G1 Devastator

[jeffafa]

Encore - $120

High Quality KO - $70

Ebay - $$$ who knows

Your advice - Priceless

 

Sorry about the bad pun.

 

With the Encore release coming up, my focus is on Devs right now. My question is, would it be worth saving $50 by getting the KO. I really doubt getting a good condition original Devs off ebay will cost less than $120 - especially when you factor in a complete, no chrome or sticker wear, tight jointed 20 year old toy. I dont really have a problem spending $120 on a brand new encore devs when an original will probably cost even more, but I dont have a problem with saving money either.

 

Does anyone have that KO Devs set that can advise whether or not to just wait for the encore?

[MikePrime]

I have the KO Devastator. I got it on sale at KO Toys last December. It's great. I gave up on getting a vintage Devastator, since I won't pay more $20 per any complete combiner piece.

 

I think you should wait until there are official pictures of the final product of Encore Devastator. If it's no different than the original Devastator, then just get the high quality knock off. If there's anything unique about it, then get Encore Devastator.

[Superior Grilled Cheese]

I own a mini KO dev. that stands about 7 inches tall. Paid $6 on ebay a couple years ago and I was surprised that the plastic was great.

 

I think it's the same brand as these from kotoys (on the blue and red cards)

[ice_wolf74]

I bought a knock-off G1 Devestator on Ebay a few years ago. 15 minutes after I opened it up, I threw it in the trash. You definitely get what you pay for in those knock-offs. It was so bad in quality, I couldn't even stand to own it.

 

I would hold out for the Encore version since it is the official release with a better build quality than those knock-offs. The only thing that worries me is the sticker quality sucks on these Encore figures. So you might want to invest in reproduction Devestator stickers from Reprolabels.com; as they are a much higher quality (in terms of stickyness) than even the Encore versions are.

 

Btw: I too am excited for this Encore G1 Devestator release. I just gotta scrounge up 120 bucks from somewhere.

 

Edit: I should mention that the knock off Devestator I purchased was the set like you get in those premade Easter baskets at Kmart or Big Lots. All the figures came on a blister box. That's the set I am advising you stay far away from. :D

[Goktimus Prime]

Definitely go for Encore.

 

As ice_wolf74 said, it'll be better quality. Secondly, I think we should support TakaraTOMY by buying their reissues - thus encouraging to make more reissues in the future! I already have all my original G1 Constructicons from 1985, but I'm still gonna buy the Encore set anyway because I want to show my support to Takara. Also because I want minty new Constructicons (because my G1 Constructicons have been thoroughly "well loved" during my childhood, heh :D). I also bought the Encore Combaticons even though I have all the G1 Combaticons for the same reason too. :)

 

For me, it's also a moral issue. I refuse to pay thieves who steal HasTak's intellectual property to purchase counterfeits. A high quality counterfeit is still a counterfeit. I wouldn't buy something like a TV or a car if I knew it was stolen; so for the same reason I absolutely refuse to buy KOs because these are toys created illegally by people who've stolen HasTak's intellectual property. I've been robbed before -- in 2005 I was burgled and had a LOT of stuff stolen - all my DVDs, my PS2, all my games - even a few Transformer toys - and no doubt the burglar would have sold them off for cash. So I know what it feels like to be robbed by someone, so I refuse to purchase stolen property and thus support thieves. Some people think that intellectual property isn't 'real property' just because it's not physical - but it is. And the law recognises it as so. That's why we have laws for copyright, patents, registered trademarks etc.

 

Some people might argue that counterfeiting G1 toys is justifiable because they're no longer in production by HasTak, but it does impact on HasTak and Transfandom because:

 

(1) A lot of collectors are deceived and unknowingly pay for KOs thinking that they're legit. How many KO sellers openly admit that they're selling counterfeits? If a seller openly admits it, and the buyer goes in to purchase the oounterfeit with full knowledge that it's fake -- then alright, there's no deception there. But not all collectors (especially more casual collectors) know how to discriminate between authentic and counterfeit Transformers, especially with these high quality KOs. Deception FTL.

 

(2) It can make hunting down G1 Transformers harder because collectors have to be wary and try to look for any tell tale signs to see if it's a counterfeit or not. Inconvenience FTL.

 

(3) Takara can be put off from reissuing toys because they don't want to compete with counterfeiters in an uneven competitive environment. HasTak competing with companies like Bandai or Mattel with their respective toy lines is one thing, but competing with pirates who are counterfeiting their own products... that's something entirely different. Ever wondered why it's taken Takara 11 years to reissue Devastator? Takara started doing G1 reissues in 2000, and you may remember that for a long time all Takara toys came with a self-addressed domestic postage paid survey card, and the last question on that survey allowed you to choose up to three toys that you would like to see Takara make in the future. I often asked for Devastator to be reissued and I think a lot of other fans must have too, because around 2000 or 2001 Takara released a statement saying that they would NOT be reissuing Devastator because it had been too heavily knock-offed and that they refused to compete with pirates. Because obviously there's no way Takara can compete with bootleggers on price. So TakaraTOMY are now taking a gamble with Encore Devastator -- putting their trust in fans to purchase their product over the knock offs.

 

At the end of the day, it's not illegal to buy KOs (the law sees the consumer as victims of deception), but know this - if you choose the KO over the Encore, then you will have proved Takara's initial apprehension over reissuing Devastator true. For over a decade people have been criticising Takara saying, "Why won't they reissue Devastator??!" -- well, this is why. But if we choose the Encore over the KOs and the Encore sell well, then we'll have proved those apprehensions wrong and rewarded TakaraTOMY for putting their faith in us.

 

And don't think that reissues won't shelfwarm, because they can - especially the larger and more expensive ones, e.g. God Ginrai, Metroplex, Omega Supreme, Sky Lynx etc. I'm really hoping that if more collectors buy the more expensive ticket items that it might encourage TakaraTOMY to reissue more - like maybe Trypticon (we know they probably still have the mould because of Gigastorm), Scorponok... or even Fortress Maximus (they used the mould for Brave Maximus in Car Robot). But if the fandom doesn't support these big expensive reissues and they end up shelf warming, then don't be surprised if these kinds of toys don't get reissued in future.

 

We all vote with our wallets. I'm voting for Encore.

 

P.S.: Encore Devastator isn't due to be out until November. So you got over 3 months to start saving up anyway. :)

[jeffafa]

Thanks for the input guys.

Its funny, I bought the crappy chinese devs almost a decade ago. I told myself it was temporary until I could get an official devs. And it was 15 bucks on Canal St in Chinatown. I held out for an official release as long as I could, and for a while thought the KO was my only choice.

Gok, as far as loyalty to Takara... Well they are on pretty thin ice with me anyway. I still feel burned after MP Rodimus, but I dont want to beat that dead horse.

[Goktimus Prime]

Gok, as far as loyalty to Takara... Well they are on pretty thin ice with me anyway. I still feel burned after MP Rodimus, but I dont want to beat that dead horse.

Yeah, HasTak do make some pretty crap toys - and by all means fans should avoid buying toys that are crap to let them know what we think about them. Crap toys totally deserve to shelf-warm; and that's the only way they'll know what we think about them. Cos as far as HasTak's concerned, a toy that sells well = success, a toy that shelfwarms = fail. I still see ROTF Combiner Class Devastators shelfwarming... sucked in Hasbro. So it's still voting with our wallets... by purchasing the toy you're voting in favour of it, and by not buying it, you're voting against it.

 

I frequently avoid buying Transformer toys that I think are awful, and if I do buy a Transformer toy expecting to like it, but then later discovering that it's an absolute POS, then I just go back and get a refund or exchange because I'm dissatisfied with my purchase damnit! Or if I can't, then I'll sell it off to someone else and just avoid buying anymore toys from that line in future. Conversely when I buy a toy that's totally awesome, I'm gonna want to buy more of them from that line - maybe collect the whole set. ;)

 

So by supporting HasTak I don't expect anyone to be absolute completists and buy everything that they spit out... because some of it is just rubbish. But I also choose not to support thieves who steal Hasbro's property to make money. Just because HasTak occasionally make bad decisions, doesn't mean that they deserve having the intellectual property rights being violated.

 

And for me, it's also matter of pride and honour in being a Transformer fan. I take great pride that my collection is legit - that I only purchase toys which are manufactured under licence from Hasbro and/or Takara(TOMY). I have a small number of KOs and one third party item -- all of which were given to me as gifts from people; usually birthday or Xmas gifts from people who know I like Transformers but they're not collectors and they don't know the difference between KOs and legits (and I've thrown away most of those KOs anyway). In my personal standard Transformer fan, I accept NO substitute for the real thing.

 

If I had to make a choice between accepting a KO or just going without the toy -- I'd go without. I'd rather NOT have a toy and keep my integrity as a collector, than lower my standards and accept a filthy counterfeit as a substitute - even as a place holder. For example, when the KO Headmaster heads came out, I must admit that I was tempted because at the time my Zarak had a broken arm and I didn't have Spike. So I was sorely tempted to get that set just to replace Zarak and Spike. For weeks I underwent this turmoil in my heart and mind... do I give in to the "dark side" and get the KOs, or should I keep my honour and pass them up. In the end I passed them up, and I'm so glad I did. Afterwards I did manage to track down Spike and Zarak (which is bloody hard for me cos I don't have eBay) ... and they ended up being cheaper than what the KOs would have cost me! (ignoring the cost of the KO Japanese Headmaster warriors - dividing the cost of each Headmaster head evenly, I ended up paying $5 less per figure) - so in the end, I saved a bit of money and I got the originals too. :) But it took me some time and effort to find them... but I was willing to do it to maintain my dignity as a collector.

 

I like to believe in pluralism - the idea of doing unto others as you would have others do unto you. I've been robbed before and no doubt the thief sold what he stole from me to make money. That's what bootleggers are doing to HasTak... I wouldn't want other people to buy something that was stolen from me, so likewise I won't knowingly buy something that was stolen from HasTak. If HasTak creates a poor product, then sure, boycott it.

 

But at the same time I also choose to boycott counterfeits too. I choose to buy legitimate Transformer toys that interest me. I won't buy legit toys that don't appeal to me, nor will I buy any illegitimate Transformer toy or accessory - regardless of its quality, because I'm demonstrating my ethical objection.

[jeffafa]

I didnt actually intend for this to turn into another KO vs offical toy debate - but it was probably inevitable with this topic.

My question is (and I probably could have asked it better now that I reread the initial post) about the quality of the KO set. I have watched video reviews of the KO set and have never seen anything negative. If anyone has found anything negative on these sets, please point me to them. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of negatives on the encore Bruticus set, a lot of complaints about the mold. For some reason I couldnt get that one so I dont know. I did get the Seacons, and the stickers were a complete fail. Every other sticker was misapplied. Ice Wolf brought up the stickers for encore also, and he is right. Imagine if the stickers are jacked up on encore Devs, and then I need to spend another $20 at Reprolabels to fix them. I got the KO Sunstreaker for about $30 and his stickers were jacked up too. But at $30 I dont mind another $10 to fix him. I think the KO Devs set will not come with factory stickers applied, and with Takaras track record lately I think that is a good thing.

Again, I dont think $120 for the Encore set is unreasonable (even though encore Omega Supreme cost less when he first came out) for a brand new MISB reissue Devs. I am just afraid the KO will be better quality, and being $50 cheaper (possibly $70 if there are sticker issues) would mean a much better deal.

I get what you mean about stealing IP and all, but I honestly dont feel bad for HasTak when it comes to that. If they cant run their business and address what people want then its their fault. I really doubt a lot of people asked for encore Skylynx, and it is evident by the fact that he is still in stock when the encore cassettes are sold out. They are doing what is convenient and they think will make a profit, and if they miss the boat its their fault - plain and simple. Am I supposed to be loyal to them when they sell a piece of crap that I dont really want just so they will make something that I really do want???

[Tripredacus]

So by supporting HasTak I don't expect anyone to be absolute completists and buy everything that they spit out...

 

Its also a fact that Hasbro (at least) doesn't expect people to do this either. In fact, there was a quote where someone was surprised the people were complaining about repaint, since Hasbro hadn't expected people would buy a repaint if they had the original. There is definately a disconnect in how Hasbro sees their product and how the fans or collectors see it. The actual quote is on tfwiki *somewhere* and I can't find it right now.

 

I didnt actually intend for this to turn into another KO vs offical toy debate

 

This was bound to happen because you mentioned it as an option. And the fact that there are a few types of people on TF boards and we all like to share our opinions:

- thinks KOs are cool

- thinks KOs are stealing from Hasbro and should be avoided

- thinks Third parties are KOs

Countless other types of fans out there too.

Since Hasbro nor Takara ever seem to care (except for a couple cases back in the 80s) about the existance of KOs, there is no clear cut way for the fandom to go. So we all end up debating about the entire thing any time it comes up.

 

But anyways, just get whichever one you want. I can't speak of the recent KOs, but some of the older ones are pretty bad.

[Goktimus Prime]

I didnt actually intend for this to turn into another KO vs offical toy debate - but it was probably inevitable with this topic.

My question is (and I probably could have asked it better now that I reread the initial post) about the quality of the KO set. I have watched video reviews of the KO set and have never seen anything negative. If anyone has found anything negative on these sets, please point me to them.

Illegal and ethically questionable trade practice is a negative point IMO. Some people may not see it as a negative thing, but I reckon it's worth mentioning.

 

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of negatives on the encore Bruticus set, a lot of complaints about the mold.

That's because the Bruticus mould has been overused (with all the different releases of Vuldigus/Ruination). So as a result there's been mould degradation. The Devastator mould hasn't been touched in 1995, and the G2 versions seem fine to me... but it's possible that the mould may have deteriorated through age. But one would assume that TOMY would have restored the mould before doing a reissue.

 

But yeah, Bruticus has mould issues because HasTak overused the mould with Ruination... the Devastator mould doesn't have this history and shouldn't suffer from mould degradation as a result. It may have some deterioration, but that can be restored - depending how how extensive it is. The fact that they're reissuing the toy indicates that it can't be that extensive, because if it were, they wouldn't reissue it. A lot of G1 moulds that are too damaged aren't reissued (e.g. Dinobots, Wheeljack, Sunstreaker, Mirage etc.) because the cost of repairing those moulds far outweighs the profit that they would make from selling the reissues. Remember that in 2000 when Takara reissued Convoy, they spent truckloads of money in restoring the G2 Optimus Prime mould (because the original G1 mould was probably lost or destroyed) - but even then, the moulds for the arms was severely deteriorated and had to be reconstructed ... and Takara had a whinge about it. And we saw how HasTak milked the crap out of that mould (it would have to be the most reissued Transformer ever!) to get their money's worth.

 

I did get the Seacons, and the stickers were a complete fail. Every other sticker was misapplied. Imagine if the stickers are jacked up on encore Devs, and then I need to spend another $20 at Reprolabels to fix them.

That's Hasbro for ya. TakaraTOMY reissues will have their stickers either applied with greater care, or you apply them yourself.

 

I can't remember getting any Japanese reissue with misapplied or poorly applied stickers. But if you're that worried about it, why not wait for someone else to get the toy first, check out some of the reviews - then decide if it's good enough to get? Or preorder the toy now, see some reviews, and if there's a problem then sell your one off while it's still MISB and reconsider your options.

 

I get what you mean about stealing IP and all, but I honestly dont feel bad for HasTak when it comes to that. If they cant run their business and address what people want then its their fault. I really doubt a lot of people asked for encore Skylynx, and it is evident by the fact that he is still in stock when the encore cassettes are sold out. They are doing what is convenient and they think will make a profit, and if they miss the boat its their fault - plain and simple. Am I supposed to be loyal to them when they sell a piece of crap that I dont really want just so they will make something that I really do want???

Are you saying that because you're unhappy with HasTak's decisions that it justifies you supporting people who steal from them?? Dude, that's like saying, "I hate my neighbour, so I'm gonna buy his television that someone stole from him." :eek

 

Just because I'm unhappy with someone doesn't mean I'll support someone else to steal from them. Like I said, if you're not happy with HasTak's products, just don't buy them. I don't see how it justifies supporting thieves. Besides, it's not Hasbro's fault that you didn't just buy the original Constructicons in 1985 (that's what I did). And the Constructicon moulds were used again in G1 in 1992 and in G2 in 1993 (although the 1992 G1 Constructicons can't combine... and technically don't have individual names)

 

As for Encore Sky Lynx and the cassettes, keep in mind the following:

+ Only Takara bothered to asked customers for suggestions on future reissues. TakaraTOMY do not. I agree that a lot of Takara's decisions have gone downhill since their merger with TOMY... Tomy really don't care about Transformers or treat the brand with as much respect as Takara did. There's biiig difference between Takara and TakaraTOMY. As you said, TOMY saw the opportunity reissue Sky Lynx and Omega Supreme and did it - moulds that were owned by Tomy and therefore Takara had no rights to reissue them on their own. And I reckon it was a cool decision. :)

+ The cassettes are small and cheap, so naturally they're going to sell better than bigger and more expensive toys like Metroplex, Sky Lynx and Omega Supreme.

 

And I agree that TakaraTOMY's prices are getting more expensive and don't offer as much value as they used to. Still doesn't justify supporting thieves though... if a toy costs more than what I'm willing to pay, I'll either wait until it's on sale, or just not buy the toy. I'm not going to steal it or buy a fake.

 

Its also a fact that Hasbro (at least) doesn't expect people to do this either. In fact, there was a quote where someone was surprised the people were complaining about repaint, since Hasbro hadn't expected people would buy a repaint if they had the original. There is definately a disconnect in how Hasbro sees their product and how the fans or collectors see it. The actual quote is on tfwiki *somewhere* and I can't find it right now.

Yeah, I know the quote you're talking about. Good old collectors and our obsessive compulsive nature. :P

 

one two three four five, one two three four five, one two three four five...

 

I didnt actually intend for this to turn into another KO vs offical toy debate

 

This was bound to happen because you mentioned it as an option.

Well, I brought it up as part of the pros and cons between getting a KO, G1 or Encore -- and IMHO one of the cons of getting a KO is the ethical issue that it raises. For some people it may not be an issue - we all have different values, but for me it is. And as Ice_Wolf74 said, quality can be an issue with KOs too. Also what about customer support? With a legit toy you can get refunds, exchanges or even replacement parts. For example, when I got Masterpiece Convoy it was missing a panel. I called Takara's customer call centre and they FedExed me a replacement part (all the way from Tokyo to Sydney) in 3 working days - along with some free Transformers merchandise (2 sheets of stickers and a SCF PVC pewter figurine) as an apology for my inconvenience! :) Not sure if bootleggers offer this kind of service...

 

And the fact that there are a few types of people on TF boards and we all like to share our opinions:

- thinks KOs are cool

- thinks KOs are stealing from Hasbro and should be avoided

- thinks Third parties are KOs

Countless other types of fans out there too.

While third parties are arguably a violation of Hasbro's IP, they're not counterfeits because they're not imitations of legit Transformer toys trying to deceive people into thinking that they are. They're original designs that people have made which happen to use likenesses of characters owned by HasTak. I'm not trying to splinter this discussion into including 3rd parties too -- just wanted to point out that by technical definition, they're not counterfeits.

 

Since Hasbro nor Takara ever seem to care (except for a couple cases back in the 80s) about the existance of KOs, there is no clear cut way for the fandom to go. So we all end up debating about the entire thing any time it comes up.

Just because HasTak fails to take action against pirates doesn't make it right.

 

But anyways, just get whichever one you want. I can't speak of the recent KOs, but some of the older ones are pretty bad.

At the end of the day, it's up to us as consumers as to whether or not we want to be ethical consumers.

 

For example, cage eggs are way cheaper than free range eggs, but I buy free range eggs because the chickens that lay them are supposedly treated more humanely than battery hens (I know there's some debate about this, but let's assume they are). I also prefer to buy chocolates which are made from cocoa plantations that don't use slaves. I am also comforted with the fact that Hasbro's toy factory has a reasonably good ETI (Ethical Trade Index) rating (although it could be gooderer).

 

In the end, we make choices as consumers and we vote with our wallets. I personally choose not to support thieves by purchasing their products made from property that they stole from Hasbro. But other people might think, "I don't care, they're cheap." With things like eggs, food and other necessities, I can understand this argument a bit... but with non-essential items like toys, I find it harder to swallow. I mean, if you have a family to feed and you can't afford free range eggs... then sure, I can understand why you'd buy cage eggs. The hens may be suffering, but your kids have to eat. But toys? So you don't get to own a G1 Devastator... tragedy. You could just either save up for the reissue now (there's over 3 months to save $120 -- that's not that much), or if the quality bugs you, save up even more and hunt down the original G1s. Or just go without them and keep your honour as a collector. But anyway, these are just my personal standards... perhaps for others it's just about money. And I can't say that money doesn't matter, cos it does (hence my empathy for some people who choose to buy cheaper necessities despite dubious ethical issues).