Jump to content

The Bond Gadget Test


Recommended Posts

I love G1 Megatron and Soundwave. THe cassetts, great toys. Size changes in a cartoon: NO big deal. But as the line has evolved and as it moves into a more mainstream light where ite will need to maintain the disbelif of a larger number of uninvolved people to succeeed, Mini modes in a story about giant robots is just...

 

Dumb.

 

Even if they explaind "Mass shifitng" 5 times only the dorks would understand anyway. The rest of the audience would just say "That movie made no sense." Come on, didn't everyone go to film school?

 

Obviously not. :tdown

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 421
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

We seemed to get all the way through Beast Wars without it.

 

Even if they did it, why would that be cool?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay, but when I say speculation, I'm talking about when compared to the rules of the movie universe, since that's what is in discussion. I have no problem with cartoon/comic Soundwave. I love him to death.

 

What we're debating is the need to actually introduce Mass Shifting technology into the movies, and from a story standpoint, there isn't one. That's what needs to be addressed.

 

It isn't speculation though. It is established Transformers lore, upon which the movie is based. and yes there is one. You have an iconic character whose sole primary function is to provide communications for the Decepticon forces by transmitting, receiving, intercepting, recording, analizing , and playing back communications and data for others to hear or see, while remaining completely innouculous in alt mode yet fully combat capable in robot mode. Such a character needs mass conversion ability. Therefore, from a story standpoint it becomes necessary or you can't use that character. This is why they chose to save Soundwave for the sequel to begin with.

 

No, but see, that's my whole point. His primary function is the actual repair, which has to be done in robot mode. Whether he turns into an ambulance, a tow truck, or a jet plane is inconsequential.

 

Also, in movie world, his ambulance mode couldn't actually transport any wounded Autobots. They'd be too big.

Very true, but hs is still better equipped with that mode because it carries all the equipment he needs to perform his primary function; it also better fits who he is. a regular car would not be very well suited to his primary function now would it? An Emergency vehicle is that is why it was chosen for his alt mode in the movie.

 

Agreed. But not necessary. And I've already listed numerous non-mass shifting modes that would do that for Soundwave.
Modes which would draw attention to him, sure, not completely innoculous ubitquitous forms. All of the modes you have described would draw unwanted attention to Soundwave and thus risk giving him away. They also require him to devote more of his internal systems to other things instead of his primary function.

 

There's no connection there. The notion that the alt. mode would change depending on where he was hiding is exactly why he wouldn't want to rely on his alt. mode to perform his primary functions. He'd want his robot mode to be self-reliant so he would be free to travel and take on a new disguise without worrying about whether communications equipment was a common sight to see in that area.
Wrong, there is a very bign connection. The outward appearance of the piece of equipment isn't as important as its basic function. Soundwave's basic function is to transmit, intercept, recieve, analize and report or replay communications to and from his fellow Decepticons. His original Cybertronian alt mode was designed for that purpose. He simply took on the outward appearance as well as functions of a tape deck when he came to Earth becasue it was similar in function and appearance to his original Cybertroniant mode, though not identical. His function often required him to infiltrate enemy and human areas, so he needed an innoculous form. He also needed to plug into other systems and copy the data stored which is also something he would not be able to do with any other type of alt mode. Hence his alt mode which is able to do all of that. This would be just as true in the movie.

 

See my above comment. You keep bringing up comic/cartoon rules when we're discussing mass shifting in the sequel to the movie. Things are going to work differently. Which, honestly, is a point that seems to address the rest of your post.

 

What this is about is whether Mass Shifting is going to do the movie Transformers any good, based on the established needs of that storyline. I say no. I say it's a waste of their time, and provides them no advantage they don't already possess in the movie world.

The comics and cartoons are the primary source of Transformers lore, and thus cannot be ignored. The primary identifying factor for Soundwave as a character and his function require him to have an alt mode which is some form of recording/playback device like a portable stereo yet still be a large combat capable officer. This requires him to be able to size shift. The story perspective is "how is he capable of doing this?" This can be worked believably into a sequel, but not into the first movie because there are already too many other fantasitc elements being addressed. The "whys" are already explained in established lore. The "hows" (as in how to make it look believable in live action) are best left up to the computer effects guys.

 

In order to prove me wrong, you have to make arguments based on why it's important to these specific characters in this specific story to gain this technology. If you're just going to continue bringing up the past comic/cartoons, then this discussion needs to stop, because you're talking about something else.

 

Essentially, my point is similar to this: I'm saying Spider-Man 3 doesn't need to introduce Web Shooter technology, cause he can already accomplish everything web shooters give him without them, and you're telling me he should have web shooters because that's what the Spidey in the 80s used, and the technology for them was just too much to fit into the first 2 movies.

 

What you need to do now is tell me why in the world Web Shooters would benefit Spidey in the 3rd movie. And citing an out-of-date Marvel Handbook isn't going to accomplish that task for you.

The difference here is that Soundwave and his abilities have not been addressed in any form in the first movie. Soundwave has a very specific specialty, which is communications. His alt mode is and always has been devoted to that primary function and is best suited to that function. Why would that be added into a sequel? Because new characters are being introduced, with unique alt modes and abilities not previously addressed, that require it. Secondly, I haven't been citing out of date sources, but rather current sources. The answers to why they have this ability is tied into established Transformers lore, just like everything else in the movies. How and when it is introduced is what is important, and making it believable, and that can be found in established lore as well.

 

Understand something. I don't care if I "prove you wrong". This isn't an issue of who is right and who is wrong. It is a matter of opinion. There is no right or wrong answer here. The point is it can be done believably in the sequel, and it is true to the character, and that is what is ultimately the most important factor. However, it is too much for a first movie because there are already too many other fantasitc elements to be explained or taken for granted and time cannot be devoted to that issue. Comparing mass shifting, which is not even being addressed in th first movie, to web shooters in Spiderman, which was addressed, is not a very good analogy. Nothing in the first movie says that there aren't transformers who can change their size. They avoid the issue entirely. The issue will not be addressed in any form in the first movie, which allows it to be addressed in a second movie.

Edited by Tramp
Link to post
Share on other sites
I love G1 Megatron and Soundwave. THe cassetts, great toys. Size changes in a cartoon: NO big deal. But as the line has evolved and as it moves into a more mainstream light where ite will need to maintain the disbelif of a larger number of uninvolved people to succeeed, Mini modes in a story about giant robots is just...

 

Dumb.

 

Even if they explaind "Mass shifitng" 5 times only the dorks would understand anyway. The rest of the audience would just say "That movie made no sense." Come on, didn't everyone go to film school?

If size shifting were such a "dumb" idea, it wouldn't have been a mainstay of science fiction and fantasy for over a century. There are innumerable movies, TV shows, comic books, novels, and short stories which deal with characters who can grow or shrink. Examples include the comic book characters The Atom, Antman/Giantman, Wasp, Shrinking Violet of the Legion of Superheroes, and others. Then we have the moves Honey I Shrunk the Kids, Attack of the 50' Woman (a classic 1950's B movie), Colossus, Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger and others. Therefore to say that the general audience would say "That movie made no sense," is false. If they had tried to do it with the first movie, then yes, it would be harder to pull off, though not impossible. By saving it for a sequel, it becomes much easier to make believable. It isn't a dumb idea. If it were, it wouldn't have been such a staple of the genre.

Link to post
Share on other sites

In movies ABOUT shrinking yeah, finel.

 

But what would it bring to a movie about liveing transforming robots? Whats it for? Why do you even want it? Why would a film maker bother? Even the dorks cant agree it makes sense. I'm all for a retcon excuse for the original line so we can continue to enjoy the premise in our old age in comics or maybe for role playing but I see no point in shoving a overburdend overtechnical RETCON down the throats of a mainstream audience that we want to like our chosen franchise.

 

Leave it in the 2nd dimension. It's fine there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
We seemed to get all the way through Beast Wars without it.

 

Even if they did it, why would that be cool?

 

 

Have to correct myself... Ravage does mass shift in Beast Wars.

 

So sue me.

Link to post
Share on other sites
In movies ABOUT shrinking yeah, finel.

 

But what would it bring to a movie about liveing transforming robots? Whats it for? Why do you even want it? Why would a film maker bother? Even the dorks cant agree it makes sense. I'm all for a retcon excuse for the original line so we can continue to enjoy the premise in our old age in comics or maybe for role playing but I see no point in shoving a overburdend overtechnical RETCON down the throats of a mainstream audience that we want to like our chosen franchise.

 

Leave it in the 2nd dimension. It's fine there.

Not all of the examples I mentioned are about size shifitng. The comic book characters are not from stories about size shifitng. They are super heroes. The Atom is a long-standing DC comics character often associated with the Justice League. Shrinking Violet was a member of the Legion of Super Heroes in the comic of the same name. Both Wasp and Antman/Giantman are members of the Avengers from Marvel comics. None of those stories are about size shifting. Size shifting is simply a super power they all posess. Therefore, that argument is moot. Why do I want it? Because it fits the character and his alt mode, and allows him to better fulfill his role. It also fits other characters similar to him who have other eclectic alt modes that fit their primary functions but would otherwise be impossible to take on. Without size shifting, you couldn't have a transformer that turned into a Space shuttle without also having a collossal robot mode ten times larger than Megatron. Without it, you couldn't have a devoted scientist whose alt mode greately enhanced his ability to examine his subjects in the most minute detail. Size shifting, in the form of Mass conversion and Parts Compression, allows for a much broader range of alt modes and characters than would otherwise be possible without it. This is also true of other "special abilities" like Skywarp's teleportation ability or Mirage's cloaking if they wanted to use those characters in a sequel. It is just another McGuffin. no better no worse than any other. It fits the character and allows him to take on the most appropriate mode for what he does. It allows them to do Soundwave "right". That is why.

Edited by Tramp
Link to post
Share on other sites
It isn't speculation though. It is established Transformers lore, upon which the movie is based. and yes there is one. You have an iconic character whose sole primary function is to provide communications for the Decepticon forces by transmitting, receiving, intercepting, recording, analizing , and playing back communications and data for others to hear or see, while remaining completely innouculous in alt mode yet fully combat capable in robot mode. Such a character needs mass conversion ability. Therefore, from a story standpoint it becomes necessary or you can't use that character. This is why they chose to save Soundwave for the sequel to begin with.

 

Yes, there is an established lore off which the Transformers is based, but "based on" does not mean "works the same as". Smallville is "based on" the Superman comics, but in the comics, Lex Luthor and Lois Lane didn't spend a ton of time in Kansas watching Clark grow up without glasses on, thus negating his disguise in Metropolis. The rules change because of that.

 

Very true, but hs is still better equipped with that mode because it carries all the equipment he needs to perform his primary function; it also better fits who he is. a regular car would not be very well suited to his primary function now would it?

 

Simple quesiton: What does an ambulance carry that is more suited to repairing robots than anything a normal car would carry?

 

Him being a tow truck would fit in more with your theory. The ambulance, while thematic to his position as "doctor", fits more to my theory that the alt. mode shouldn't be relied on to assist in a Transformer's Primary Function.

 

All of the modes you have described would draw unwanted attention to Soundwave and thus risk giving him away. They also require him to devote more of his internal systems to other things instead of his primary function.

 

He could be a news van - full of electronic broadcasting equipment and not an unusual sight to see. How is that not as good?

 

The comics and cartoons are the primary source of Transformers lore, and thus cannot be ignored.

 

Not ignored, no. But neither can they be relied upon to answer questions about how the rules of the movie world work.

 

The primary identifying factor for Soundwave as a character and his function require him to have an alt mode which is some form of recording/playback device like a portable stereo yet still be a large combat capable officer.

 

In your opinion. I listed my primary identifying factors for Soundwave earlier in our discussion:

 

For Soundwave to be done right, he needs: to be fiercely loyal to Megatron, a man of few words, have some minions pop out from someplace, and be capable of spying. That's it. Period.

Wrong. His function as Communications officer requires him to have a form designed specifically for receiving radio transmissions. He needs to be a communications device of some form, be it a stereo system, a CD player, a computer, etc. Not a vehicle. His place in the Decepticon heirarchy requires that his robot mode be on par with that of the other normal sized Decepticons, not a squirt like Frenzy.

 

You said I was wrong because he needed the alt. mode to perform his function on the team. I've since listed several ways he could perform his function on the team without turning into a radio, and several reasons why he would want it to be that way, but you just keep falling back on this same argument.

 

The difference here is that Soundwave and his abilities have not been addressed in any form in the first movie.

 

I'd say the appearance of a non-mass shifting stereo Transfomer (Frenzy) is very much an addressing of Soundwave in the first movie. Because the sequel wouldn't only have to explain how the technology works, and where it came from, but why Frenzy-as-stereo is no longer sufficient, and another Decepticon stereo must be brought in with this new ability...and why this incredibly cool tech is being used to turn a big robot into a tiny stereo, and isn't being used to do something much more immediately effective to the Decepticon's cause, like make Megatron grow in size, or shrink all the Autobots instead.

 

And, yeah, sorry. "Prove me wrong" was a poor choice of words. "Counter the argument" is more what I meant.

Edited by Hobbes-timus Prime
Link to post
Share on other sites

Or we could have Giant Robots hitting each other.

 

That explanation is exactly why they shouldn't do it. Most of they money they will pull in on this thing will come from people who read less than 20 comics a month and have no Idea what soundwave "done right" is.

 

Soundwave done right would pop 7ft CASSETTES out his chest. Hey maybey they could "Update" Soundwave and have him turn into a VCR!

 

My fingers would fall off trying to counter all the out of context comic character explanations to justify your point so I'm not going to bother. Dude really we don't live in dorktopia (much I as I wish we did) and even if we did mass shiffiting is and allways will be (as much as I, a dork, Like it) a half assed retcon.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Find Transformers on Ebay


×
  • Create New...
Sign Up For The TNI Newsletter And Have The News Delivered To You!


Entertainment News International (ENI) is the #1 popular culture network for adult fans all around the world.
Get the scoop on all the popular comics, games, movies, toys, and more every day!

Contact and Support

Advertising | Submit News | Contact ENI | Privacy Policy

©Entertainment News International - All images, trademarks, logos, video, brands and images used on this website are registered trademarks of their respective companies and owners. All Rights Reserved. Data has been shared for news reporting purposes only. All content sourced by fans, online websites, and or other fan community sources. Entertainment News International is not responsible for reporting errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and or other liablities related to news shared here. We do our best to keep tabs on infringements. If some of your content was shared by accident. Contact us about any infringements right away - CLICK HERE