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Transformer Consumer Ethics


Goktimus Prime

Transformer Consumer Ethics 1  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your policy on unlicensed toys?

    • I don't buy unlicensed toys
    • I buy 3rd Party items, but I don't buy counterfeits
    • I buy counterfeits, but I don't buy 3rd Party items
      0
    • I only buy 3rd party accessories, but not 3rd party figures
    • Ethics?! As long as my wants are met I don't care who makes my toys (I have no compunction against unlicensed toys)
    • Other (please specify)


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I have to go with "other". I don't purchase 3rd party products but have nothing against either those who make them or those who buy them. The cost/benefit ratio is just too far off for me.

As for KOs, I wouldn't buy one of a current Hasbro product but have no problem buying KOs based on older product. I picked up a KO Defensor set and a KO Devastator set for $8 each at Big Lots last year and I'm glad I did. The reason I have no problem this? 1) It doesn't affect my desire to purchase a 1980s original on the secondary market in the slightest, 2) I don't buy reissues. I have no use for them, but if I did I'd be just as likely to buy one if I had a KO of the same figure, and 3) it gives my boys a chance to play with a toy remarkably similar to one I played with as a kid, which for some reason they really get a kick out of. All without the risk of destroying a treasured 1980s original.

I don't consider them a legitimate part of my collection, but I certainly enjoy playing with them.

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There is a sticky point with the figures that are over 20 years old...Has/Tak might not have legal grounds to fight KO's or reproductions. I'm not sure what the particulars of the laws are, but after so long, any copyrights, trademarks, or whatever are forfeit if Has/Tak doesn't renew them. I'm not saying this is the case, but does anyone really know for sure before these issues get out of hand? Obviously, the Transformers brand name and character names are off limits, but for the rest it could still be fair game.

 

If I invent something I get patented and market, then let the patent run out...legally anyone can make and market my invention. Same thing here.

 

This could be why there isn't a lot of legal fights being put up over these. Has/Tak would probably spend more time and money fighting this cases than it's worth.

 

 

 

Let's get something straight here, I don't think ANYONE who collects 3rd party, KO's or whatever would EVER pass up the chance to add the legitimate thing to their collections if they ever got made. If I buy a repro Sunstreaker and Has/Tak miraculously manages to come up with a workable mold to make their own, I would still buy it in a heartbeat. I honestly don't think any collector would be any different. So to say these things take any money away, or the potential to make money away from Has/Tak is silly. It wouldn't happen.

 

 

 

If people want to have issues with companies making them...whatever. But to somehow judge people who buy them is worse than buying them themselves. A few replies here sound like people are doing just that. It's nobody's place to judge what other people choose to spend their money on when we're talking about toys!

 

As far as I'm concerned, this is NOT a matter of any kind of ethics, morals or anything along those lines. These are toys and that argument is simply a crutch for people to convince themselves to not buy them. Either that or it's simply that they resent people taking cheaper ways out when they put out all the money for the originals. Also, fear that the KO's or reproductions will hurt the value of their collections.

 

Even the good reproductions have not made a dent on the value of the real thing. I'm not condoning people who would sell them as legitimate, that's another issue entirely that I'm not going to get into. This question in the topic is about buying not selling. If I want to buy a KO, reproduction or 3rd party figure then I will.

 

You know what? The sun will still rise and set, water will still be wet, and the sky will still be blue!

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I have to go with "other". I don't purchase 3rd party products but have nothing against either those who make them or those who buy them. The cost/benefit ratio is just too far off for me.

As for KOs, I wouldn't buy one of a current Hasbro product but have no problem buying KOs based on older product. I picked up a KO Defensor set and a KO Devastator set for $8 each at Big Lots last year and I'm glad I did. The reason I have no problem this? 1) It doesn't affect my desire to purchase a 1980s original on the secondary market in the slightest, 2) I don't buy reissues. I have no use for them, but if I did I'd be just as likely to buy one if I had a KO of the same figure,

It doesn't affect me all that much either (although you appear to be even more unaffected than me since I do collect reissues and you don't) because I don't really collect G1. I like to collect reissues because it allows me to "retire" my original G1 toy as a display piece and lets me play around with the reissue. :) But ultimately, I'm not hugely upset if a G1 toy isn't reissued because I already have that toy. I would like (love) for certain G1 toys to be reissued, but it's not a huge tragedy for me if it's not.

 

But as much as I would be relatively unaffected, I would personally feel guilty if I bought a counterfeit, knowing that I'm supporting people who are deceiving other people and taking their money. I'm also a fan of pluralism - the idea of treating others as you would like to be treated - I would hate for someone else to support someone else in defrauding me out of my money, so I would not want to knowingly do it to someone else. I have a friend who once purchased what he thought was a legit G1 Ratbat off eBay. He later found out it was a fake. He was furious, and I was pretty upset too knowing that my friend had been conned out of his money. :( I'm not sure if I'd give my daughter a fake toy... that would raise all kinds of ethical questions that I would have to ask myself - and, when she's old enough, she may ask of me too. That and I don't want to give my daughter a fake toy... to me that would be like... dirty. She deserves better than that IMO.

 

3) it gives my boys a chance to play with a toy remarkably similar to one I played with as a kid, which for some reason they really get a kick out of. All without the risk of destroying a treasured 1980s original.

I'm surprised that they'd even be interested in the old blocky, unarticulated, diminutive, fragile and generally inferior G1 toys compared to what they have today. Don't get me wrong, I think G1 toys are, for the most part, very well engineered for its time. But I know this because I was there when they came out. If I saw a toy that came out before my time, I might appreciate it, but I don't think I would enjoy playing with it. <shrug>

 

Atm my daughter only plays with my Transformer plushies and PlaySkool Transformers. Occasionally I'll let her play with a Legends figure or a more recent toy under my supervision only. She's only ever allowed in my TF room with my supervision (this is also a legal requirement because of NSW laws regarding Megatron) - but even then, 98% of the time she prefers to play with the PlaySkool Transformers and she usually takes little interest in other TF toys. :) My daughter knows that she can't even touch any of my non-PlaySkool Transformers without permission. But if she so much as accidentally touches a non-PS Transformer, she looks at me and starts crying because she knows that's against the rules. And it's not like I scold her or anything... it's just an occasional nudge and no harm's done, but she knows that touching my non-PS TFs is a no-no. She likes to walk up and point at them, but she won't ever intentionally touch them. Maybe because she's a girl?

 

I used to work with a colleague who has two sons, and her rule with them was 'Never play with a toy that's older than you are.' :) I like this rule, and it's something I plan on teaching my daughter - with the exception of PlaySkool TFs. :D You know what's really hard to find? Baby/infant sized Transformers clothes!! So freakin' hard to find!

 

I don't consider them a legitimate part of my collection, but I certainly enjoy playing with them.

That's how I see reissues, only of course I do consider them a legitimate part of my collection. :)

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There is a sticky point with the figures that are over 20 years old...Has/Tak might not have legal grounds to fight KO's or reproductions. I'm not sure what the particulars of the laws are, but after so long, any copyrights, trademarks, or whatever are forfeit if Has/Tak doesn't renew them. I'm not saying this is the case, but does anyone really know for sure before these issues get out of hand? Obviously, the Transformers brand name and character names are off limits, but for the rest it could still be fair game.

 

If I invent something I get patented and market, then let the patent run out...legally anyone can make and market my invention. Same thing here.

 

This could be why there isn't a lot of legal fights being put up over these. Has/Tak would probably spend more time and money fighting this cases than it's worth.

Hasbro maintains its trademark for a lot of characters and their likenesses by reusing them in current lines. That's why EVERY freakin' Transformers series has an Optimus and a Megatron in it etc. -- it's to maintain the trademark. Although in the case of Optimus, Megatron and Bumblebee, it's extreme overkill!

 

I'm not sure if this alone can maintain their patent over a mould though.

 

Let's get something straight here, I don't think ANYONE who collects 3rd party, KO's or whatever would EVER pass up the chance to add the legitimate thing to their collections if they ever got made. If I buy a repro Sunstreaker and Has/Tak miraculously manages to come up with a workable mold to make their own, I would still buy it in a heartbeat. I honestly don't think any collector would be any different. So to say these things take any money away, or the potential to make money away from Has/Tak is silly. It wouldn't happen.

I think in terms of most more serious collectors, which I think most of us here are, that may be true. But there are a lot more casual collectors and people who really aren't Transformer collectors but occasionally like to buy Transformer toys, who wouldn't be so dedicated as to buy a KO and a reissue if it came out. I mean, even on this board weren't there some people debating over whether to get a KO G1 Devastator now or wait for the Encore reissue? I mean, if what you're saying is true, then these discussions shouldn't exist... if people wanted to get get the KO now and buy the Encore later, then why make a thread asking which they should do? I think such questions mean that there are some people who are considering buying either one or the other, but not both.

 

Maybe this should be the topic of another poll. :)

 

If people want to have issues with companies making them...whatever. But to somehow judge people who buy them is worse than buying them themselves. A few replies here sound like people are doing just that. It's nobody's place to judge what other people choose to spend their money on when we're talking about toys!

Well I certainly never said that.

 

Having a strong objection against something is entirely different from judging people who partake in it. For example, I have a strong objection against tobacco smoking - I think it's stupid... but I don't hate smokers and judge them as ethically or morally depraved people for doing so. I have quite a few friends and relatives who smoke. I hate their habit, but I don't hate them. And yes, I even have friends who buy 3rd party items and knock offs!

 

As far as I'm concerned, this is NOT a matter of any kind of ethics, morals or anything along those lines. These are toys and that argument is simply a crutch for people to convince themselves to not buy them. Either that or it's simply that they resent people taking cheaper ways out when they put out all the money for the originals. Also, fear that the KO's or reproductions will hurt the value of their collections.

I can relate to that first point - it is part of my rationale for why I don't buy unlicensed toys. But I can't relate to the other points. Cheaper ways? I paid original retail prices for my MISP G1 toys. Do KOs sell for original retail prices, or are they just cheap compared to the ridiculously inflated aftermarket prices for G1 toys today? Far that they'll hurt the value of my collection? I don't collect toys as "investment" (I think that's rather silly actually, if you want to invest, go buy shares or blue chips)... I buy them because I like to play with them.

 

The main way it would detrimentally affect me is in terms of blocking potential future reissues. As I said before, Takara has gone on record saying that they don't want to compete with bootleggers.

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So the implication then is that somehow I love or value my child less because I let him play with a KO Devastator but your child has a nervous breakdown at the slightest accidental touch of your collection and you're father of the year.

You've said some really ignorant things in these forums but you've managed to top yourself yet again. Congrats.

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I never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth and only respond to what I've EXPLICITLY stated.

 

I said:

"I'm not sure if I'd give my daughter a fake toy..."

This doesn't mean you can't give you can't give your kids fake toys. I never said that. I ONLY said that I would feel unsure about giving MY daughter a fake toy. Note that I NEVER said that I would feel unsure about _other_ people giving their children fake toys. I was only talking about my own standards for my own child -- I'm not talking about YOUR standards for YOUR children. I'm not telling you how to parent your children.

 

I said:

"that would raise all kinds of ethical questions that I would have to ask myself - and, when she's old enough, she may ask of me too."

Because I intend to pass on my values to my child - just as I'm sure you plan on passing your values to your children. And giving my child a fake toy, in light of my ethical values as a toy enthusiast, would create an ethical dilemma; one that she would be absolutely justified to question me on when she's old enough to process these kinds of thoughts. You may have different ethical values from me which you may intend to pass onto your children... that's fine.

 

I said:

"That and I don't want to give my daughter a fake toy... to me that would be like... dirty. She deserves better than that IMO."

IMO = In My Opinion <--- it's just an opinion. Not a fact. You may disagree with my opinion, I have no problem with that whatsoever.

 

I'm just voicing MY opinions and MY values _for_myself_... there's no need to feel threatened by this. I never ever ever said that your child is less loved or valued because you let him play with KO Devastator. Unless someone's doing something that may be harmful to a child, then I don't believe anyone else has a right to tell someone how to raise their kid. If you enjoy letting your son play with KO Devastator and your son enjoys playing with KO Devastator, then hey... good for you. It's never something I would ever do for my child, but that's NOT to say that you shouldn't do it for your child.

 

I mean, I personally intend on sending my daughter to a public school - I believe in supporting public education over private education. But if you'd rather send your child to a private school, then hey -- good for you. It's not something I would do for my child, and I have strong reasons for this, but that's not to say that I don't think you should or shouldn't do it for your child.

 

I hope that's cleared things up and sorry for any misunderstanding.

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There is a sticky point with the figures that are over 20 years old...Has/Tak might not have legal grounds to fight KO's or reproductions. I'm not sure what the particulars of the laws are, but after so long, any copyrights, trademarks, or whatever are forfeit if Has/Tak doesn't renew them. I'm not saying this is the case, but does anyone really know for sure before these issues get out of hand? Obviously, the Transformers brand name and character names are off limits, but for the rest it could still be fair game.

 

If I invent something I get patented and market, then let the patent run out...legally anyone can make and market my invention. Same thing here.

 

This could be why there isn't a lot of legal fights being put up over these. Has/Tak would probably spend more time and money fighting this cases than it's worth.

Hasbro maintains its trademark for a lot of characters and their likenesses by reusing them in current lines. That's why EVERY freakin' Transformers series has an Optimus and a Megatron in it etc. -- it's to maintain the trademark. Although in the case of Optimus, Megatron and Bumblebee, it's extreme overkill!

 

I'm not sure if this alone can maintain their patent over a mould though.

 

Let's get something straight here, I don't think ANYONE who collects 3rd party, KO's or whatever would EVER pass up the chance to add the legitimate thing to their collections if they ever got made. If I buy a repro Sunstreaker and Has/Tak miraculously manages to come up with a workable mold to make their own, I would still buy it in a heartbeat. I honestly don't think any collector would be any different. So to say these things take any money away, or the potential to make money away from Has/Tak is silly. It wouldn't happen.

I think in terms of most more serious collectors, which I think most of us here are, that may be true. But there are a lot more casual collectors and people who really aren't Transformer collectors but occasionally like to buy Transformer toys, who wouldn't be so dedicated as to buy a KO and a reissue if it came out. I mean, even on this board weren't there some people debating over whether to get a KO G1 Devastator now or wait for the Encore reissue? I mean, if what you're saying is true, then these discussions shouldn't exist... if people wanted to get get the KO now and buy the Encore later, then why make a thread asking which they should do? I think such questions mean that there are some people who are considering buying either one or the other, but not both.

 

Maybe this should be the topic of another poll. :)

 

If people want to have issues with companies making them...whatever. But to somehow judge people who buy them is worse than buying them themselves. A few replies here sound like people are doing just that. It's nobody's place to judge what other people choose to spend their money on when we're talking about toys!

Well I certainly never said that.

 

Having a strong objection against something is entirely different from judging people who partake in it. For example, I have a strong objection against tobacco smoking - I think it's stupid... but I don't hate smokers and judge them as ethically or morally depraved people for doing so. I have quite a few friends and relatives who smoke. I hate their habit, but I don't hate them. And yes, I even have friends who buy 3rd party items and knock offs!

 

As far as I'm concerned, this is NOT a matter of any kind of ethics, morals or anything along those lines. These are toys and that argument is simply a crutch for people to convince themselves to not buy them. Either that or it's simply that they resent people taking cheaper ways out when they put out all the money for the originals. Also, fear that the KO's or reproductions will hurt the value of their collections.

I can relate to that first point - it is part of my rationale for why I don't buy unlicensed toys. But I can't relate to the other points. Cheaper ways? I paid original retail prices for my MISP G1 toys. Do KOs sell for original retail prices, or are they just cheap compared to the ridiculously inflated aftermarket prices for G1 toys today? Far that they'll hurt the value of my collection? I don't collect toys as "investment" (I think that's rather silly actually, if you want to invest, go buy shares or blue chips)... I buy them because I like to play with them.

 

The main way it would detrimentally affect me is in terms of blocking potential future reissues. As I said before, Takara has gone on record saying that they don't want to compete with bootleggers.

 

 

 

We're both confused on the same point. Whether or not the original molds are protected under the copyright laws. Perhaps here they are, but in the countries the KO's are produced they are not. Hasbro's only real action has been to ask domestic retailers not to carry them. Most simply comply.

 

I'm also not worried about people who don't know any better that gets duped by them. Live and learn! I haven't bought repros because of the prices. But to be fair, they are even or better than the Takara prices on reissues and a lot of them just as good. So if value doesn't matter to the collector, then it shouldn't matter. If it does matter, then be more careful! KO's however aren't nearly as difficult to spot because they tend to be a lot more cheap and the majority go color crazy on them. Most of those also tend to be amazingly cheap which is why a lot of people enjoy them. I think they serve as good options for those who don't want to mess around with their vintage figures too much, but want a version of them they can handle more and not worry.

 

Takara is full of it. If they have the molds to make them, they will reissue whatever figures that will make them money. Encore Devastator being proof of that. It's funny how they'll take advantage of the market to gouge the hell out the prices but we're going to argue about what KO's cost them. Please!

 

There were no KO's of Predaking when he was first reissued and they still charged over $150 for it. Not to mention double (or more) the price of Masterpiece figures AND doubling the price on Hasbro leader figures and calling it a masterpiece! That's a joke!

 

These companies don't give a crap about us, just our money! Don't waste the time or energy worrying about this stuff!

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To me, Knock offs are not fake toys, they are toys, or whatever they are copying. To say they are fake toys because they are knockoffs is stupid, especially when they have a place in a collection. Not everyone can afford Metrotitan or Guard City. So that knockoffs take their place on the shelf. Also, I have yet to ever buy a Knock off that was stated to be the real deal. Not a single one, was ever declared the real deal, Even Road Caesar and Metrotitan, when I bought them I knowingly bought knock offs. The dealer even told me they were. And you can touch and play with them, THUS making them real toys

 

Just like 3rd Party products, Any third party Product I have bought, has never been made or is a copy of an updated figure. Hasbro and Takara have never made Protector Armor, City Commander Armor, HOS Optimus Prime,or a Springer that is an updated version and not a repaint of another toys that is nothing like his G1 Counterpart, so thus I bought Warbot Defender and I use him as my Classicverse Springer

 

As far as letting my kids play with my Transformers? I allow my 4 year old and 2 year old to play with them, The only ones they are are not allowed to play with are my expensive ones. And they know that. I also buy them Transformers. My daughter Loves her Animated Arcee and I got her the knock off Animated Chromia and Paradron Medic also so she can have fun, My son? he loves his Cybertron Supreme Starscream and his Universe Onslaught, and neither my 4 year old, my 2 year old or my 1 year old do not freak out when they accidentally touch one of my Transformers or when they bang on the wall and one of my Transformers falls down off the shelf. Cause to me, my kids are more important then my Transformers. Last year I had to replace my Primus, cause he fell down and hit my son on his head and broke in half. He said he was sorry and I told it was ok, and I was more concerned about him. Then the Transformer.

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I buy 3rd party accessories and at least one original design figure, but not the deluxe knockoffs like Faith Leader. If there's some new engineering involved and it's not a direct copy of a HasTak toy design, then I'm okay with it. I have City Commander, Protector, the G3 trailer and Warbot Defender. The only one that's a little dubious to me is Defender, since, despite the new engineering, it's a stand-alone toy obviously meant to be Springer. But it's not an exact replica, and it's a new design. Plus if Hasbro did a proper triple-changing Springer in the next run of Generations, I'd get it. Protector I got as a cheaper alternative at BC 2010 to picking up a more expensive, incomplete real G1 Springer. Why spend $150 on a weaponless and therefore rotorless Springer when I could get a fully functional appoximation for $90? So naturally, if Hasbro did their own update as a deluxe or Voyager, I'd be all over it, and Protector would be a cool novelty at that point. Given the choice between a 3rd party version and a Hasbro version, I'll take the "real" one. I have no interest in Sonicron because I have Music Label Soundblaster, which was less money, more "Geewun accurate", and is a functional (if basic) MP3 player to boot! If he were compatible with Recordicons, he'd be perfect!

 

It's the stuff that IGear puts out - Faith Leader, the MP Coneheads, the legends Bumblebee resculpted to have a Beetle altmode - that ticks me off. Little to no real effort in engineering, just a copy of a Hasbro/Takara design. they're high profile, high price knockoffs, and I won't support them. Not to mention knockoff should not be comparably priced or more expensive than the original toy.

 

 

Oh, and I don't have kids, but my young cousins love my collection. I have two rules: 1) Ask permission before playing with a figure. They all know that some of my toys are very old and fragile or expensive, and those I'd like them to leave alone. 2) Treat them nicely. No smashing figures together or anything super rough. I've never had any problems with any of the kids.

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OK, a couple of points I want to rebutt (sorry, too lazy to C&P):

 

1) HasTak KNOWS about these third parties. I am sure there are fan campaigns writing to Hastak daily that try to report these guys. And HasTak has the bankroll and the lawyers to recycle these companies into toothpicks. So why don't they? Simply, HasTak doesn't see them as a threat. The low volume combined with their inability to directly compete against HasTak makes third party companies more of a flea than a bear. Ever notice how these knockoffs and 3rd parties don't get shelf space at Walmart, Target or TRU? Because (partially) doing so would result in HasTak coming down on them like an apocalyptic storm. Besides, personally I think it's silly to say that HasTak would have made these third party offerings anyways.

 

2) Let's face it: On the grand scale, Hasbro has almost zero interest in catering to adult collectors. Sure, they have Generations or Classics. Look how short those lines have been. More importantly, look at the general response to those lines. Half the figures eventually become shelfwarmers. Fans complain that they didn't get it 100% right. Hasbro makes their money off the 6-12yo boys. Not off adult collectors. Therefore, guess who they're going to cater to first? They do just enough tributes/homages to keep the adult collectors interested, but there's no secret that they want business of parents who will buy these for their kids to play with. Unfortunately, that market is shrinking as we continue to evolve into a digital world. Toys are sadly out, electronics are very much in.

 

3) There is an assumation that 3rd party companies make a grip of money on their figures. I argue that they make very little if anything. Think of the tooling costs, cost of material and labor. Hasbro makes millions of these figures at a time, regularly reusing the same mold to increase it's profit margin. They have several divisions that can make up for any losses their TF lines will lose due to disinterest or otherwise. They're a multi-billion dollar company that has the influence to demand the best pricing for raw material. With a third party company, you're talking about 1 (or maybe 3) guys making these figures. They have no buying power due to their size. They don't have multiple divisions that can absorb costs. Many of them do it to make a few extra bucks and serve a demand that isn't being fulfilled on the mass market. To assume these guys are going to retire off of these figures is a bit naive.

 

I'll say it again. I am against straight knockoffs. The crap you find at BigLots or conventions where it's a blatant copy of a produced figure SHOULD be off the market. Otherwise, let the consumer decide.

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