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Let's have a wee chat about Knock Offs


Vigadeath

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If you broke into my house and stole my TV, the one my groomsmen got me for my wedding that I have yet to even take out of the box? I'd want to let my boys come find ya and thank ya for finally taking it out of the box for me...

 

Ok, lets look at this sideways. You go to a car dealer, and purchase a new car. You can at times have one found in the color you want right? Or if you want a 6 disc CD changer installed they can do that yea? Well for the TF's we could not do that until the KO makers did it for them?

 

Say you wear out the tires, do you have to go get a new car? NOPE, you just order a new part. Well if the dealer doesn't have that part, you could fall back on a 'after market' part made by a secondary company and get your car fixed.

 

That's the beauty of KO's, if used properly, they can enhance your collection. I just this past weekend at NJCC the 3rd brainmaster car to make road ceaser...BUT, my set is the UK versions, minus the combiner parts. So what I did was buy a KO set, with the car's being totally CRAP, minus even the brain master ability, JUST for the kibble to make the massively lousy Road Ceaser combiner.

 

I have done ths a few times in the past, like for the Brave lines, both the 7 changer and my Land Bison sets are beefed up with KO weapons on original toys. Even my Pre Transformers Black Perceptor is a originl toy, with KO weapons and scope (which actualy has better magnification than the real scope).

 

I just this morning opened my Protector Armor, I paid $100 for it and it's great. I don't have a hotrod handy to wear the armor so I put it on a KO Shattered Glass Hotrod. The arms fall off if I am not too careful, but it's still cool! Would I get another set of armor to make a custom suit to fit say the blue sideburn collectors club toy for $100? Hells no! But if they make KO for say $40 I can custom paint, HELLS YEA!

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+ How would you feel if I broke into your house and stole your TV, but when I sold it I informed my customers that I'm not an authorised dealer and that the product comes from an unlicensed source? Or if I just outrightly said, "Ppssst? Wanna buy a stolen TV real cheap?" -- would that make my crime any more noble by informing my customers that the product is stolen, thus giving them consumer choice?

 

 

 

 

First, if you broke into my house and TRIED to steal my TV...You'd get shot. Period. End of story.

 

This is a very dumb argument to make. It's more like if you stood outside my house and built a TV with your own supplies that looked exactly like mine and tried to sell that as an unauthorized dealer. That's more like it. Nobody is going into Hasbro and stealing their crap. Most KO's are made from reverse engineering the official figures, difference is they've gotten a lot better at it.

 

For that, I don't care. The only way it should or does cross any lines is if they're packaged and passed off as being original. Otherwise, I JUST DON'T GIVE A CRAP! Stick up for what? A money grubbing corporation that doesn't give a crap about anything but money? Hell no, screw them! Rest assured, Hasbro's dealings make KO manufacturers look like cub scouts.

 

 

With that said, the only thing nutty to me is that sometimes there have been KO's out even before the official product hits the market. Ideally I think that perhaps it's not quite as much of an issue when the KO figure is one that's out of production, but I still don't really care. They never will be a threat to anyone. The money KO makers make is pennies compared to Hasbro/Takara.

 

At their best they are nice, cheaper alternatives.

 

At worst they present more of a challenge to collectors to be able to keep up with the differences.

 

It's pointless to bring up moral issues or anything of the sort. WE'VE ALL done, and will do worse things.

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Backfire: I was only talking about counterfeits, not 3rd party items. Not that I buy them either, but they're not counterfeits (although I know there are counterfeits of 3rd party items).

 

First, if you broke into my house and TRIED to steal my TV...You'd get shot. Period. End of story.

 

This is a very dumb argument to make. It's more like if you stood outside my house and built a TV with your own supplies that looked exactly like mine and tried to sell that as an unauthorized dealer. That's more like it. Nobody is going into Hasbro and stealing their crap. Most KO's are made from reverse engineering the official figures, difference is they've gotten a lot better at it.

I was providing an analogy. Counterfeiters are stealing Hasbro's property. They're stealing their intellectual property. Not all property is tangible... original thoughts and ideas are people's property too. That's why plagiarism is considered a serious offence in academic institutions, and authors are required to provide references and bibliographies in essays, reports, publications etc.

 

For that, I don't care. The only way it should or does cross any lines is if they're packaged and passed off as being original. Otherwise, I JUST DON'T GIVE A CRAP!

These "high end" KOs are being packaged and passed off as originals! There maybe some sellers who try to indicate that these may not be entirely legit, although they often stop short from actually outright saying so with ambiguous terms like "Chinese reissue" (what does that mean? There _ARE_ legit Chinese reissues out there! Just because a reissue comes from China doesn't necessarily mean it's illegitimate).

 

A better thing for sellers to do is to be completely upfront and honest with customers. For example, the Japanese collectable toy store chain Mandarake labels their KOs with stickers that says 海賊版 ("Knockoff") -- clearly telling customers that this is a fake, thus giving them an informed choice. There's NO ambiguity about it by saying something vague like "Chinese version". In fact, I find that in Japan "Chinese version" means third party unlicensed toys, but those aren't counterfeits (although there are counterfeits of them, but that's a different kettle of Sharkticons).

 

But this is all up to the discretion of the _sellers_. As far as the KO makers are concerned, they make counterfeit toys in counterfeit packaging, with nothing that explicitly tells customers that this is a counterfeit toy. As I said before, even HasTak will label their reissues to let people know it's not an original G1 toy, e.g. Hasbro's "Commemorative Series" logo, or TakaraTOMY's "Encore Reissue" logo etc.; or in some cases, original non-G1 style packaging, like some of the book-box style packaging. There's NO way anyone would mistake those toys as being original G1s.

 

I've known plenty of people, especially new collectors who aren't as savvy, who've been burnt by buying counterfeit toys in the belief that they were legit. If someone knowingly buys a fake, then okay... that's one thing. But there are heaps of folks who are being tricked into parting with their hard-earned cash and buying fake toys thinking that they're legit... and I'm sure you'd agree that's not right. KO makers need to take some responsibility and put something on the packaging that explicitly disclaims these toys as being fakes. Because not every seller is going to be honest.

 

I've been to collector fairs where I've seen KOs on sale, and the seller has sworn till he's blue in the fact that the toys he's selling are legit. And I've seen some more casual collectors pick up these toys and considering buying them... and then I whisper to them, "You know that's fake?" and often their shocked reply is, "No! Oh my God..." then quickly put the toy down and move away from that dealer's table.

 

Stick up for what? A money grubbing corporation that doesn't give a crap about anything but money? Hell no, screw them! Rest assured, Hasbro's dealings make KO manufacturers look like cub scouts.

 

With that said, the only thing nutty to me is that sometimes there have been KO's out even before the official product hits the market. Ideally I think that perhaps it's not quite as much of an issue when the KO figure is one that's out of production, but I still don't really care. They never will be a threat to anyone. The money KO makers make is pennies compared to Hasbro/Takara.

Okay... maybe you don't care about Hasbro (in which case, perhaps you should boycott all their products)... but what about all our fellow collectors who get deceived and ripped off by counterfeits? And sometimes even seasoned collectors get fooled too. I know a guy who bought a G1 Nosecone toy thinking it was real, only later to discover it was fake. A friend of mine bought a G1 Ratbat thinking it was real, then found out it was fake.

 

At their best they are nice, cheaper alternatives.

Really? Do you remember how much Grimlock sold for in the 1980s? My guess would be maybe around the $20-30 mark (it was in 1985, so memory's a bit rusty). Now that's Australian prices... so maybe half that for North America ($10-15?). Now check this out. It's a fake G1 Grimlock MISB. The seller has NOT said that this toy is a fake... it does say "reissue," but that doesn't mean it's a fake because obviously there are many legit reissues, and Grimlock has been legitimately reissued before. So unless someone is very attentive/knowledgeable, it's possible that they might get burnt thinking that this is a real bargain. But look at the current bid... US$27.12! :o That's comparable to what I paid for my original G1 Grimlock - possibly even more expensive... and it's a FAKE.

 

Why the frell would I pay this price for a fake when the original sold for cheaper?!??!?!?!?

 

At worst they present more of a challenge to collectors to be able to keep up with the differences.

Please tell me you're not saying that deceiving consumers is justifiable because it "provides a challenge." :/

 

It's pointless to bring up moral issues or anything of the sort. WE'VE ALL done, and will do worse things.

I don't buy KOs.

I don't buy third parties.

I don't buy any TF that's not officially authorised by HasTak.

 

I personally take great pride in the fact that my collection is legit and untainted by any purchases of unlicensed toys.

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The high end KOs are just companies taking advantage of an ignorant market. There wasn't a time before the Chinese KO Cylonus came to light that it was really known that a real TF could be a KO. Before that there were usually something extremely telling about a KO, such as the wrong colors, different packaging, whatever. Those types of KOs still exist! The counterfeits are a big problem but only if they go for big amounts.

 

Its obviously false that they aren't reissues, they are straight up copies. Unfortunately, Hasbro isn't going to do much against them because they aren't cutting into their bottom line. Hasbro isn't selling G1 toys right now, so only Tomy would be concerned. And Hasbro doesn't care about the secondary market.

 

I don't care about KOs all that much. I've definately got some (and now third party TFs too) so I guess I've gone soft.

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@ Goktimus Prime, are you really comparing a KO G1 Grimlock to it's price back in the day? A real G1 MiB Grimlock would, I imagine be rather expensive so even the KOs of the Dinobots that are out there will go for a good amount. Hell, I've seen KO Starsabers and Deathsaurus' going for around the £100 mark!

 

Personally I think that if someone bought a "G1 MiB Swoop for only £40!" then they're an idiot. Yes not everyone is savvy about prices but seriously? Or the CHMS Punch/Counterpunch for only £35 when it cost around £100 from TFCC? Really? Someone's going to think that's legit? Then they deserve to be taken advantage of.

 

At the end of the day KOs can no longer be clumped together and 3rd parties more so! Yes "Chinese reissue" has some legitimacy but at no point has there been a Chinese reissue of the Classic Seekers. As has been said, collecting hobbies are a luxury and if you're going to partake of that hobby then you need to know your stuff or suffer from your own idiocy. CHMS are seeing a market gap and offering up versions of exclusives that are difficult to get, if someone thinks they're real then well, that's their fault. I know why 3rd party companies or TFCC have high prices and small runs but I also think it's bull and that FP could sell City Commander at £50 a pop and sell plenty more. Plastic moulds cost a lot but after that the price plummets. They have the mould so only making small runs is their choice, not something as hindered by cost as many would think. Hell, TFCC are probably given the moulds by Hasbro, at a cost I'm sure, and all they do for the most part is change the colours! So the high costs they charge are utter rubbish! I'll gladly give them the two fingered salute and take a KO of their exclusives.

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Backfire: I was only talking about counterfeits, not 3rd party items. Not that I buy them either, but they're not counterfeits (although I know there are counterfeits of 3rd party items).

 

First, if you broke into my house and TRIED to steal my TV...You'd get shot. Period. End of story.

 

This is a very dumb argument to make. It's more like if you stood outside my house and built a TV with your own supplies that looked exactly like mine and tried to sell that as an unauthorized dealer. That's more like it. Nobody is going into Hasbro and stealing their crap. Most KO's are made from reverse engineering the official figures, difference is they've gotten a lot better at it.

I was providing an analogy. Counterfeiters are stealing Hasbro's property. They're stealing their intellectual property. Not all property is tangible... original thoughts and ideas are people's property too. That's why plagiarism is considered a serious offence in academic institutions, and authors are required to provide references and bibliographies in essays, reports, publications etc.

 

For that, I don't care. The only way it should or does cross any lines is if they're packaged and passed off as being original. Otherwise, I JUST DON'T GIVE A CRAP!

These "high end" KOs are being packaged and passed off as originals! There maybe some sellers who try to indicate that these may not be entirely legit, although they often stop short from actually outright saying so with ambiguous terms like "Chinese reissue" (what does that mean? There _ARE_ legit Chinese reissues out there! Just because a reissue comes from China doesn't necessarily mean it's illegitimate).

 

A better thing for sellers to do is to be completely upfront and honest with customers. For example, the Japanese collectable toy store chain Mandarake labels their KOs with stickers that says 海賊版 ("Knockoff") -- clearly telling customers that this is a fake, thus giving them an informed choice. There's NO ambiguity about it by saying something vague like "Chinese version". In fact, I find that in Japan "Chinese version" means third party unlicensed toys, but those aren't counterfeits (although there are counterfeits of them, but that's a different kettle of Sharkticons).

 

But this is all up to the discretion of the _sellers_. As far as the KO makers are concerned, they make counterfeit toys in counterfeit packaging, with nothing that explicitly tells customers that this is a counterfeit toy. As I said before, even HasTak will label their reissues to let people know it's not an original G1 toy, e.g. Hasbro's "Commemorative Series" logo, or TakaraTOMY's "Encore Reissue" logo etc.; or in some cases, original non-G1 style packaging, like some of the book-box style packaging. There's NO way anyone would mistake those toys as being original G1s.

 

I've known plenty of people, especially new collectors who aren't as savvy, who've been burnt by buying counterfeit toys in the belief that they were legit. If someone knowingly buys a fake, then okay... that's one thing. But there are heaps of folks who are being tricked into parting with their hard-earned cash and buying fake toys thinking that they're legit... and I'm sure you'd agree that's not right. KO makers need to take some responsibility and put something on the packaging that explicitly disclaims these toys as being fakes. Because not every seller is going to be honest.

 

I've been to collector fairs where I've seen KOs on sale, and the seller has sworn till he's blue in the fact that the toys he's selling are legit. And I've seen some more casual collectors pick up these toys and considering buying them... and then I whisper to them, "You know that's fake?" and often their shocked reply is, "No! Oh my God..." then quickly put the toy down and move away from that dealer's table.

 

Stick up for what? A money grubbing corporation that doesn't give a crap about anything but money? Hell no, screw them! Rest assured, Hasbro's dealings make KO manufacturers look like cub scouts.

 

With that said, the only thing nutty to me is that sometimes there have been KO's out even before the official product hits the market. Ideally I think that perhaps it's not quite as much of an issue when the KO figure is one that's out of production, but I still don't really care. They never will be a threat to anyone. The money KO makers make is pennies compared to Hasbro/Takara.

Okay... maybe you don't care about Hasbro (in which case, perhaps you should boycott all their products)... but what about all our fellow collectors who get deceived and ripped off by counterfeits? And sometimes even seasoned collectors get fooled too. I know a guy who bought a G1 Nosecone toy thinking it was real, only later to discover it was fake. A friend of mine bought a G1 Ratbat thinking it was real, then found out it was fake.

 

At their best they are nice, cheaper alternatives.

Really? Do you remember how much Grimlock sold for in the 1980s? My guess would be maybe around the $20-30 mark (it was in 1985, so memory's a bit rusty). Now that's Australian prices... so maybe half that for North America ($10-15?). Now check this out. It's a fake G1 Grimlock MISB. The seller has NOT said that this toy is a fake... it does say "reissue," but that doesn't mean it's a fake because obviously there are many legit reissues, and Grimlock has been legitimately reissued before. So unless someone is very attentive/knowledgeable, it's possible that they might get burnt thinking that this is a real bargain. But look at the current bid... US$27.12! :o That's comparable to what I paid for my original G1 Grimlock - possibly even more expensive... and it's a FAKE.

 

Why the frell would I pay this price for a fake when the original sold for cheaper?!??!?!?!?

 

At worst they present more of a challenge to collectors to be able to keep up with the differences.

Please tell me you're not saying that deceiving consumers is justifiable because it "provides a challenge." :/

 

It's pointless to bring up moral issues or anything of the sort. WE'VE ALL done, and will do worse things.

I don't buy KOs.

I don't buy third parties.

I don't buy any TF that's not officially authorised by HasTak.

 

I personally take great pride in the fact that my collection is legit and untainted by any purchases of unlicensed toys.

I'm glad you're proud your collection is untainted. I personally enjoy my third party Transformers. Take for example Knight Morpher Commander. This is an excellent toy and if not for a third party company, we'd never have a Hearts of Steel Optimus Prime. Until Hasbro and Takara get up off their butts and give us some cool editions, then I'll support third party companies. I'm not saying third party companies are right or wrong, but I do love the fact that they put out some versions even better than what Hasbro and Takara put out.

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Backfire: I was only talking about counterfeits, not 3rd party items. Not that I buy them either, but they're not counterfeits (although I know there are counterfeits of 3rd party items).

 

Ah HAAAA!!!! Now they DO make KO 3rd Party toys don't they? Hmmmm??? Back to the front, I bought the PE Reflector original set for $100 or so, and I love it, except it's too dang small. So THEN they came out with the over sized shampoo bottle plastic KO versions and I LOVE that too, especially swapping parts from 2 sets to get one nice looking one, with out painting...

 

So.... Hasbro banned 3rd party toys, KO's and KO's of third party toys from Botcon.

 

Which brings me to my next tidbit of nonsense... Estrela, Brazilian G1 Transformers. How'd you feel about those? Cheaper, licensed reproductions of G1 Transfomers??? Kinda KO'ed but NOT... I have a couple variations of Bumper from Brazil that I am quite happy with. Oh wait, he's not even officially a Transformer... NOW WHAT?!?!?!

 

I stand in awe of my shelf of over a dozen variations of the classics seeker jets, including some customs I have created to keep the trio squads alive. Alas I lack the UK G2 Botcon Thundercracker and the club exclusive Ranjet... will I pay $80+ for each of those??? Or wait for the KO's to arise???

 

In concusion. If it supports my fanatical collecting frenzy, I am all for it. Always buy original licensed products first. If there exists an interesting variant or bit I need to keep me happy, for a reasonable price, I'm gonna get it.

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Always buy original licensed products first. If there exists an interesting variant or bit I need to keep me happy, for a reasonable price, I'm gonna get it.

 

 

:agree

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There is alot of really neat bootlegs out there. For example, the g1 overlord with starsaber head and shoulders, or the rainbow scorponok, or the robocop fort max bootleg. I love quarky bootlegs like this, because they would never be made officially. Not to mention the multitude of chogokin bootlegs on ebay like lionbot, gotbot, godtron. Are they as good as the originals? No, but they are a way for someone to get a hold of the mold and play with it... yes play with it. If it breaks then, ehh, just a bootleg. Am I right?

 

Basically the only thing bootlegs do, especially if the mold is out of production, is give a swift kick to the nuts of the scalpers on ebay who got a figure graded and suddenly thought it was made out diamond encrusted gold or something.

 

As far as the CHMS bootlegs, I honestly don't see a issue with them. First of all they are made of out-of-production molds, and most of them are deco's hasbro has expressly stated they wont do. Cough Sunstorm Cough. As far as the bootlegs of the club exclusives... these don't come with box's like the club makes. So just don't buy any cheap club exclusives without box's, or at least ask the seller to send you a pic of the copyright stamp before bidding.

 

 

Remember kids, if its not mentioned in the listing pictures or description, then feel free to contact the seller BEFORE the listing ends.

 

 

 

I mean, there is nothing wrong with wanting to buy originals, but scalpers really abuse the popularity of transformers to score a profit. That's just insane that a g1 overlord with heavy yellowing went for over $1000.

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