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Stormtrooper53
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 13 2008, 09:59 AM) *
*googles "Lt. Col. Jean Dubois"*

laughlol.gif

I'm surprised you're the only one that bothered.

That is one of my favorite books, and probably for the same reasons it is so controversial. There's a lot of wisdom in that little "junior novel," IMO.
Nomolos
QUOTE (Agent Zero @ Aug 13 2008, 06:46 AM) *
The truth of the matter is, that the Confederate States of America did have some legal ground to stand on concerning them leaving the American Union.


Bestimus Mucho
QUOTE (Stormtrooper53 @ Aug 12 2008, 12:53 PM) *
Yeah, I wouldn't trust Rick Perry so much.

What actually happened is that James Polk signed a treaty of annexation with the Republic of Texas in 1844, but the senate rejected the treaty. Polk knew that the treaty would never pass the Senate because it required a two-thirds majority, so he changed tack and tried to get the annexation passed as a joint resolution, which only required a simple majority.


For the record, Polk couldn't have done this in 1844 because he didn't take office until 1845. John Tyler did all this, however he was inspired by Polk's winning of the November election, and the bill was passed in Feb of 1845, after Polk had been sworn in.


Sorry for the nitpick, but I'm kind of a JKP geek, if there is such a thing. Blame They Might Be Giants...
Agent Zero
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 13 2008, 02:37 PM) *
QUOTE (Agent Zero @ Aug 13 2008, 06:46 AM) *
The truth of the matter is, that the Confederate States of America did have some legal ground to stand on concerning them leaving the American Union.




At the end of the day though the legal justification for the CSA leaving the Union was pointless, as was the Federal government's response of "they can't leave the Union because interpret the Constitution this other way."
And I would argue that the CSA didn't have the right to separate because, as has been brought up before, governments become powerless if you grant anyone the universal right to just walk away.

In the end the CSA's "right" and ability to separate was decided by force. The Union and Confederate armies met, and the Union side won, thus deciding the question of the south's ability to leave the Union.
If you guys want to go at it again, sure. The end result of that, however, will be determined once again by force of arms, one way or the other. Not by arguing "universal rights vs what the law says."

That would be interesting to see, actually. If nothing else then for the international reaction.
Nomolos
*shoots a yankee*






what? he was kidding? crap, HEY BUBBA WE GOT ANOTHER "MISTAKENLY SHOT YANKEE". YEA, 3 FEETS GOOD ENOUGH. JUST THROW SOME DIRT OVER IT.
Hobbes-timus Prime
I figured as long as we were proving our points with quotes in this thread, one prominent American denounced the actions of Russia by saying:

"In the 21st century nations don't invade other nations."

It was Senator John McCain. Oh, the irony.
Haggisjin
Yeah, I posted that in the general election thread optimuslaugh2.gif
Stormtrooper53
QUOTE (Not Letting The Acronym Go @ Aug 13 2008, 06:54 PM) *
QUOTE (Stormtrooper53 @ Aug 12 2008, 12:53 PM) *
Yeah, I wouldn't trust Rick Perry so much.

What actually happened is that James Polk signed a treaty of annexation with the Republic of Texas in 1844, but the senate rejected the treaty. Polk knew that the treaty would never pass the Senate because it required a two-thirds majority, so he changed tack and tried to get the annexation passed as a joint resolution, which only required a simple majority.


For the record, Polk couldn't have done this in 1844 because he didn't take office until 1845. John Tyler did all this, however he was inspired by Polk's winning of the November election, and the bill was passed in Feb of 1845, after Polk had been sworn in.


Sorry for the nitpick, but I'm kind of a JKP geek, if there is such a thing. Blame They Might Be Giants...

I would say that this is not a nitpick. Thanks for pointing that out.
Nomolos
you notice how we all spend lots of time defending what we say with stuff like "sorry for the nitpick" even though he's providing facts.
that's kind of sad and says a lot about the over sensitive nature that we cultivate with all the PC crap.
Haggisjin
I don't understand how someone can be insulted if you provide factual information.
Nomolos
nevertheless he felt like he needed to write that. Shrug.gif

personally I don't think people should get offended or have to apologize. but that's not reality.
Bestimus Mucho
Well I appologized because it was something that wasn't necessarily pertinent to the conversation. Had I not pointed it out the point would not have been lost. If I had made a comment that totally destroyed someone's argument and validated mine I wouldn't have appologized, but seeing as it was more about my OCD than anything else I do.

Also Polk was a bad ass. He'd make your momma hit batch and have you watch while he had his way with her. He did it to England and Mexico anyway.
Lord Madhammer
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 14 2008, 09:56 AM) *
nevertheless he felt like he needed to write that. Shrug.gif

personally I don't think people should get offended or have to apologize. but that's not reality.

Keep that in mind for 2042

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080814/D92HVBHO1.html
Stormtrooper53
Oooh, does that mean that in 2042 I, as a white heterosexual male, will finally belong to a "protected class?" [/Human Resources]
Bestimus Mucho
QUOTE (Stormtrooper53 @ Aug 14 2008, 11:50 AM) *
Oooh, does that mean that in 2042 I, as a white heterosexual male, will finally belong to a "protected class?" [/Human Resources]



no, that doesn't happen until there is less of you than another race. .
Stormtrooper53
So, what...2043 then?
ROSEDOGGYDOG
I know what you are refereing to ST53.
Haggisjin
I'm an ethnic minority. tmyk.gif
Nomolos
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Aug 14 2008, 07:38 AM) *
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 14 2008, 09:56 AM) *
nevertheless he felt like he needed to write that. Shrug.gif

personally I don't think people should get offended or have to apologize. but that's not reality.

Keep that in mind for 2042

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080814/D92HVBHO1.html


i'll be in my late 60's. my kids are hispanic/white. either way they win.
Stormtrooper53
Yeah, my kids are straight honky. They're doomed...DOOOOOMMMED!!
Nomolos
hawhaw.png
SkyClonus
I wish it would happen sooner so my daughter could get into good colleges via affirmative action.
Haggisjin
Yeah, it'll suck only being the largest ethnic group instead of the largest ethnic group and majority.


Although, to get affirmative action, it'd really help if black guys came and kidnapped you all, sent you to East Africa on a slave ship, force youd and your decendants into slave labor for about 100 years (make sure to break up those families and disallow education!), then set them free but subjected them to horrific discrimination and oppression for another 100 years or so.

Then you'd be a shoe in.
Nomolos
yea, because all of us alive today owe it to somebody for what happened 200 years ago right?
I know let's have the jews send all the germans to concentration camps too, that'll put things right. also don't you think spain should be responsible for the poverty in Mexico?
hmmm since the colonies were Englands when the slavery started, maybe they should do some reparation over here.
Darth Caine
[icebreaker]



[/icebreaker]
Haggisjin
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 15 2008, 08:45 AM) *
yea, because all of us alive today owe it to somebody for what happened 200 years ago right?


Not at all, but signing a few new laws in the 60's and then going "we cool?" isn't going to change the massive social and economic disparity that was intentionally inflicted. I'm not saying it's a perfect solution by any means, but it was put in place for a reason that's all. Shrug.gif


I'm also completely for programmes that help families who's income is too low to provide their children with Tertiary education, regardless of ethnicity. Here's Australia's way of doing it (which again, isn't perfect).

also laughlol.gif to Caine's post.
ROSEDOGGYDOG
So Russians vs. Georgians has now been boiled down to affirmative action?

Hobbes-timus Prime
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 15 2008, 01:04 PM) *
So Russians vs. Georgians has now been boiled down to affirmative action?

No, just taken off topic.
Haggisjin
Things stay on topic here? wtf1.gif
Darth Caine
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 15 2008, 10:07 PM) *
Things stay on topic here? wtf1.gif


That would be a miracle.
Darth Caine
Haggisjin
This article in The Nation is really the best take on the issue I've read. It actually bothers to talk about the history of the region, and the way that the politics of US/Russian relations are being exploited through the whole thing.


This week has been a big holiday in Japan, so I've had no work. So I decided to actually educate myself on the history of South Ossetia and Georgia, which is a big subject btw, and I found this article explains how it all relates to the current conflict fairly succinctly.
ROSEDOGGYDOG
Without getting into walls of text, Russia is making threats against Poland for allowing the US to setup missle defense there.

Then Newt seems to thing that we should vote immediately to bring the Ukraine into NATO to help force Russia to withdrawl. I'll have to research why Russia would not want that.
ROSEDOGGYDOG
QUOTE (ROSEDOGGYDOG @ Aug 17 2008, 11:39 PM) *
Without getting into walls of text, Russia is making threats against Poland for allowing the US to setup missle defense there.

Then Newt seems to thing that we should vote immediately to bring the Ukraine into NATO to help force Russia to withdrawl. I'll have to research why Russia would not want that.



Well the Ukraine is helping to piss off Russia some more.

QUOTE
The proposal, made amid growing outrage among Russia's neighbours over its military campaign in Georgia, could see Ukraine added to Moscow's nuclear hitlist. A Russian general declared Poland a target for its arsenal after Warsaw signed a deal with Washington to host interceptor missiles for America's anti-nuclear shield.

The move came as the Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev, signed a cease-fire deal that sets the stage for a Russian troop withdrawal after more than a week of warfare with its neighbour Georgia.

The deal calls for both Russian and Georgian forces to pull back to positions they held before fighting erupted on August 8. As of last night, though, there was little apparent evidence of a Russian pull-out from the Georgian town of Gori, which Russian tanks and troops took last weekend. Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, insisted a broader withdrawal would be contingent on further security measures.

Just hours before Mr Medvedev put his signature to the ceasefire deal, Russian forces blew up a Georgian railway bridge on the main line west of the capital, Tbilisi, an act that critics interpreted as a malacious attempt to cripple the country's infrastructure. Moscow at first issued a denial, but television footage shot by the Reuters news agency clearly showed the bridge's twisted remains.

Ukraine said it was ready to give both Europe and America access to its missile warning systems after Russia earlier annulled a 1992 cooperation agreement involving two satellite tracking stations. Previously, the stations were part of Russia's early-warning system for missiles coming from Europe.

"The fact that Ukraine is no longer a party to the 1992 agreement allows it to launch active cooperation with European countries to integrate its information," a statement from the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry said.

It follows a declaration earlier this week from Ukraine's pro-Western president, Viktor Yushchenko, that the Russian naval lease of the Ukrainian Black Sea port of Sebastopol would be scrapped if any vessels joined the conflict in Georgia.

The crisis over Russia's display of military might in Georgia has alarmed ex-Soviet satellites states in a broad arc from the Baltics to Central Asia. Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, all of which harbour bitter memories of Soviet occupation, have expressed solidarity with the Georgian position.

Yesterday President George W. Bush hailed what he saw as progress in resolving the Georgia crisis, describing the ceasefire agreement as "a hopeful step."

He reiterated, though, that the disputed regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia remained part of Georgia, despite Moscow's insistence that they should now be allowed to become part of Russia. "There's no room for debate on this matter," said Mr Bush. "The international community is clear that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia and the US fully recognises this reality."

Meanwhile, disturbing reports of abuse of ethnic Georgians in captured parts of the disputed region emerged. A group of captive soldiers were paraded in the streets of the South Ossetian capital, Tskinvali, and the bodies of at least 40 dead troops rotted in the sun.

Teams of ethnic Georgians, some under armed guard, were forced to clean the streets. It was the first apparent evidence of humiliation or abuse of Georgians in the Russian-controlled breakaway republic.


Haggisjin
Ok, on that missile defence in Poland thing...

The US claims that the missile system is aimed at protecting the United States and its allies from long range missiles that could in the future be fired by Iran, North Korea or groups such as al-Qaeda (because they obviously have ICBMs....).

However, last spring Putin offered Bush the use of Gabalin radar facilities in Azerbaijan, which is on the Iranian border. Due to their positioning and power, they'd be a better location. Putin had already gotten agreement from Azerbaijan’s President Ilham Aliev to let the US use the sites. The Bush Administration largely ignored this offer. Then they hurriedly managed to get the Polish to agree with something they had been stalling over for the last two years, during the Russia/Georgia hostilities. (remember Poland used to be a Soviet state).

That pretty much showed that the main target of the defense system was to nullify Russia's arsenal, completely erradicating the concept of detente and returning to the Cold War days of escalating tensions. Russia's threatening of Poland was a reminder that under previously existing Russian military doctrine, any state hosting military installations of the US would be subject to a nuclear attack if there where to be open hostilities. It wasn't so much a threat, but a reminder of reality.


Basically, what the Bush administration did was a completely stupid act seemingly intentionally designed to piss off Russia and say "We're stronger than you", which will almost guarantee an increase in Russian military spending (possibly including returning to development objects they'd previously abandoned as part of treaties such as orbital missile platforms, which could circumvent the US defence shield.).

skeletor.png
Blitz-Wing
The latest

Poti is still occupied and Russia is taking their sweet time to pull back. I think the occupation in Poti is a clear sign that Russia is trying to cut off oil supplies. Interesting, though, that the article headline says a US HumVEE was captured yet the article only mentioned the SUV once.
Darth Caine
QUOTE
Russia won support Thursday from China and Central Asian states in its standoff with the West over the Georgia conflict as the European Union said it was weighing sanctions against Moscow.

Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev said he hoped the "united position" of a summit of Central Asian nations would "serve as a serious signal to those who try to turn black into white."

The West has strongly condemned Russia's military offensive in Georgia this month and Medvedev's decision to recognise the breakaway Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states.

Ratcheting up pressure on Russia, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, whose country holds the presidency of the European Union, said the 27-nation bloc was preparing sanctions on Moscow.

EU leaders meet Monday in Brussels for an emergency summit to press demands for a further Russian withdrawal from Georgia.

"Sanctions are being considered, and many other means," Kouchner said in Paris.

China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan voiced support for Russia's "active role" in resolving the conflict in Georgia, according to the draft of a joint statement released by the Kremlin.

Leaders from the countries met in the Tajik capital of Dushanbe as the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, a regional group set up in 2001 to counter NATO influence in the strategic Central Asia region.

On Wednesday, the Group of Seven industrialised powers strongly condemned Russia's recognition of the two rebel regions.

"We deplore Russia's excessive use of military force in Georgia and its continued occupation of parts of Georgia," said the statement from Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United States.

Former Georgian president Eduard Shevardnadze warned meanwhile that Russia's recognition of the regions would boomerang on Moscow.

"They will live to regret it," Shevardnadze said in an interview in Japan's Asahi Shimbun newspaper, adding that the move would "encourage separatist movements within ethnically diverse Russia."

Russia claims it had to act after Georgia on August 7 launched an offensive to retake South Ossetia, an attack that South Ossetia's prosecutor general said Thursday had killed 1,692 people, according to the Interfax news agency.

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier on Thursday called on Moscow to allow an international probe into the allegations of abuses.

"(Moscow) alleges that there atrocities were meted out on the South Ossetian population. Russia or South Ossetia must document whether this is the case and to what extent," Steinmeier told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung daily.

On a visit to Ukraine on Wednesday, British Foreign Secretary David Miliband warned Russia not to start a new Cold War.

But he also conceded that isolating Russia would be counterproductive because the West relied on cooperation with Moscow to tackle global problems like climate change and nuclear non-proliferation.

"The Russian president says he is not afraid of a new Cold War. We don't want one," Miliband said, adding: "He has a big responsibility not to start one," he added.

Russia has lashed out at the West for ratcheting up tensions in the Black Sea and warned that attempts to isolate Moscow could lead to an economic backlash.

Officials said they were monitoring a growing NATO naval presence in the Black Sea, as the second of three US ships sent to deliver aid arrived in Georgia.

Moscow has accused the West of using aid shipments as a cover for rearming Georgia after the Russian military surge into Georgia this month left much of the Georgian military in tatters.

"Certainly some measures of precaution are being taken," said a spokesman for Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, Dmitry Peskov. "It's not a common practice to deliver humanitarian aid using battleships."

In a reminder of Russia's energy muscle, he also warned against trying to isolate Moscow.

"Any attempts to jeopardise this atmosphere of cooperation... would not only (have) a negative impact for Russia but will definitely harm the economic interests of those states," Peskov said.

Russia moved its own naval forces to the Abkhaz port of Sukhumi, where they got a rapturous reception from Abkhaz leader Sergei Bagapsh.

In Tbilisi, the secretary of the Georgian national security council, Alexander Lomaia, told AFP that Russian troops would leave the key Black Sea port of Poti on Thursday or Friday "as a result of international pressure."

No confirmation of such a move was forthcoming from the Russian side.

In the Georgian port of Batumi, the second of three ships sent by Washington arrived with aid for some of the 100,000 people that the UN refugee agnecy estimates have been displaced in the conflict.
Darth Caine
QUOTE
RUSSIA last night provoked fresh fears of a Cold War by boasting it has tested a new long-range nuclear missile.

Moscow’s military chiefs revealed their Topol intercontinental stealth rocket had been fired successfully.




The chilling declaration was aimed at sparking international alarm about the conflict in the Caucasus, diplomats claimed.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband tried to calm the crisis by saying no country wants “all-out war” with Russia.

But he admitted the invasion of Georgia has brought an end to peace in Europe.

Russia’s Interfax agency said: “The experimental warhead section of the rocket hit its pre-determined target with high accuracy at the firing range.”

Advertisement

The RS-12M Topol, designed to dodge defence systems, has a range of 6,125 miles — enough to reach Britain — with a 550-kiloton warhead capable of devastating a 14-mile wide area.

It was launched from the spaceport at Plesetsk to the Kamchatka Peninsula in Russia’s Far East. But Russia’s own allies condemned leaders Dmitry Medvedev and Vladimir Putin

The Shanghai Cooperation Organisation slammed the Kremlin for its aggression against neighbouring Georgia.



The SCO, made up of China and Black Sea states, said: “Relying on the use of force has no prospects and hinders a settlement of local conflicts.

“We urge the sides to solve problems peacefully.”

The EU talked of sanctions unless Moscow backs down.

Britain postponed September’s military exercises in Georgia — a day after Moscow warned such moves could be tantamount to a declaration of war.But Russia last night accused the UK of direct involvement in helping Georgia’s armed forces.General Anatoly Nogovitsyn alleged the charity Halo Trust, once linked to Princess Diana, is training bomb technicians.The conflict in Georgia continues with South Ossetia claiming to have shot down an unmanned Georgian spy plane.
Haggisjin
QUOTE (Caine @ Aug 29 2008, 05:47 AM) *
RUSSIA last night provoked fresh fears of a Cold War by boasting it has tested a new long-range nuclear missile.


All Russia needs to do is claim that the missile is going to be used to defend them from al Qaeda and everything will be cool.
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