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Haggisjin
linky

Why I Will Not Vote for John McCain

Phillip Butler | March 27, 2008



As some of you might know, John McCain is a long-time acquaintance of mine that goes way back to our time together at the U.S. Naval Academy and as Prisoners of War in Vietnam. He is a man I respect and admire in some ways. But there are a number of reasons why I will not vote for him for President of the United States.

When I was a Plebe (4th classman, or freshman) at the Naval Academy in 1957-58, I was assigned to the 17th Company for my four years there. In those days we had about 3,600 midshipmen spread among 24 companies, thus about 150 midshipmen to a company. As fortune would have it, John, a First Classman (senior) and his room mate lived directly across the hall from me and my two room mates. Believe me when I say that back then I would never in a million or more years have dreamed that the crazy guy across the hall would someday be a Senator and candidate for President!

John was a wild man. He was funny, with a quick wit and he was intelligent. But he was intent on breaking every USNA regulation in our 4 inch thick USNA Regulations book. And I believe he must have come as close to his goal as any midshipman who ever attended the Academy. John had me "coming around" to his room frequently during my plebe year. And on one occasion he took me with him to escape "over the wall" in the dead of night. He had a taxi cab waiting for us that took us to a bar some 7 miles away. John had a few beers, but forbid me to drink (watching out for me I guess) and made me drink cokes. I could tell many other midshipman stories about John that year and he unbelievably managed to graduate though he spent the majority of his first class year on restriction for the stuff he did get caught doing. In fact he barely managed to graduate, standing 5th from the bottom of his 800 man graduating class. I and many others have speculated that the main reason he did graduate was because his father was an Admiral, and also his grandfather, both U.S. Naval Academy graduates.

People often ask if I was a Prisoner of War with John McCain. My answer is always "No - John McCain was a POW with me." The reason is I was there for 8 years and John got there 2 ス years later, so he was a POW for 5 ス years. And we have our own seniority system, based on time as a POW.

John's treatment as a POW:

1) Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969. After September of 1969 the Vietnamese stopped the torture and gave us increased food and rudimentary health care. Several hundred of us were captured much earlier. I got there April 20, 1965 so my bad treatment period lasted 4 1/2 years. President Ho Chi Minh died on September 9, 1969, and the new regime that replaced him and his policies was more pragmatic. They realized we were worth a lot as bargaining chips if we were alive. And they were right because eventually Americans gave up on the war and agreed to trade our POW's for their country. A damn good trade in my opinion! But my point here is that John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals.

2) John was badly injured when he was shot down. Both arms were broken and he had other wounds from his ejection. Unfortunately this was often the case - new POW's arriving with broken bones and serious combat injuries. Many died from their wounds. Medical care was non-existent to rudimentary. Relief from pain was almost never given and often the wounds were used as an available way to torture the POW. Because John's father was the Naval Commander in the Pacific theater, he was exploited with TV interviews while wounded. These film clips have now been widely seen. But it must be known that many POW's suffered similarly, not just John. And many were similarly exploited for political propaganda.

3) John was offered, and refused, "early release." Many of us were given this offer. It meant speaking out against your country and lying about your treatment to the press. You had to "admit" that the U.S. was criminal and that our treatment was "lenient and humane." So I, like numerous others, refused the offer. This was obviously something none of us could accept. Besides, we were bound by our service regulations, Geneva Conventions and loyalties to refuse early release until all the POW's were released, with the sick and wounded going first.

4) John was awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart for heroism and wounds in combat. This heroism has been played up in the press and in his various political campaigns. But it should be known that there were approximately 600 military POW's in Vietnam. Among all of us, decorations awarded have recently been totaled to the following: Medals of Honor - 8, Service Crosses - 42, Silver Stars - 590, Bronze Stars - 958 and Purple Hearts - 1,249. John certainly performed courageously and well. But it must be remembered that he was one hero among many - not uniquely so as his campaigns would have people believe.

John McCain served his time as a POW with great courage, loyalty and tenacity. More that 600 of us did the same. After our repatriation a census showed that 95% of us had been tortured at least once. The Vietnamese were quite democratic about it. There were many heroes in North Vietnam. I saw heroism every day there. And we motivated each other to endure and succeed far beyond what any of us thought we had in ourselves. Succeeding as a POW is a group sport, not an individual one. We all supported and encouraged each other to survive and succeed. John knows that. He was not an individual POW hero. He was a POW who surmounted the odds with the help of many comrades, as all of us did.

I furthermore believe that having been a POW is no special qualification for being President of the United States. The two jobs are not the same, and POW experience is not, in my opinion, something I would look for in a presidential candidate.

Most of us who survived that experience are now in our late 60's and 70's. Sadly, we have died and are dying off at a greater rate than our non-POW contemporaries. We experienced injuries and malnutrition that are coming home to roost. So I believe John's age (73) and survival expectation are not good for being elected to serve as our President for 4 or more years.

I can verify that John has an infamous reputation for being a hot head. He has a quick and explosive temper that many have experienced first hand. Folks, quite honestly that is not the finger I want next to that red button.

It is also disappointing to see him take on and support Bush's war in Iraq, even stating we might be there for another 100 years. For me John represents the entrenched and bankrupt policies of Washington-as-usual. The past 7 years have proven to be disastrous for our country. And I believe John's views on war, foreign policy, economics, environment, health care, education, national infrastructure and other important areas are much the same as those of the Bush administration.

I'm disappointed to see John represent himself politically in ways that are not accurate. He is not a moderate Republican. On some issues he is a maverick. But his voting record is far to the right. I fear for his nominations to our Supreme Court, and the consequent continuing loss of individual freedoms, especially regarding moral and religious issues. John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be.

Senator John Sidney McCain, III is a remarkable man who has made enormous personal achievements. And he is a man that I am proud to call a fellow POW who "Returned With Honor." That's our POW motto. But since many of you keep asking what I think of him, I've decided to write it out. In short, I think John Sidney McCain, III is a good man, but not someone I will vote for in the upcoming election to be our President of the United States.



Stormtrooper53
Well, that settles it, then. I won't be voting for McCain.

(linky no worky)
Jerrod
Boor-ing. If I wanted to listen to a rambling old man weirdly use a candidate's full name and talk about "the button" and crap like that, I'd chat up my grumpy, bike-riding, prospector-bearded co-worker.
Lord Madhammer
I am SICK to death of friggin Vietnam skeletor.png skeletor.png skeletor.png I can't wait until everyone from that generation is dead.
Haggisjin
(linky still worky for me) Shrug.gif

QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 06:38 AM) *
I am SICK to death of friggin Vietnam skeletor.png skeletor.png skeletor.png I can't wait until everyone from that generation is dead.


Just want to say hello to my Dad, my Uncles, their friends..... wave.gif
Stormtrooper53
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 08:38 AM) *
I am SICK to death of friggin Vietnam skeletor.png skeletor.png skeletor.png I can't wait until everyone from that generation is dead.

Me too. optimuslaugh2.gif











Well, just the hippies.
Lord Madhammer
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 20 2008, 08:39 AM) *
(linky still worky for me) Shrug.gif

QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 06:38 AM) *
I am SICK to death of friggin Vietnam skeletor.png skeletor.png skeletor.png I can't wait until everyone from that generation is dead.


Just want to say hello to my Dad, my Uncles, their friends..... wave.gif

Not that my dad wasn't in the Navy in 1968 or anything...

I'm just so sick of these tired old political battles being played out over and over again. Our current climate of pain10.gif is due in no small part to that generation.
Jerrod
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 08:55 AM) *
Not that my dad wasn't in the Navy in 1968 or anything...

I'm just so sick of these tired old political battles being played out over and over again. Our current climate of pain10.gif is due in no small part to that generation.

Where's OUR parade?!?
Haggisjin
QUOTE (Stormtrooper53 @ Aug 20 2008, 05:19 AM) *
Well, that settles it, then. I won't be voting for McCain.



I can't tell if you're being satirical or not.
Stormtrooper53
Dude, an article titled "Why I'm not Voting for John McCain" and then rambles on for 10 paragraphs about how "John McCain wasn't a POW...we ALL were POWs!" before finally telling me why the author is not going to vote for John McCain totally changed my mind.
Nomolos
funny, this guy is saying how nothing Mccain did was special, which I actually agree with considering the circumstance, to make him a good candidate. then he plays up bad mccain before POW camp and downplays him during POW. how about what the exoerience taught either of them?

saying "he survived by working with others" or "we all had a code and he followed it" aren't bad things.
the things he says don't qualify mccain don't really work against him either.
it just doesn't seem like he has a good reason other than. "him being a POW isn't a big deal cuz I was too".

now when he gets into policies that's different but really the stuff about military is irrelevant to that. he couldve just said (cause it really is all he says) in perfect unison with the left.

"it'll be 4 more years of Bush,it'll be like voting another Bush so I'm not voting for him"

to which us on the right reply in unison "Obama's a marxist, so I'm not voting for him"


...guy was probably a secret hippie. optimuslaugh2.gif
Lord Madhammer
I think he's just pissed that he was a POW longer and nobody gives a sh*t about him.
Stormtrooper53
Shoulda been a U.S. Senator...THAT'S when you get to be important.

EDIT: Note to Haggisjin - ^this^ is supposed to be satiric. optimuslaugh2.gif
Hobbes-timus Prime
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 20 2008, 07:31 AM) *
to which us on the right reply in unison "Obama's a marxist, so I'm not voting for him"

Not the rational thinking of us on the right.
Jerrod
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 20 2008, 10:38 AM) *
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 20 2008, 07:31 AM) *
to which us on the right reply in unison "Obama's a marxist, so I'm not voting for him"

Not the rational thinking of us on the right.

Now if you said "Obama's a Marx Brothers fan, so I'm not voting for him," I'd have to agree.
ROSEDOGGYDOG
I think the header needs to be BIGGER!

sidenote I see BK lurking, Hi BK wave.gif
Jerrod
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 10:46 AM) *
I think the header needs to be BIGGER!

sidenote I see BK lurking, Hi BK wave.gif

king.png

The Burger King is here? Where?
The Diesel
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 10:33 AM) *
I think he's just pissed that he was a POW longer and nobody gives a sh*t about him.

rofflebot[1].gif
ROSEDOGGYDOG
QUOTE (Jerrod @ Aug 20 2008, 08:49 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 10:46 AM) *
I think the header needs to be BIGGER!

sidenote I see BK lurking, Hi BK wave.gif

king.png

The Burger King is here? Where?


Now I want a whooper and its only 9am here.
Hobbes-timus Prime
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 08:06 AM) *
QUOTE (Jerrod @ Aug 20 2008, 08:49 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 10:46 AM) *
I think the header needs to be BIGGER!

sidenote I see BK lurking, Hi BK wave.gif

king.png

The Burger King is here? Where?


Now I want a whooper and its only 9am here.

Don't fret. The Whooper's on their breakfast menu.
Lord Madhammer
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 20 2008, 11:07 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 08:06 AM) *
QUOTE (Jerrod @ Aug 20 2008, 08:49 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 10:46 AM) *
I think the header needs to be BIGGER!

sidenote I see BK lurking, Hi BK wave.gif

king.png

The Burger King is here? Where?


Now I want a whooper and its only 9am here.

Don't fret. The Whooper's on their breakfast menu.

Do you have to whoop for it?
The Diesel
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 11:08 AM) *
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 20 2008, 11:07 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 08:06 AM) *
QUOTE (Jerrod @ Aug 20 2008, 08:49 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 10:46 AM) *
I think the header needs to be BIGGER!

sidenote I see BK lurking, Hi BK wave.gif

king.png

The Burger King is here? Where?


Now I want a whooper and its only 9am here.

Don't fret. The Whooper's on their breakfast menu.

Do you have to whoop for it?

laughlol.gif
ROSEDOGGYDOG
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 09:08 AM) *
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 20 2008, 11:07 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 08:06 AM) *
QUOTE (Jerrod @ Aug 20 2008, 08:49 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 10:46 AM) *
I think the header needs to be BIGGER!

sidenote I see BK lurking, Hi BK wave.gif

king.png

The Burger King is here? Where?


Now I want a whooper and its only 9am here.

Don't fret. The Whooper's on their breakfast menu.

Do you have to whoop for it?


<<
>>

yes
Jerrod
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 11:08 AM) *
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 20 2008, 11:07 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 08:06 AM) *
QUOTE (Jerrod @ Aug 20 2008, 08:49 AM) *
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 20 2008, 10:46 AM) *
I think the header needs to be BIGGER!

sidenote I see BK lurking, Hi BK wave.gif

king.png

The Burger King is here? Where?


Now I want a whooper and its only 9am here.

Don't fret. The Whooper's on their breakfast menu.

Do you have to whoop for it?

That's what Hobbes gets for marrying into a family of Aggies.
Hobbes-timus Prime
QUOTE (Jerrod @ Aug 20 2008, 08:30 AM) *
That's what Hobbes gets for marrying into a family of Aggies.

laughlol.gif
Nomolos
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 20 2008, 08:38 AM) *
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 20 2008, 07:31 AM) *
to which us on the right reply in unison "Obama's a marxist, so I'm not voting for him"

Not the rational thinking of us on the right.


I think you misinterpreted my sarcasm.
Agent Zero
This is 2004 all over again. In that election the Dems fielded a Vietnam War hero as their candidate, and the GOP went into "just because he's a war hero doesn't mean he'd make a good president" mode. The GOP then dug up fellow Vietnam vets and got them to say "John Kerry wasn't a war hero, his military record is a lie."

Now fast forward to the present. It's the GOP fielding the Vietnam War hero as their candidate, and surprise surprise, it's the Dems in "just because he's a war hero doesn't mean he'd make a good president" mode. And it seems now the left has adopted the GOP's underhanded tactic from four years ago of getting bitter, jealous Vietnam vets to lie about the other party's war hero candidate.

Look, I agree that someone's past military record, regardless of how impressive and heroic it is, is not a prerequisite for political office.
That said, there's no excuse for the opposition to try and discredit a war hero's military record. Let it be a non-issue, don't sink to a new political low by telling a man who served his country his sacrifices weren't that great. That goes for both Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives.
Lord Madhammer
I like how one Vietnam-era crank = "The Dems."
Haggisjin
I just thought it was interesting considering that everytime somebody says something bad of McCain his campaign goes "You're insulting the HONOR OF A WAR HERO?!! HOW DARE YOU!".
Lord Madhammer
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 20 2008, 06:39 PM) *
I just thought it was interesting considering that everytime somebody says something bad of McCain his campaign goes "You're insulting the HONOR OF A WAR HERO?!! HOW DARE YOU!".

The sad reality is that in this country, you can say a Democrat isn't *really* a war hero because how can he be, he's a Democrat... and it sticks.
Agent Zero
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 07:47 PM) *
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 20 2008, 06:39 PM) *
I just thought it was interesting considering that everytime somebody says something bad of McCain his campaign goes "You're insulting the HONOR OF A WAR HERO?!! HOW DARE YOU!".

The sad reality is that in this country, you can say a Democrat isn't *really* a war hero because how can he be, he's a Democrat... and it sticks.

My point is that it was a dickish move by the GOP and the right to try and tarnish John Kerry's war record in 04 and it's dickish for the Dems and the left to try and tarnish John McCain's war record.
With both candidates the opposition had/has plenty of legitimate reasons to attack the candidate. There's no need to sink as low as insulting the candidate's war record.

The GOP and the right was guilty of this in 04 and it seems the left is guilty of this in 08, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Dems jump on the bandwagon. It sucks and it's low, even by political standards, regardless of who does it.
It's the "adult" version of vandalizing a war memorial.
Lord Madhammer
QUOTE (Agent Zero @ Aug 20 2008, 07:34 PM) *
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 07:47 PM) *
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 20 2008, 06:39 PM) *
I just thought it was interesting considering that everytime somebody says something bad of McCain his campaign goes "You're insulting the HONOR OF A WAR HERO?!! HOW DARE YOU!".

The sad reality is that in this country, you can say a Democrat isn't *really* a war hero because how can he be, he's a Democrat... and it sticks.

My point is that it was a dickish move by the GOP and the right to try and tarnish John Kerry's war record in 04 and it's dickish for the Dems and the left to try and tarnish John McCain's war record.
With both candidates the opposition had/has plenty of legitimate reasons to attack the candidate. There's no need to sink as low as insulting the candidate's war record.

The GOP and the right was guilty of this in 04 and it seems the left is guilty of this in 08, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Dems jump on the bandwagon. It sucks and it's low, even by political standards, regardless of who does it.
It's the "adult" version of vandalizing a war memorial.

Whoa, whoa, whoa..... you're making a lot of assumptions there. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was a 527 organization that wasn't part of the GOP. Now you can debate as to whether or not there was any behind-the-scenes collusion, but my guess is that that wasn't the case. Not that they wouldn't have been happy to have the help. And in this case, you're talking about one freaking guy.

Really, I get that people are cynical about politics. I get it. But let's base our cynicism on reality rather than supposition and weak arguments.
Smooth Jazz
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 08:57 PM) *
Really, I get that people are cynical about politics. I get it. But let's base our cynicism on reality rather than supposition and weak arguments.


But... I thought that was how one talked politics.
Haggisjin
Well, with McCain, it is an issue simply because his campaign brings it up at every single opportunity. So perhaps it should be examined, rather than just bowing down and accepting the rhetoric? I'm not advocating a "John McCain was a secret commie draft dodger" line or anything, but instead just looking at it without stars in your eyes.

*not directed at anyone person in particular*
Stormtrooper53
QUOTE (Agent Zero @ Aug 20 2008, 06:08 PM) *
This is 2004 all over again. In that election the Dems fielded a Vietnam War hero as their candidate, and the GOP went into "just because he's a war hero doesn't mean he'd make a good president" mode. The GOP then dug up fellow Vietnam vets and got them to say "John Kerry wasn't a war hero, his military record is a lie."

Now fast forward to the present. It's the GOP fielding the Vietnam War hero as their candidate, and surprise surprise, it's the Dems in "just because he's a war hero doesn't mean he'd make a good president" mode. And it seems now the left has adopted the GOP's underhanded tactic from four years ago of getting bitter, jealous Vietnam vets to lie about the other party's war hero candidate.

Look, I agree that someone's past military record, regardless of how impressive and heroic it is, is not a prerequisite for political office.
That said, there's no excuse for the opposition to try and discredit a war hero's military record. Let it be a non-issue, don't sink to a new political low by telling a man who served his country his sacrifices weren't that great. That goes for both Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives.

I don't think this guy was trying to discredit McCain's war record at all. He said "I'm not voting for McCain," then he said "You know, McCain wasn't the only POW in Vietnam, and some guys even had it worse," (undoubtedly, like the guys who didn't come back at all, maybe?) and then he said "John McCain is a hot head, I'm scared his finger would be on the red button and I also don't like his policies regarding the Iraq war so I'm not voting for him."

I didn't see any of it as an "attack" on McCain's war record, he was just pointing out that however bad McCain says he had it, some guys (like poor, poor me!) had it worse.

FTR, I don't think I've ever heard McCain ask for any pity because he was a POW, he just kind of handles it matter-o-factly.
Haggisjin
The statement released by a representative of the McCain campaign after it was made public that McCain wasn't in the "cone of silence" during Obama's questions at Saddleback.

QUOTE
"The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,"


The statement released by a representative of the McCain campaign after bloggers on the interwebs started noticing that McCain's "cross in the dirt" story looked awfully plagiarised:

QUOTE
It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman's memory of war from the comfort of mom's basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others.



Yeah, McCain's campaign is totally not using his former POW status for easy political gain...

edit: Damn you English! skeletor.png
Lord Madhammer
Oh come on. That quote isn't real. Is it? Dungeons & Dragons laughlol.gif
Haggisjin
Michael Goldfarb, official blogger of the McCain campaign.

I think he got scared of losing the nerd vote though, because he followed with this:

QUOTE
If my comments caused any harm or hurt to the hard working Americans who play Dungeons & Dragons, I apologize. This campaign is committed to increasing the strength, constitution, dexterity, intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores of every American
Lord Madhammer
I still don't know if I believe you laughlol.gif
DarkNarcoleptic
-2 gravitas. A troll approaches.
Haggisjin
The guy sounds like a closet nerd case to me


You degenerate D&D players! You're filthy despicable sinners that are going to hell!


*puts on dungeon master hat and waits in public bathroom*
Agent Zero
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 08:57 PM) *
QUOTE (Agent Zero @ Aug 20 2008, 07:34 PM) *
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 07:47 PM) *
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 20 2008, 06:39 PM) *
I just thought it was interesting considering that everytime somebody says something bad of McCain his campaign goes "You're insulting the HONOR OF A WAR HERO?!! HOW DARE YOU!".

The sad reality is that in this country, you can say a Democrat isn't *really* a war hero because how can he be, he's a Democrat... and it sticks.

My point is that it was a dickish move by the GOP and the right to try and tarnish John Kerry's war record in 04 and it's dickish for the Dems and the left to try and tarnish John McCain's war record.
With both candidates the opposition had/has plenty of legitimate reasons to attack the candidate. There's no need to sink as low as insulting the candidate's war record.

The GOP and the right was guilty of this in 04 and it seems the left is guilty of this in 08, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Dems jump on the bandwagon. It sucks and it's low, even by political standards, regardless of who does it.
It's the "adult" version of vandalizing a war memorial.

Whoa, whoa, whoa..... you're making a lot of assumptions there. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was a 527 organization that wasn't part of the GOP. Now you can debate as to whether or not there was any behind-the-scenes collusion, but my guess is that that wasn't the case. Not that they wouldn't have been happy to have the help. And in this case, you're talking about one freaking guy.

Really, I get that people are cynical about politics. I get it. But let's base our cynicism on reality rather than supposition and weak arguments.

I said the GOP and the right. As in those people and organizations who sided with, but not officially aligned with, the "official right wing" party. So the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth fall under "the right," if not the GOP officially. My guess is that there was some behind-the-scenes-shenanigans in that campaign, and it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out the guy who wrote this article had some kind of connection to the Obama campaign.
Look, I'm not specifically attacking Obama. I want the guy to win for Christ's sake. I just think it's low for anyone, even a politician whom I agree with, to try and attack a man's war record for political gain.
Now you've mentioned a few times in the various election threads how the GOP, or at least its supporters, did this to John Kerry in 04. And yes, that did suck and it was a low, low blow.
That's no reason to excuse the Dems and their supporters for similar behaviour regarding John McCain this time around. Isn't the left suppose to be better then that?

This is John McCain people! The guy who said the US could be in Iraq for 100 years? The guy who's seemingly abandoned most of what he stood for to pander to the NeoCon and religious right crowd? The guy who seemingly has no intention of getting the US out of the mess W put it in? There are plenty, plenty of reasons not to vote for John McCain and to criticize him as a candidate for the Presidency of the United States.
There's no need to go after the man's war record.

And if you want to talk about weak arguments, talk to the guy who wrote the article in question. Essentially it bowls down to "no one cares that I was a POW emot-gonk1.gif"
If you're jealousy of the man means you won't vote for him, fine, go ahead. That's your right. Don't try and pass it off as a legitimate "insiders look" into the real John McCain though.
DarkNarcoleptic
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 21 2008, 10:38 AM) *
*puts on dungeon master hat and waits in public bathroom*

laughlol.gif
Agent Zero
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 21 2008, 11:06 AM) *
The statement released by a representative of the McCain campaign after it was made public that McCain wasn't in the "cone of silence" during Obama's questions at Saddleback.

QUOTE
"The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,"


The statement released by a representative of the McCain campaign after bloggers on the interwebs started noticing that McCain's "cross in the dirt" story looked awfully plagiarised:

QUOTE
It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman's memory of war from the comfort of mom's basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others.



Yeah, McCain's campaign is totally not using his former POW status for easy political gain...

edit: Damn you English! skeletor.png

Yes, the McCain campaign (that's fun to say) is trotting out his war record at every possible opportunity. It's easy for the Obama campaign to defend though.

"John McCain's status as a former POW and a war hero, while honourable, is not a prerequisite for the Office of the Presidency of the United States."

That's all they have to say when the issue comes up. That's it.
There's no need to try and tarnish the war record itself. To do so is, IMO, the very essence of asshatery.
Lord Madhammer
QUOTE (( . Y . ) @ Aug 21 2008, 10:41 AM) *
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 21 2008, 10:38 AM) *
*puts on dungeon master hat and waits in public bathroom*

laughlol.gif

*rolls 20 to save*
DarkNarcoleptic
*stall door opens*

You attack the stall. -2 experience.

Larry Craig approaches!
Lord Madhammer
*uses Shield of Heterosexuality*
Haggisjin
Further and further off topic but too funny not to post

Click to view attachment
ROSEDOGGYDOG
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 05:57 PM) *
QUOTE (Agent Zero @ Aug 20 2008, 07:34 PM) *
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 20 2008, 07:47 PM) *
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 20 2008, 06:39 PM) *
I just thought it was interesting considering that everytime somebody says something bad of McCain his campaign goes "You're insulting the HONOR OF A WAR HERO?!! HOW DARE YOU!".

The sad reality is that in this country, you can say a Democrat isn't *really* a war hero because how can he be, he's a Democrat... and it sticks.

My point is that it was a dickish move by the GOP and the right to try and tarnish John Kerry's war record in 04 and it's dickish for the Dems and the left to try and tarnish John McCain's war record.
With both candidates the opposition had/has plenty of legitimate reasons to attack the candidate. There's no need to sink as low as insulting the candidate's war record.

The GOP and the right was guilty of this in 04 and it seems the left is guilty of this in 08, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Dems jump on the bandwagon. It sucks and it's low, even by political standards, regardless of who does it.
It's the "adult" version of vandalizing a war memorial.

Whoa, whoa, whoa..... you're making a lot of assumptions there. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was a 527 organization that wasn't part of the GOP. Now you can debate as to whether or not there was any behind-the-scenes collusion, but my guess is that that wasn't the case. Not that they wouldn't have been happy to have the help. And in this case, you're talking about one freaking guy.

Really, I get that people are cynical about politics. I get it. But let's base our cynicism on reality rather than supposition and weak arguments.


*runs to LMH with arm wide open like I'm gonna bear hug, stops short offers fist bump, prays to allah nobody else sees me, quickly scoots back to my side of fence*
Haggisjin
*sees RDD tap his feet, extend his fingers under the LMH's stall*
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