what is the point ..................

 

not like its a painting or anything is it?

Nah you just get to stare at it and fear that one day if you break down and want to play with it, you will have just LOST 1k!

 

AFA are morons and so are the people who support them.

Nah you just get to stare at it and fear that one day if you break down and want to play with it, you will have just LOST 1k!

 

AFA are morons and so are the people who support them.

That's a pretty bad insult to people who use AFA - I am NOT a moron because I use them...Why am I moron??? Because I actually care about preserving my toys...You have your preferences and so do I but I don't go around insulting your collection do I? So stop calling people morons because you can't sit there and make ignorant comments generalizing people who use a grading service...

 

Besides, the people that are the morons are not AFA - in fact, the morons are those sellers who set super high reserves on AFA products and the buyers who want to bid 2K for them....

Nah you just get to stare at it and fear that one day if you break down and want to play with it, you will have just LOST 1k!

 

AFA are morons and so are the people who support them.

That's a pretty bad insult to people who use AFA - I am NOT a moron because I use them...Why am I moron??? Because I actually care about preserving my toys...You have your preferences and so do I but I don't go around insulting your collection do I? So stop calling people morons because you can't sit there and make ignorant comments generalizing people who use a grading service...

 

Besides, the people that are the morons are not AFA - in fact, the morons are those sellers who set super high reserves on AFA products and the buyers who want to bid 2K for them....

 

This is more than just about an individuals "preference". Do you really believe once you slab something with AFA you never have to get it redone? The same applies to CGC comics, you will pay yet again to ensure the grading is updated. It is not a one time, never have to touch or worry about it again deal.

 

As for preserving your toys, sure you have EVERY right to do so. But is AFA the only way you or others can do this? Is this the most economical and efficient way to do it? And is preserving toys by AFA a standardized grading system that is recognized and followed, or is it a system that attempts to create a new system? For myself AFA is not the most accurate, economical or efficient way of grading or preserving toys. I also do not like the fact it is not a relatively new system that is essentially saying the old grading does not work, we have a better way.

 

As for the sellers for online auctions, they can price their items however high or low they wish and if they feel the need to use a reserve, do it, afterall, they alone are paying for the service.

 

But one out of many problems involving AFA is the fact is that is NOT a universal standard anymore so than CGC = a univerally recognized standard. Thus, even though there are some people who do appreciate what both AFA and CGS does, they do not realize the negative consequences it has on the greater comic and toy collecting industry. There are more people who grade toys and comics without AFA and CGC than their are that do.

 

Another problem I have with AFA is I can basically take a fig that is new and readily available and have it graded. When AFA grades does is research and factor in the rarity/demand for the item? I highly doubt it. Thus, a E-SS which is readily available can get a high AFA grading, be preserved, and be placed by a seller online auctions for sale at unreasonably high prices. Someone did this recently with a lot of Alts. Nuts. But what exactly are you the consumer paying for? Their grading on merely the condition or does it involve a battery of tests and factors? Do you understand now the inherent problems that underlie this service?

 

IF and mind you a huge IF, the day should pass when AFA or CGC becomes the universally recognized standard, then and only then, I will accept and use them. But the sad truth is AFA is not used by every dealer, or collector. Most collectors equally recognize while there is a need for a standardized grading system, the only real benefit AFA has is if you decide to resell your toy. Did you view the AFA Wheelie auction? Some items do not need to be AFA graded and as for the accuracy, one should question it.

You talk about stuff with people selling AFA graded common items like Wheelie, Alts, BT's etc....That's not AFA's fault - it's the people who want to grade them that are responsible.

 

Sellers have a right to set their prices and people have a right to bid on their stuff, but again, I say that you can't hold AFA responsible for what a seller chooses to sell his or her stuff for....

 

The other part is the whole deal with having to get your toys regraded. Go to the afa website and tell me where it states in their policies that you have to get your toys re-graded again and again....No - I;m not sure about CGC but nowhere on the website does it say that you will have to continually get your toys re-graded...

 

I respect that you don't like AFA and I'm not asking you or trying to convince you to do so. All I am saying is that not everyone uses AFA to make a profit and that people are not idiots because they do use them.

You talk about stuff with people selling AFA graded common items like Wheelie, Alts, BT's etc....That's not AFA's fault - it's the people who want to grade them that are responsible.

 

Sellers have a right to set their prices and people have a right to bid on their stuff, but again, I say that you can't hold AFA responsible for what a seller chooses to sell his or her stuff for....

 

The other part is the whole deal with having to get your toys regraded. Go to the afa website and tell me where it states in their policies that you have to get your toys re-graded again and again....No - I;m not sure about CGC but nowhere on the website does it say that you will have to continually get your toys re-graded...

 

I respect that you don't like AFA and I'm not asking you or trying to convince you to do so. All I am saying is that not everyone uses AFA to make a profit and that people are not idiots because they do use them.

Indeed what you cite is actually another part of the problem with AFA. People try to defend AFA claiming it is not their fault that some people who use their service are irresponsible and dishonest, this is partly true but only to an extent. AFA cannot wipe its hands clean b/c there IS a direct correlation with the service AFA provides and how its service ENABLES people to misuse it. Look back before the creation of slabbing comics with CGC and toys with AFA. There were auctions before, perhaps not in same magnitude as international buyers of today, but collections could be appraised by people who were trained. And even if someone did not have professional training to grade comics or toys, buyers still managed well BEFORE the existence of AFA and CGC. It is only AFTER the creation of these two services that customers starting to pay often times ridiculously inflated prices for comics and toys that were highly questionable. Case in point, http://www.teako170.com/spawn.html

 

Although AFA and CGC should not be held responsible for the individual choices in spending, they are equally guilty for directly contributing to the over inflation in value and inaccurate grading (based on questionable unrecognized standards) is among additional problems that exist due to both AFA and CGC. "Any value associated with a particular issue is not intrinsic - it is imposed by the market and confirmed by the purchaser. Over enough time, as deterioration takes place, 'normal' grading standards can become more elastic to compensate - whereas slabbed editions have a 'locked in' grading regimen; there can be no adjustment of standards to reflect the reality of the effects of time - that would undercut the existing slabbed books."

 

Undoubtedly there are people who want to use AFA to grade items that are not rare do misusing AFA. IMO by merely existing, AFA and the service it provides enables people to have literally any toy regardless of its rarity become graded and slabbed. Now these same items as I asked previously if they were not graded by AFA would not command high resell prices/value? Probably not. As such, what is it exactly that makes AFA & CGC such valued services? One could assert the claim they provide a service that is professionally graded and held by strict standards. Maybe, but is their grading policies a internationally recognized standard? Do more dealers and buyers alike recognize and acknowledge/use their grading instead of what alternatively exists? I would vehemently argue CGC and AFA is not recognized internationally and practiced by most dealers and buyers alike.

 

AFA does not need to say on their site verbatim that you will must have your toys regraded. Why? For the same reasons WHY you need to have your comics regraded, b/c the materials with which these collectibles and not so collectibles are created with ARE degradable. This should be commonsense, since both comics and toys are made with parts and packages that "bleed" acids and are susceptible to degrading over time. Even the packaging for toys bleed and very few protective packages for toys are created to: 1)completely block UV rays, 2)are completely acidfree, 3)and prevent it from natural elements in the air. I've read they add nitrogen, which ironically contains ammonia. As you know with the UV protection, the packaging and the contents, especially with toys will get damaged. It should go without saying, extreme damage occurs to comics exposed to UV light, a little exposure can and will damage items greatly. Likewise if you are collector of original art, cels, and drawings. As for the acidfree aspect comics are printed products as are the toy packages/cards, these also bleed and release acid. Even with people who do bag and board comics, they must still religously change, maintain them after a few years. The same applies to CGC and AFA packages, neither COMPLETELY can or will prevent the contents from releasing bleeding, even with reduced exposure to the elements, air, moisture, etc. Thus, as I wrote, you will have to change the "protective packaging" over time and the longer you keep it, you will be required to change it and if you want to keep the AFA or CGC standard, you got to have it done by them again and pay them, again.

 

The primary purpose of both AFA and CGC is to make a profit, there are more people who do use their services to do this, than those who do not. I realize you might not engage in this practice and I respect and applaud you for your efforts. However, both were created for the purpose of instituting their new grading standards (which directly states the previously existing ones were inadequate), and to appease the sellers desire for maximizing their profits and assure consumers that they are purchasing a thoroughly inspected item. However this brings up my last point, aside from the fleecing of considerably monies from the unsuspecting for this service, is the situation that would arise if someone opens the slab and unfortunately finds something amiss. As a buyer you cannot get any monetary compensation from the company CGC and I highly doubt, AFA would compensate you if there was something amiss as well. Both can easily state, "Well, you opened the protective case/slab, therefore the grade is invalid and there is no guarantee that this is the item that was slabbed".

 

As I said, numerous problems abound with the existence of these two services and most people just do not look beyond the short term benefits and certainly, do not consider the numerous negative broader consequences on the industry, the accuracy of the "grading", and WHY they are really using their service to get items graded. All I ask is people seriously THINK about what these services do b/c there are so many factors involving AFA and CGC grading that buyers typically do not even begin to fathom.

You talk about stuff with people selling AFA graded common items like Wheelie, Alts, BT's etc....That's not AFA's fault - it's the people who want to grade them that are responsible.

 

Sellers have a right to set their prices and people have a right to bid on their stuff, but again, I say that you can't hold AFA responsible for what a seller chooses to sell his or her stuff for....

 

The other part is the whole deal with having to get your toys regraded.  Go to the afa website and tell me where it states in their policies that you have to get your toys re-graded again and again....No - I;m not sure about CGC but nowhere on the website does it say that you will have to continually get your toys re-graded...

 

I respect that you don't like AFA and I'm not asking you or trying to convince you to do so.  All I am saying is that not everyone uses AFA to make a profit and that people are not idiots because they do use them.

Indeed what you cite is actually another part of the problem with AFA. People try to defend AFA claiming it is not their fault that some people who use their service are irresponsible and dishonest, this is partly true but only to an extent. AFA cannot wipe its hands clean b/c there IS a direct correlation with the service AFA provides and how its service ENABLES people to misuse it. Look back before the creation of slabbing comics with CGC and toys with AFA. There were auctions before, perhaps not in same magnitude as international buyers of today, but collections could be appraised by people who were trained. And even if someone did not have professional training to grade comics or toys, buyers still managed well BEFORE the existence of AFA and CGC. It is only AFTER the creation of these two services that customers starting to pay often times ridiculously inflated prices for comics and toys that were highly questionable. Case in point, http://www.teako170.com/spawn.html

 

Although AFA and CGC should not be held responsible for the individual choices in spending, they are equally guilty for directly contributing to the over inflation in value and inaccurate grading (based on questionable unrecognized standards) is among additional problems that exist due to both AFA and CGC. "Any value associated with a particular issue is not intrinsic - it is imposed by the market and confirmed by the purchaser. Over enough time, as deterioration takes place, 'normal' grading standards can become more elastic to compensate - whereas slabbed editions have a 'locked in' grading regimen; there can be no adjustment of standards to reflect the reality of the effects of time - that would undercut the existing slabbed books."

 

Undoubtedly there are people who want to use AFA to grade items that are not rare do misusing AFA. IMO by merely existing, AFA and the service it provides enables people to have literally any toy regardless of its rarity become graded and slabbed. Now these same items as I asked previously if they were not graded by AFA would not command high resell prices/value? Probably not. As such, what is it exactly that makes AFA & CGC such valued services? One could assert the claim they provide a service that is professionally graded and held by strict standards. Maybe, but is their grading policies a internationally recognized standard? Do more dealers and buyers alike recognize and acknowledge/use their grading instead of what alternatively exists? I would vehemently argue CGC and AFA is not recognized internationally and practiced by most dealers and buyers alike.

 

AFA does not need to say on their site verbatim that you will must have your toys regraded. Why? For the same reasons WHY you need to have your comics regraded, b/c the materials with which these collectibles and not so collectibles are created with ARE degradable. This should be commonsense, since both comics and toys are made with parts and packages that "bleed" acids and are susceptible to degrading over time. Even the packaging for toys bleed and very few protective packages for toys are created to: 1)completely block UV rays, 2)are completely acidfree, 3)and prevent it from natural elements in the air. I've read they add nitrogen, which ironically contains ammonia. As you know with the UV protection, the packaging and the contents, especially with toys will get damaged. It should go without saying, extreme damage occurs to comics exposed to UV light, a little exposure can and will damage items greatly. Likewise if you are collector of original art, cels, and drawings. As for the acidfree aspect comics are printed products as are the toy packages/cards, these also bleed and release acid. Even with people who do bag and board comics, they must still religously change, maintain them after a few years. The same applies to CGC and AFA packages, neither COMPLETELY can or will prevent the contents from releasing bleeding, even with reduced exposure to the elements, air, moisture, etc. Thus, as I wrote, you will have to change the "protective packaging" over time and the longer you keep it, you will be required to change it and if you want to keep the AFA or CGC standard, you got to have it done by them again and pay them, again.

 

The primary purpose of both AFA and CGC is to make a profit, there are more people who do use their services to do this, than those who do not. I realize you might not engage in this practice and I respect and applaud you for your efforts. However, both were created for the purpose of instituting their new grading standards (which directly states the previously existing ones were inadequate), and to appease the sellers desire for maximizing their profits and assure consumers that they are purchasing a thoroughly inspected item. However this brings up my last point, aside from the fleecing of considerably monies from the unsuspecting for this service, is the situation that would arise if someone opens the slab and unfortunately finds something amiss. As a buyer you cannot get any monetary compensation from the company CGC and I highly doubt, AFA would compensate you if there was something amiss as well. Both can easily state, "Well, you opened the protective case/slab, therefore the grade is invalid and there is no guarantee that this is the item that was slabbed".

 

As I said, numerous problems abound with the existence of these two services and most people just do not look beyond the short term benefits and certainly, do not consider the numerous negative broader consequences on the industry, the accuracy of the "grading", and WHY they are really using their service to get items graded. All I ask is people seriously THINK about what these services do b/c there are so many factors involving AFA and CGC grading that buyers typically do not even begin to fathom.

all intriging points, I personally think its a travesty, for example I am into cars both current and classic and love to watch millions of pounds worth of ultra rare cares bombing around the tracks, there was a smash the other day between a ferrari and a original GT40 which must have totally a million in damage at least. I personally have all boxes and my stuff is mint but I think things should be available for the purpose that they were created, what if all nice cars were locking an garages all the time.

 

Though that said there are somethings I would like to see preserved in lucite, politicians mostly lol.

 

Anyone remember the AFA alternators smokescreen that was about not long back? that was a true joke. Why waste money on readily available mint examples exist? Lots of mint in sealed boxes of almost every transformer are out there, I would sooner have 2 mint rare TFs than 1 in a plastic box with AFA on it.

 

Of course this is all just my own opinion ;)

But you raise a valid point Jag, we are seeing more AFA toys that are new that are available. Sigh when will the insanity stop?

I love AFA, They put your toys in really cool proffesional cases so you never have to worry about damaging them ever again (unless you put them in sunlight) You get the satisfaction that you're toy you love so dearly, is going to be VERY WELL proctected for a very long time. because you never know what is going to happen. No matter how many precautions you take. things can fall off shelves, shelfs can colapse, moisture, dust, air, finger prints, they all destroy boxes over time. And you enver have to worry about the toys falling off the shelf and damaging the box. People dont just use AFA for any toy. they use AFA for MINT toys in MINT boxes. or as close to mint as possible. Anyone in their right mind would want to keep an absolute mint collector item like an original optimus prime in the best condition they could, and keep it away from as many elements they could. those cases they put them in, never allow the cards to bent, they never allow anything to phyically touch the box, that could wreck it. And they have a great grading condition for you to use incase you want to share your condition with others for any reason.

 

I dont trust people these days anymore. a lot of people throw the word MINT around way too much. MINT to me, is absoluty nothing wrong with it at all. Not a scratch!! I can't stand people that say a toy is C9, and box C9, but then there are rips and dents in the box with pretty bad wear. Nothing pisses me off more.

 

With AFA, you know what you are getting, and that REALLY makes people like me and other perfectionist collectors comfortable.

 

Back on the auction though. that price is obsurd. the box is damaged in several places, and its only a rating of 80. The buyer has to be new to collecting.