I'm not shure if anyone has posted this topic before, if so, let me know!

 

OK, Hasbro/Takara have cracked down on the Prototype market with the same force we've seen from other industries on downloaded music files and sharing of anime via the net. My question is who truely is right on the prototype issue? I'm going to try my best to display both sides and let's hear some debate.

 

HASBRO: For these people, toys are more than a hobby. It's their bread and butter. In the market there are those who steal designs (we have all seen the umteen Gestalt sets in our local stores) and this is a VERY huge defiance of international law, even if it's only toys. They claim that these molds aresmuggled and shared with other companies before the go on the open market. They prefer to hang on to these for records, data, and for retooling purposes. They care little what anyone has to say when it comes to this matter. It has come to the point that they are trying to file lawsuits and claim that any photo's of these unpainted prototypes is a form of a crime. (to see how this is scaring many, just check out this boards guidelines).

 

FANS/COLLECTORS: Many agree that this selling of the molds when the line has yet to hit shelves is a bad thing, they also claim that after the fact, when the toys are on the shelves, anyone can copy their designs. They want the prototypes because they are seen as a rare fine gem in the world of Transformers, super hard finds and something to be proud of, brag about (I come from this school of thought). I myself have a prototype that i saved up money for, final got. It's the pride of my collection and i feel it's my right to own this toy.

 

Also I have noticed that there are a peculiar amount of Cybertron prototypes out on eBay...most from the same handful of dealers. Prototypes are produced in a very very low run, usualy under the 10 mark and after thir use, they are either destroyed, kept for record, or given away as gifts. These sellers have had some of these molds for sale now over 1 month and have been selling a lot of them. Keep an eye out folks, it could be a scam, not shure.

In my opinion this issue is so cut and dried it doesn't warrant a discussion.  Hasbro/Takara property has been stolen.  That's it.  There's no question of who is wrong and who is right, one party is a thief, the other is a victim. 

 

In my opinion (and I'm pretty sure I'm right), the physical toy is not all that important to Haskara.  It's the intellectual property and threat of duplication that scares them.  Some outfit in China duplicates a 20 year old mold, and it's an annoyance that they may or may not get concerned about.  But to have an upcoming toy fall into the hands of such a company prior to its release could cost them a pretty penny.  Toys can usually be reverse-engineered, knocked off and mass produced fairly quickly, and there's a chance that the official product an KO product reach the consumer at about the same time.  Given that the KO will be a fraction of the price, the company that actually put forth the investment and effort to invent it is at a disadvantage.

 

And there's not much in the way of recourse for Haskara.  If China were to crack down on all of thier KO factories, over 60% of their population would be unemployed.  No, that's not a typo, nor is it an exageration.  This is why the WTO won't let them in.  It has nothing to do with communism, it's because it'd be too great a sacrifice for the Chinese to enforce international law.  So Haskara would be Blot out of luck when it came to shutting down production of these KO's.  They could exercise their influence with retailers, but that's about it.

 

So while I like to look at pics of molds months prior to their release, I in no way find those that steal these molds and sell them to be anything more than what they are; thieves.

Well put, but what about those prototypes that are given as gifts to people and later sold (as in the case of mine, a third passed down prototype)? It was given in freewill to an individual who the decided at a later date to sell it and then it was sold again?

Ah, that story again. There's the people who represent the extreme "People who deal with, buy or even look at STOLEN prototypes are SCUM and deserve to get HANGED, SHOT and MAIMED and will without a doubt go to HELL for all their SINS" position.

 

Well. What's the story?

 

A long, long time ago, some dudes in China discovered that those ugly plastic things they were assembling for little money were not only being bought by parents for their children, but there were some older people collecting them as well. So, they had the idea - "if adult people actually collect the toys, how much would they be willing to pay for even rarer stuff, say... unfinished pre-production pieces?" Born was the infamous "prototype" market, beginning with individuals such as SPQQKY, eventually to grow to full heights thanks to the wonderful world of evilBay.

 

Without going into further details, what's Hasbro's official position?

 

Two years ago, there was a little something called the "Collector's Media Event". Hasbro explicitly asked all the major fan sites attending that event not to post any pics of prototypes any longer. See here for the official bulletin.

 

It's generally presumed that this happened mainly on behalf of Lucasfilm, since a Star Wars prototype had surfaced shortly beforehand, and George Lucas was reportedly pretty pissed about that.

 

What should also be noted is that Hasbro promised to forward an extensive set of guidelines to all the sites in question explaining what is to be considered "appropriate" and what is not with regard to news. As Transfandom thankfully point out, Hasbro still haven't fulfilled that promise to this very day, more than two years later.

 

Aaron Archer also had some things to say about this in an interview:

 

Stormrider: How do you feel to see prototypes up for auction on E-bay or photographs online before the toys are released? I know that was mentioned as a problem at the start of Hasbro's presentation here today.

 

Archer: Yeah, it’s a problem. There's obviously an interest, and with any fan-based thing you are going to have that. We try to manage that, but stuff always gets out. It kinds stinks because you always want the best-colored version out first. I want to be able to explain in a press release, or a magazine, or on the Internet or whatever. To be able to describe this, that or the other. Having someone see the prototype, speculate and be disappointed, or think it does one thing then find out that it doesn't and be mad… Well it never was going to do that. It was all based on a bad image that was stolen form the factory or what not. All the prototypes do is cause confusion, and that's annoying. But it's not going to stop I suppose, unfortunately. Prototypes take all the fun out of the surprise. They destroy all the mystery. Because of the prototype leaks, you know everything that we are going to release for the next 7 months. What do fans have to look forward to now? We, as well as the fans, have lost the element of surprise.

 

Well. So, after Hasbro had asked all those sites not to post prototype pics anymore, (almost) everyone was applying by these new rules for a while. Eventually, though, it turned out that Hasbro

a) had no legal stand to enforce their demands or

b) had a legal stand, but considered it to be not viable with regard to the cost-value ratio.

 

So, everyone eventually went back to the practice of posting pics of prototypes, with the exception of Transfandom and Ben Yee.

Ben's rule is "you can link them, you can talk about them, just don't directly post pics on my site." Transfandom are a lot stricter, they don't even allow links and only tolerate vague hints at where one might find the pics everyone's talking about.

 

Some other sites such as Altered States Magazine, TFU.info etc. also don't allow pics of and discussion about "unauthorized" images.

 

To my knowledge, neither of them has been rewarded by Hasbro for their exemplary behavior so far, and neither do the sites that allow pics, links and and discussions, and even report them on their frontpage (TFW 2005, TFormers/TFans, Allspark, Seibertron) appear to have been threatened with legal action from Hasbro, aside maybe from the infamous "Armada Overload" incident, which even predated the "Collector's Media Event", and the OTFCC 2003 exclusives.

 

So, almost everyone's now back to posting prototype pics like there's no tomorrow.

 

What about Hasbro again?

 

Last March, Hasbro posted the following  on their website:

 

Q: There has been some discussion as to what happens to the prototypes/mockups after they are presented at Toy Fair and various other events that Hasbro attends.  Are they put away for possible future use?  Are they discarded?  Do fans have the opportunity to acquire them?

A: Prototype toys are not made for prolonged play and have not passed safety requirements.  Hasbro does not sell or store prototype toys for this reason.  Prototype samples are created for production proofing, internal presentations or Toy Fair and are not cleared through Quality Assurance.  Hasbro does not sell or give away prototypes at all.  Any prototypes that fans may have seen for sale on websites have been obtained through unauthorized means.

 

Nearly at the same time, there was some discussion going on at ATT (some things never change, eh?) about someone buying an Alt Hound proto and bragging about it.

 

Eventually, Ben Yee posted the following:

 

HASBRO told me this is stolen and NOT MEANT FOR SALE. What do you want? A certified engraved LETTER from President Bush certifying this?

 

Finally, at OTFCC 2004, Hasbro said something like this (typos corrected for better readability):

 

To keep Alternators a surprise, Hasbro has asked people to stop buying protos and test shots on eBay, so collectors can get information through places like Transformers.com. Basically, no-one buys, no-one sells.

 

Lately, Hasbro have tried out various ideas to make their test shots "uninteresting" for collectors. A Cybertron Thundercracker test shot surfaced with bent rear wings, Cybertron Landmine and Alternators Decepticharge were spray-painted (Landmine in extremely hideous colors), and now they tried out yet another idea with Alternators Prowl:

They started to mark them with etched in tracking numbers, presumably as a means of finding the "leak".

 

So... the bottom line?

 

Do I try to enforce my own views on you? Nope. I'm not in any position to claim I'm representing Hasbro or any other superior authority.

Do I want to point out that Hasbro have made it clear more than once in the past that these things are STOLEN and not meant to end up in the hands of collectors? Yes.

 

You want to know a funny story?

Last year, unpainted prototypes of a red Honda S2000 Alternator surfaced. Everyone went crazy over his identity. Eventually, a first pic of a painted test shot surfaced at TFormers that showed a close-up of the license plate, and it said "WND CGR".

Still, no other pics surfaced. Instead, a certain well-known proto seller put up an auction for the rights to the FIRST PICS of the painted test shot. The highest bidding website would be granted the "exclusive rights" to publish those pics first. The auction actually went up to four bids and a little more than 20 Dollars.

In a way, I'd have really wanted to know who the fools were that actually bidded on this. Either they didn't read the auction description properly and thought it was for the actual proto, or there are really at least two people out there who are greedy enough to pay money so they can be the FIRST ones to have pics of a TOY and thereby show everyone what a big virtual pee-pee they have.

 

Unfortunately, the fun was spoiled when P.Prime posted the first pics of a fully painted Windcharger test shot at TFW 2005 about an hour before the auction ended. The most ironic thing is, he didn't even know about the auction until I told him about it a few months ago.

 

Either way, whether you're buying prototypes or not - keep in mind: THESE are the people they're coming from.

I see not problem with prototype proliferation. I also do not mind that Hasbro does weird things to the toys, which I wouldn't say necessarily will detract from the demand for them like they say. If they really want to modify their prototypes so that no one will want them, they should use bootleg quality plastic.

If they really want to modify their prototypes so that no one will want them, they should use bootleg quality plastic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, people will still buy them.  And then complain endlessly about how cheap the plastic is on various forums and get the fandom all worked up about it and swearing up and down that Hasbro sucks and this toy is going to suck and that they will not buy it.  Then the production ones come out and everyone loves it.  :tftongue

I agree 100% with peteynorth. It's not your property; it's Hasbro's. We only CHOOSE to look at this differently because we WANT them.

Nevermore mentioned that Hasbro has sugested going to transformers.com for toy info if we need it. Has anyone ever noticed that every fan site on the net has a better idea of what hasbro is selling than hasbro does?! they still post pics of toys that have not been made since 2001-2002. Thankfully takara seems to be on the ball and up to date with their products. Also hasbro has a nasty habit of only selling to licensed dealers and retailers right now. Oh well. Nevermore, thank you for your input! More people, let's hear some more!

Can anyone fill me in on the Armada Overload incident?  You have me really curious now.

You want to know a funny story?

Last year, unpainted prototypes of a red Honda S2000 Alternator surfaced. Everyone went crazy over his identity. Eventually, a first pic of a painted test shot surfaced at TFormers that showed a close-up of the license plate, and it said "WND CGR".

Still, no other pics surfaced. Instead, a certain well-known proto seller put up an auction for the rights to the FIRST PICS of the painted test shot. The highest bidding website would be granted the "exclusive rights" to publish those pics first. The auction actually went up to four bids and a little more than 20 Dollars.

In a way, I'd have really wanted to know who the fools were that actually bidded on this. Either they didn't read the auction description properly and thought it was for the actual proto, or there are really at least two people out there who are greedy enough to pay money so they can be the FIRST ones to have pics of a TOY and thereby show everyone what a big virtual pee-pee they have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Pssst......wanna buy some proto pics? 10 bucks a hit...............

 

;)