waiting till the final product is out and restricting one's feedback to "Yay" or "Nay" with their buying power is highly uncommunicative.

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I disagree.  If a product isn't selling, the producer knows something's wrong.

 

if we jump to conclusions and say "all these new alts are teh suxxors!!1!" when all we have are badly posed protos, we may never get the grand final design.

I got the feeling that the pilots (if not necessarily the hardcopies) will tend to look very close to the end product, no?  Because by that point, aren't they tooling the dies that will be used?  From what I've read of die-casting and injection molding, those are rather expensive and probably steps the developer doesn't want to repeat too many times.

 

Some of the opinion also stems from more fundamental disagreements about the toy.  Most of my dislikes are of this nature.  I don't tend to spend my time looking at much of protos (or I've only had recent access), but it's been the typical pattern that if I see the proto, I immediately know whether I'm open to it or not.  Generally, whatever causes the feeling of dislike isn't something that seems like it'd be easily changed.

 

In fact, when my opinions have changed, it's been from positive to negative.  For instance, whatever potential I saw in Alt Prowl seemed to disappear when I got to see images of an actual final product.

 

By the way, Robert, that's a very nice and informative site of yours.  I spent a couple hours reading the concept-to-product article.  I'm wondering how different the process is for Transformers since the transformation process must add a significant complication during that sculpt input and engineering phase.

waiting till the final product is out and restricting one's feedback to "Yay" or "Nay" with their buying power is highly uncommunicative.

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I disagree.  If a product isn't selling, the producer knows something's wrong.

Well that may be true, but don't you think that's a rather high price to pay just to find out something is wrong?  I mean that's how we in the public eventually end up looking at surpluses of products that nobody bought while wondering, "What on earth would ever possess someone to think that that would sell?"

 

Beyond that, the implication of your statement is that it is impossible, or near so, to know how well a product may do except by fully releasing it.  And if that's the case, then there is no point to doing market research (even if I may agree that marketing people are hardly the rocket scientists of their field).  Whether or not a product succeeds then is purely random, or at least that the feedback has no bearing on the success.

 

And this opens up all kinds of other implications that don't make sense.

* If the feedback has no merit, what is the point of releasing the images then?

* If they're not interested in what potential buyers think, who is the product even for?  I have to figure that if the designers do not consider fans, or even just hardcore fans, to make up the bulk of their target market, then why are prototypes and shots showed off at fan conventions or images released into the internet communities?

 

if we jump to conclusions and say "all these new alts are teh suxxors!!1!" when all we have are badly posed protos, we may never get the grand final design.

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Well... that may seem to be what would happen but.. ask yourself this: how likely is it that they would keep spending money and resources developing prototypes and never release any product at all?  I'm not too concerned about this happening because even a successful business can't afford to keep doing that.

*pulls out his Jump to Conclusions mat*

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:lol

 

 

:tfdance

*pulls out his Jump to Conclusions mat*

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Don't forget your jumpsuit.

 

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The Look On The Guys Face Is Priceless!

 

:rofl

 

 

:tfdance

waiting till the final product is out and restricting one's feedback to "Yay" or "Nay" with their buying power is highly uncommunicative.

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I disagree.  If a product isn't selling, the producer knows something's wrong.

Well that may be true, but don't you think that's a rather high price to pay just to find out something is wrong?  I mean that's how we in the public eventually end up looking at surpluses of products that nobody bought while wondering, "What on earth would ever possess someone to think that that would sell?"

Maybe, but if the product is bad, they've already lost money.  What difference does it make if they find out no one wants it when protoshots get leaked or when it hits shelves?

 

Beyond that, the implication of your statement is that it is impossible, or near so, to know how well a product may do except by fully releasing it.  And if that's the case, then there is no point to doing market research (even if I may agree that marketing people are hardly the rocket scientists of their field).  Whether or not a product succeeds then is purely random, or at least that the feedback has no bearing on the success.

I think that interpretation of my comment is a bit extreme.  Marketing research can focus on "why didn't this product sell, and how can we improve it."  And sometimes, the only way to know really is by releasing it.  That's why we get items like BTR jetfire & co released only in Ohio.

 

And this opens up all kinds of other implications that don't make sense.

* If the feedback has no merit, what is the point of releasing the images then?

* If they're not interested in what potential buyers think, who is the product even for?  I have to figure that if the designers do not consider fans, or even just hardcore fans, to make up the bulk of their target market, then why are prototypes and shots showed off at fan conventions or images released into the internet communities?

Considering the true market is children, I'm sure that >85% of sales occur with the buyer having no idea that images of the product were availible on the internet 6 months ago.  I'd hazard a guess that most sales follow this trend:

Kid: oh, look!  Megatron!  Can I get this mom?

Mom: well, it's $40.

Kid: ha-waaaaaaaaaaa!

Mom: ok.

 

Pictures are shown becuase the companies want to acknowledge fans, and because they make money off of conventions.

 

if we jump to conclusions and say "all these new alts are teh suxxors!!1!" when all we have are badly posed protos, we may never get the grand final design.

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Well... that may seem to be what would happen but.. ask yourself this: how likely is it that they would keep spending money and resources developing prototypes and never release any product at all?  I'm not too concerned about this happening because even a successful business can't afford to keep doing that.

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But...if our reactions to protos don't effect the release of that product, doesn't that show that the feedback is ignored for that product?  It goes into consideration for the next one, which is exactly what happens when items don't sell.

Well, I hate the Scion xB less now that it's Skids, but I absolutely hated it when it might have Ironhide.  Considering the crappy little car he used to be, the Scion is a short step up for Skids.  Now that Hasbro is making Sunstreaker and an Alternaotrs Prime, I have completely forgiven them.

 

 

Still, even after my reaction to the Scion, I was a bit surprised at how many people hated Alternator Optimus Prime.

Maybe, but if the product is bad, they've already lost money.  What difference does it make if they find out no one wants it when protoshots get leaked or when it hits shelves?

Presumably, prototype images are shown during the design stage (such as at the hardcopy), before die tooling and manufacturing takes place.  It would make the difference between saving the most expensive steps and not.

 

Beyond that, the implication of your statement is that it is impossible, or near so, to know how well a product may do except by fully releasing it.  And if that's the case, then there is no point to doing market research (even if I may agree that marketing people are hardly the rocket scientists of their field).  Whether or not a product succeeds then is purely random, or at least that the feedback has no bearing on the success.

I think that interpretation of my comment is a bit extreme.  Marketing research can focus on "why didn't this product sell, and how can we improve it."  And sometimes, the only way to know really is by releasing it.  That's why we get items like BTR jetfire & co released only in Ohio.

 

Pictures are shown becuase the companies want to acknowledge fans, and because they make money off of conventions.

Not to be snippy but that sounds a bit too much like the customers thinking what Charles Foster Kane tells them to think.

 

Well... that may seem to be what would happen but.. ask yourself this: how likely is it that they would keep spending money and resources developing prototypes and never release any product at all?  I'm not too concerned about this happening because even a successful business can't afford to keep doing that.

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But...if our reactions to protos don't effect the release of that product, doesn't that show that the feedback is ignored for that product?  It goes into consideration for the next one, which is exactly what happens when items don't sell.

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That's an extremely long delay.  If it is the case that most of the possible market won't buy, why wait one or more product development cycles or generations just to find out what talking directly with end customers would tell you just as easily and much sooner?  There's already a bit too much of a barrier between sellers and buyers.

I don't judge untill I've seen it/held it/owned it in person.

Presumably, prototype images are shown during the design stage (such as at the hardcopy), before die tooling and manufacturing takes place.  It would make the difference between saving the most expensive steps and not.

I guess so.  I always figured that by the time we got to see a proto, from someone buying it on ebay, most of them have already been produced.  How often are we given an official look at protos?  Once a year at botcon?  And if the protos are shown at a convention, I really doubt any fan concerns will alter the mold.

 

Not to be snippy but that sounds a bit too much like the customers thinking what Charles Foster Kane tells them to think.

who's Charles Foster Kane?

 

That's an extremely long delay.  If it is the case that most of the possible market won't buy, why wait one or more product development cycles or generations just to find out what talking directly with end customers would tell you just as easily and much sooner?  There's already a bit too much of a barrier between sellers and buyers.

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considering that the plans and designs for a line usually predate the release of the line by months, if not years, I don't think the delay is really that different.