�. (it’s often found that the dominant allele is not the one to deal with change and evolution, because most individuals have that one.) The chances of offspring getting his genetic make up are slim.

 

Situation-1: parent 1 has AA and parent 2 has Aa:=> none of the offspring will survive since aa is needed to make it possible to survive in a changing environment.

 

Situation-2: parent 1 has Aa and parent 2 has Aa:=> only 25 percent will survive. Offspring will consist of AA (25%), Aa (50%) and aa (25%

 

Of course, with a situation in which either or both parents have aa, the changes off ideal offspring are best.

 

And this is just with one allele. Most often to get a specific genetic characteristic to work, is a matter of several different types of allele to work together. If it’s just two markers (say a and b) then the chances to get an aabb offspring in case of situation 2 is only 1/16-th.

 

Genetic manipulation can be far more specific: isolating the needed genes and causing them to be incorporated in each and every offspring.

 

 

Oh, and why're you using an example of TFs fighting battles of all things? No species evolve to suit wars.

 

because TF’s are at war (that’s what the whole series about) and using the example of what is, is always more correct than using “what if’s� Furthermore, I could use references from the series. I could say the needed to adapt to living in a musical, but we’ve never seen that in TF (thank god for small favors :P). War we have seen and from the war situation there are clear examples to prove the point I made.

 

Also, on Earth we’re not familiar with a situation where a species evolved to suit wars. As are we not familiar with mechanical life. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist elsewhere. (Yes, you can use this argument to suggest mechanical sexual reproduction.) Besides, again, in the comics it is made clear that the TF’s did adapt themselves to fight a war: first the deceps, then the autobots.

 

And you're acting like human society without natural reproduction is a good thing... that's the most horrible thing I've heard on this board...

 

Never said that. Said that Genetic manipulation would make a far more effective adaptation to a (changing) situation than evolution.

 

Truth be told, I don’t want children but should through circumstances I ever get to that point, I’d much rather impregnate a girl myself than through a lab.

 

Then again, there are often horror thoughts to genetic manipulation that are mostly unfounded or an instinctive reaction to an unnatural situation (at which point we conveniently forget that most of our lives are unnatural). I think that if slowly over time we get more and more familiar with the whole situation, much of the aversion will go away. After all, hunter-gatherers don’t want to be sedentary, but when mankind became agriculturists they needed to become sedentary and so they did. Human history is filled with examples of things we didn’t want to do but ended up doing anyway.

 

BTW... don't ANYONE agree with me? Or is it that everyone's gonna be aginst me like EVERY OTHER PowerglideING MESSAGE BOARD NO MATTER WHAT'S BEING DISCUSSED?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Uh, two things.

 

1) I clearly disagree with you on this point (don’t know about others)

2) although the quote is along the lines of “one must not confuse the truth with the opinion of the majority�, I would think that if on every messageboard you go to people disagree with you, then perhaps there is the slight possibility that your opinion is not correct. And changing ones opinion to circumstances and in light of new information, is also part of Evolution :P (But again, the opinion of the majority is not necessarily the same as the truth.)

Besides, the best way for a race/species to evolve is through breeding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, no it isn’t.

 

Breeding is a very inefficient way to evolve. Evolution, after all, is nothing more than the survival of those individuals who are best adapted to a changing environment; and really is a try and fail method. This usually coincides with the dying out of all those who are unfit to live in the new environment and the survival of a few individuals who form the foundation for the adapted species.

 

If rapid change/evolution is required, then breeding is way too slow. And indeed the history of life on earth is rife with examples of successful species who were unable to adapt sufficiently quick to adapt to changes.

 

Suppose mankind starts living in space with fast moving spaceships and weightlessness. Our bodies can’t cope with that. Evolution will in the end get it right, but it will take a VERY long time (and many squished humans). Genetic manipulation (and immediate physical alterations) will get it right almost immediately. Fast and effective.

 

To clarify with TF’s:

 

War breaks out on Cybertron. The Decepticons are built for war (and indeed, in the comics they adapted their bodies to better fight), while the Autobots are not. If breeding was the path of change/evolution, than almost all Autobots would’ve died while those few who had a natural adaption to warfare would’ve survived, needed to breed, the offspring needed to mature and only after all that, could the Autobots fight back against the Decepticons. They would’ve all been slaughtered by then.

 

However, they’re machines. They built new TF’s who are more capable of combat and even adapt their own bodies (e.g. in the Marvel comics this has happened, and more recently in DW MTMTE it was stated that Roadbuster adapted himself to be better able to fight). Micromasters are, according to the comic (both Marvel & DW) an adaptation to the energon depleted times. No waiting for breeding, but building new bodies to suit the new needs.

 

The same also happened with the Maximals. The Maximal upgrade program (as mentioned by Xbob) from the Universe comics, the inclusion of organic replication after they learned there are non-mechanical life forms. When the Maximals/Predacons arrive on pre-historic earth, they don’t start breeding to get organic altmode and maybe after a long time we’ll be able to get outside, no they adapt their bodies.

 

 

So it's more efficient... that don't make it better. I can't see humans being mass-produced in Martian or Jovian factories in 50,000 years.

 

Who knows what the future will bring. I, however, can see a future where the human genome is adapted to better suit the needs of the time. (A nice example of this is Peter F. Hamilton's Nightdawn trilogy. Read it: it's only 4000 pages)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Genetic manipulation will fail more than natural evolution will. Evolution makes creatures adapt to their invironment in every way... until humans OR TFs becoms intelligent enough to know how their own bodies work and grow, they can't reproduce the results of evolution.

 

No, evolution is directly very strongly to solving one problem at the time. Again: evolution is no more than the survival of those individuals who are best adapted to deal with a changing situation. There’s only the response to the immediate threat to the species. No more! Genetic manipulation can solve several problems at once.

 

Also, a small example. Say a certain change in the environment can be solved by possessing the genetic code of the allele referred to as “a�, while most individuals have “A�. (it’s often found that the dominant allele is not the one to deal with change and evolution, because most individuals have that one.) The chances of offspring getting his genetic make up are slim.

 

Situation-1: parent 1 has AA and parent 2 has Aa:=> none of the offspring will survive since aa is needed to make it possible to survive in a changing environment.

 

Situation-2: parent 1 has Aa and parent 2 has Aa:=> only 25 percent will survive. Offspring will consist of AA (25%), Aa (50%) and aa (25%

 

Of course, with a situation in which either or both parents have aa, the changes off ideal offspring are best.

 

And this is just with one allele. Most often to get a specific genetic characteristic to work, is a matter of several different types of allele to work together. If it’s just two markers (say a and b) then the chances to get an aabb offspring in case of situation 2 is only 1/16-th.

 

Genetic manipulation can be far more specific: isolating the needed genes and causing them to be incorporated in each and every offspring.

 

 

Oh, and why're you using an example of TFs fighting battles of all things? No species evolve to suit wars.

 

because TF’s are at war (that’s what the whole series about) and using the example of what is, is always more correct than using “what if’s� Furthermore, I could use references from the series. I could say the needed to adapt to living in a musical, but we’ve never seen that in TF (thank god for small favors :P). War we have seen and from the war situation there are clear examples to prove the point I made.

 

Also, on Earth we’re not familiar with a situation where a species evolved to suit wars. As are we not familiar with mechanical life. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist elsewhere. (Yes, you can use this argument to suggest mechanical sexual reproduction.) Besides, again, in the comics it is made clear that the TF’s did adapt themselves to fight a war: first the deceps, then the autobots.

 

And you're acting like human society without natural reproduction is a good thing... that's the most horrible thing I've heard on this board...

 

Never said that. Said that Genetic manipulation would make a far more effective adaptation to a (changing) situation than evolution.

 

Truth be told, I don’t want children but should through circumstances I ever get to that point, I’d much rather impregnate a girl myself than through a lab.

 

Then again, there are often horror thoughts to genetic manipulation that are mostly unfounded or an instinctive reaction to an unnatural situation (at which point we conveniently forget that most of our lives are unnatural). I think that if slowly over time we get more and more familiar with the whole situation, much of the aversion will go away. After all, hunter-gatherers don’t want to be sedentary, but when mankind became agriculturists they needed to become sedentary and so they did. Human history is filled with examples of things we didn’t want to do but ended up doing anyway.

 

BTW... don't ANYONE agree with me? Or is it that everyone's gonna be aginst me like EVERY OTHER PowerglideING MESSAGE BOARD NO MATTER WHAT'S BEING DISCUSSED?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Uh, two things.

 

1) I clearly disagree with you on this point (don’t know about others)

2) although the quote is along the lines of “one must not confuse the truth with the opinion of the majority�, I would think that if on every messageboard you go to people disagree with you, then perhaps there is the slight possibility that your opinion is not correct. And changing ones opinion to circumstances and in light of new information, is also part of Evolution :P (But again, the opinion of the majority is not necessarily the same as the truth.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fine, you Powerglideing win. I'm the dumbest of dumasses. I'm never right, and my opinions are always flawed. I'm the lowest of human beings.

Fine, you Powerglideing win. I'm the dumbest of dumasses. I'm never right, and my opinions are always flawed. I'm the lowest of human beings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i know you're not serious, but still. jusy because your opinion is wrong or you don't know something, doesn't mean you're dumb. you're human after all, remember?

Fine, you Powerglideing win. I'm the dumbest of dumasses. I'm never right, and my opinions are always flawed. I'm the lowest of human beings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i know you're not serious, but still. jusy because your opinion is wrong or you don't know something, doesn't mean you're dumb. you're human after all, remember?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excuse me? You think I'm not serious? You don't know me. You don't know what I go through in these Powerglideed up message boards. Plus I have a huge inferiority complex... I ALWAYS get told that my opinion is wrong because I'm supposedly debating aginst "fact", so pardon the Powerglide outta me if I don't agree with all this.

 

I don't care if you don't belive me, just get off my back.

Excuse me? You think I'm not serious? You don't know me. You don't know what I go through in these Powerglideed up message boards.

 

it's just message boards, when everything is said and done, they are not important... at all. it's just entertainment (to most)

 

Plus I have a huge inferiority complex...

 

you are in no ways inferior than me or anyone else on this board. right or wrong, everyone has the same value. just so you know.

 

I ALWAYS get told that my opinion is wrong because I'm supposedly debating aginst "fact"

 

then maybe you should know your facts and then create an opinion, that way, nobody'll disagree with you.

 

so pardon the Powerglide outta me if I don't agree with all this.

 

you're pardoned.

 

I don't care if you don't belive me, just get off my back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i was not trying to get on your back, not at all.

TFs becoms intelligent enough to know how their own bodies work and grow...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WTF? you're acting like tf's are organic lifeforms with no knowledge of where they came from. i will repete: THEY. ARE. MECHANOIDS. they build their own bodies from scratch. it's not like organics where they have no control over how their bodies are created.

TFs becoms intelligent enough to know how their own bodies work and grow...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WTF? you're acting like tf's are organic lifeforms with no knowledge of where they came from. i will repete: THEY. ARE. MECHANOIDS. they build their own bodies from scratch. it's not like organics where they have no control over how their bodies are created.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Disregarding TFs for a moment, I think you're generalizing mechanical life too much... "organic" beings can be made of metal, with nanomachines functioning like cells(with METALLIC organs!). They're "natural" instead of artificial(meaning that no one created them; they evolved on their own). There's no defined nature of alien life after all... there's lots of possibilities such as this.

 

I'm not saying any more that TFs are like that, but I am saying that it's a possibility for other(FICTITIOUS) alien life. But that means that the mechanical life in question wouldn't necissarily be advanced enough to "build" each other. They'd be different than what us humans are capable of building, at least for a few thousand years of technological development, but by then humans could build each other from scratch too.

 

Anyway, what I'm getting my strict belief about this from is that I can't stand the concept of cosmetics(such as "masculine" or "feminine" defined TFs) or a so-called "race" that can build each other from scratch.

 

 

 

On topic-I always thought the "goo" in stasis pods were billions of nanomachines, not yet programed to give the TF a solid form...

The Goo is nanotech. But that only aplies to the Beast Era, not neccesearly to the G1 toon/Marvel comics.